72yr old grandma gets tazered

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I got the impression that one poster was trying to infer that police target single passenger cars in order to abuse the driver without having to worry about a witness.

Do any of the ex-officers posting on this site feel they did that?
 
I got the impression that one poster was trying to infer that police target single passenger cars in order to abuse the driver without having to worry about a witness.

Do any of the ex-officers posting on this site feel they did that?

You mean the police officers don't know about the video camera!
 
Well, if you observe the Utah copper saying, "he took a ride on the taser" and "painful". It is not clear that the answer to your question would be a resounding "Yes".

EDIT: BTW, those cameras were put in to protect the officers. And as you now know, they are more and more being used to "hang" the copper. You do know that the Utah trooper Gardner is still in hiding. He has several Utah, Idaho and Montana survivalist groups threatening him and his family. Pretty sad that that tape got into the Massey family's hands.

You mean the police officers don't know about the video camera!
 
How things change. When I started driving 45 years ago, we were told that getting out of the car for a traffic stop was a good idea. The suggestion was that you put yourself at a more equal level phsychologically with the officer. If you remained in the car, you were the general on the horse and he was a foot soldier. He'd be more likely to let a fellow foot soldier off with a warning.
Interesting analogