72yr old grandma gets tazered

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In Texas if you refuse to sign the ticket you will earn yourself a “Go Directly to Jail” card.
That wasn't the law way back when (Ronnie Reagan was in his first term when I last wrote a citation). Back then it was mostly our discretion and responsibility to make the right decision on who to book and who to release. Occasionally we ran across someone who gave all indications that they were going to do the responsible thing, but they refused to sign the ticket because they believed it was an indication they were guilty. Go figure, it says in big bold letters, "THIS IS NOT AN ADMISSION OF GUILT". If their identification was valid, they appeared to be the kind of person who had the dough to pay the ticket, and if we felt good about it, we had the ability to write "REFUSED TO SIGN" and release them. But that decision, when made responsibly, was rare. I doubt that I ever did more than one or two a year like that. 99.999% of the people who refused to sign bought themselves a ticket to jail.

Some of my lazy brethren would not do the right thing and book someone that they should have and instead did the "refused to sign" thing. And that meant somebody had to go find them later if they didn't show up to court. The powers that be got smart and started routing the warrants directly to the offending officer's supervisor with directions for the officer to go make the arrest. The number of bogus "refused to sign" citations dropped significantly, as did the number of "failure to appear" warrants.

When my kids learned how to drive I gave both of them the same advice about how to deal with the police if they are ever stopped. The side of the road is never the place to argue legal matters. Cops are part of the criminal justice system, but they don't administer justice. They're gatekeepers who evaluate if you need to be introduced into the system and how to accomplish that as smoothly and as expeditiously as possible. They make mistakes just like anybody else, but arguing with them only leads them to reevaluate how to introduce you to the system. Better to get a ticket than have to make bond from jail and pay to have your car towed. No matter how sure you are that you don't deserve a ticket and you're being treated unfairly, just accept the ticket and get past the stop. Your shot at justice comes after you leave the scene of the traffic stop.

It's common for people to "talk their way into jail", and to run into people that you can't "talk out of going to jail." About the last thing I wanted to do most nights was make the drive all the way to downtown to book somebody for a minor offense that most people got a citation for. There I would be, practically pleading, "Just sign the ticket and you don't have to go to jail, I don't have to tow you car and cost you all that money....Please!" But, nooooo. They were too damn smart, they knew their rights and they weren't going to let some dumb cop screw them over. Most of them snapped once the handcuffs were on and said "I'm sorry, I'll sign the ticket." Then I would have to explain that there is no such thing as "un-arresting" someone. Once I put my hands on you, it's the irreversible first step toward jail.
 
No, the choice is sign the ticket or go to jail. A traffic violation like speeding is a criminal offense - the lowest category of criminal offense to be sure - and there has to be some kind of surety that the defendant will satisfy the court on the charges. That means pay the ticket or go to court.

Thanks for all that info - great.

One we all live with in this country is the fact that -"Ignorance of the law is not an excuse if you break a law."
 
Interesting to hear what goes down from the other side. All I can add is that age is no excuse for bad behaviour.
 
This might be getting more into the inner workings than should be aired, but it is typically taught that once the decision to arrest has been made the decision shouldn't be changed at all, for any reason. The general way things go is the officer asks the subject to do something, then tells them to do something, then makes them do it. Since The officer can not make a person sign a traffic citation the last one is dropped. Even using some of the most PR friendly philosophies out there, the person is only told/requested five times. After that it is no longer in the hands of the subject, it becomes the job and responsibility of the officer to take the appropriate action. In this encounter from what was shown on the video the officer had full rights to go hands on when the woman took a "fighters' stance" just after she exited the vehicle. He seemed to use good judgment in not taking her to the ground at that point.

As to what the officer could have done other than Tase the woman, he could have sprayed her with pepper spray, or grab/strike her. Personally I don't like using pepper, because even with favorable winds it gets on everything and I really don't like it under my contacts. Not too mention it could wind up escalating the situation since many people will try to take advantage of an incapacitated officer. So that leaves grabbing and striking. As someone else eluded to that results in a violent confrontation and normally injuries to at least one person. Since I plan on going home at night, guess who is most likely going to be injured.
 
Leonidas, thanks for the great posts. I don't think there should be any more questions after that. I don't think people realize how times have changed regarding law enforcement. A short story: A while back I was stoopped by a sherrif deputy for making an illegal turn. With lights blazing, I pulled into a strip mall to await my fate. I don't know what took him so long to exit his patrol car so I got out of my car and started to walk back to him. I was always taught this was the proper respect for an oficer. The officer got out of his car, ducked down behind his car door and screamed at me to get back in my car. It appeared that he was was down on one knee and might have had he gun drawn. I was stunned and just stood there. He screamed at me again to get back in my car and so I obeyed. Then he approached my car cautiously and asked for my license, etc. After explaining why he stopped me and the general discussion about my violation and the ticket, we had a pretty good discussion. I was fumming but his explanation calmed me. He said that when you stop someone you always have to expect the worse case senario. When I got out of my car, he didn't know my intentions. I'm a pretty good sized man and I could have been "packing heat". This is the way they are trained and now I understand. After a nice discussion and noting that I was courteaus, 71 years old and meant no harm, he thanked me for my being so considerate and voided my ticket. It was a lesson well learned. That is why I posted like I did earlier. I am all for the police officers (albeit some bad ones) and respect the job they have to do.
 
LEO, correct me if I am wrong. The proper way to have an officer approach you is this: pull off the road or into a parking lot at the earliest safe opportunity. Lower window. Keep hands in plain sight on 10 and 2 on steering wheel. When the officer approaches, be polite and follow directions. Make slow movements. Wait until instructed to reach for the registration in glove box and license in your pocket. Do so deliberately and slowly.

Good way to avoid getting tazed and/or shot. Some may say we don't need to concede our rights to LEO in that manner. I'm just saying, I'd rather not get accidentally tazed or shot due to misconstrued actions, regardless of how much my estate may eventually recover for police brutality.
 
So that leaves grabbing and striking. As someone else eluded to that results in a violent confrontation and normally injuries to at least one person. Since I plan on going home at night, guess who is most likely going to be injured.

There are a lot of hypotheticals in this thread. I'll suggest another:

Tazing a 72 year old could have caused a heart attack and killed her.

"Taser International recommends not using the weapon on people who are physically infirm or elderly."

If she died, would we be having this conversation? Would it be justified to kill someone for a traffic stop, even if she had a lying, flithy, mouth?

Burn the village to save it! :flowers:
 
There are a lot of hypotheticals in this thread. I'll suggest another:
OK, I'll go next.

"Grandma" is very likely some misearble, god-forsaken Grandpa's wife. For years he's been living with what this unfortunate cop experienced for only a few minutes.

If Grandpa had the Taser, what would he have done? :D
 
Eventually he would have asked for a new set of batteries for it.

I think Taser is working on a version that you plug into the wall outlet for cases like this.
 
"Taser International recommends not using the weapon on people who are physically infirm or elderly."

You are correct. Fortunately for the officer he went to a training course that instructed him when exactly Taser International recommends the use of it's equipment and when the agency authorizes the use of a Taser. I've seen policies as liberal as, "I told you once, but you failed to comply so zap!" I've also seen policies as stringent as, "I told you fifteen times, I tried to use hand techniques, and I tried pepper spray, but none of them worked so, zap!" It is up to the agency to determine when the issued tools will be used. In this case it was clearly shown that the officer tried at least one time to restrain the woman using his hands, but she pulled away. That limits what else the officer could do. He either has to go harder with his hands, use spray (not normally a good option in an open environment) or use the Taser.
 
There are a lot of hypotheticals in this thread. I'll suggest another:

Tazing a 72 year old could have caused a heart attack and killed her.

"Taser International recommends not using the weapon on people who are physically infirm or elderly."

If she died, would we be having this conversation? Would it be justified to kill someone for a traffic stop, even if she had a lying, flithy, mouth?

Burn the village to save it! :flowers:

But the way I view this is, the officer didn't taze the woman, the woman (literally - "I dare you") asked to be tazed, by her actions and words.

So, if a 72 YO woman is so concerned about the possible ill effects of being tazed, why push the officer into it?

We also are not seeing the cuts from the video - I'm guessing that those are the many times he tried to talk her down and calm her, but that wouldn't make good TV.

So saying that the cop would be "responsible" for her death as a result of tazing her, is like saying a cop is responsible for kidnapping (held against your will), if he catches a bank robber, and that bank robber serves time (held against his will). The bank robber did it to himself by his actions, this lady did it to herself by her actions. She is not a victim, she is an instigator.

-ERD50
 
You mean, "Great" Grandma.
Bet ole Grandpa has got a new idol.

I can just see Grandpa now. Watching that video and when the officer reaches for the taser, Grandpa is screaming, "YES, YES, shot the ......"

When it's just a taser, he goes "aw heck".

OK, I'll go next.

"Grandma" is very likely some misearble, god-forsaken Grandpa's wife. For years he's been living with what this unfortunate cop experienced for only a few minutes.

If Grandpa had the Taser, what would he have done? :D
 
The hilarious part is that having been around police a lot, that officer was originally just going to tell the guy to slow it down. Done all the time. More of a courtesy call and a wake up. The driver is immediately a confrontational jerk to the cop who kinda lets out a sigh, like "oh geez, one of these".

The driver is packing a .38 Micro Eagle in that Uncle Mike holster. Notice he keeps his right hand in a drawing position, lucky copper.
Hope the young guy ended up in the holding cell with Grandma.

Back in the good ole days, the Redondo Beach police would have had fill out their report, "man brought in unable to speak due to "......".

Seeing as we are having so much fun with this video and i guess the comments have about run thier course how about another one..
YouTube - MAN GETS TASED BY BORED UTAH COP
 
Jambo.... if that is the video you want to present as 'bad police'.... well, you better look for another... I think he did a good job...

The guy was being a jerk... not listening to the cop... and even after being arrested was being a jerk... 'read me my rights', 'read me my rights'.... 'I should know what I am being arrested for...' 'I want to explain....'

Even the cop said it is not the place to explain on the side of the road....

If he were smart... he signs the ticket... goes back and takes pictures of what he was saying and IN COURT argues his case before a judge or a jury...

IMO, you can discuss with the cop what you are doing and if you think something different... but once he starts to write the ticket... then nothing else should be said....
 
Jambo.... if that is the video you want to present as 'bad police'.... well, you better look for another... I think he did a good job...

..
I didnt post it as an example of good cop bad cop, just as another Tazing incident resulting from a drivers failure to sign a ticket.
If the guy was packing a gun of some kind i'm surprised the cop didnt say anything about it.
 
I dislike the way the news try to capitalize on sympathy words like grandma or widow . Let's face it there are a lot of real crazy people out there who happen to be grandmas or widows but the press uses those words to portray something totally different . Have you ever read where the person was a trashy loud mouthed pistol packing woman ?
 
Jambo, look at the video again. When the officer put him on the ground and handcuffs him, he removes the gun and places it on the ground in front of his car. Also note how the driver points with his left arm trying to divert the officers attention and all the while keeping his right hand near his gun. Worrisome.

AND, in Utah, everyone carries, it's pretty much accepted and would not be a big deal.

You can easily tell it's not a cell phone case cause it's way WAY bigger than a cell phone.

And that info is easily available by calling the Vernal police at the number shown, ask for Sgt. Salzano.



I didnt post it as an example of good cop bad cop, just as another Tazing incident resulting from a drivers failure to sign a ticket.
If the guy was packing a gun of some kind i'm surprised the cop didnt say anything about it.
 
Jambo, look at the video again. When the officer put him on the ground and handcuffs him, he removes the gun and places it on the ground in front of his car. Also note how the driver points with his left arm trying to divert the officers attention and all the while keeping his right hand near his gun. Worrisome.
I looked at it again and i guess you got better eyes than me because i dont see a gun. or this diversion to distract the officer.
 
I looked at it again and i guess you got better eyes than me because i dont see a gun. or this diversion to distract the officer.

I definitely see the guy going for something in his pocket. You don't see that? Good thing you aren't a cop or you would get shot from time to time. ;)
 
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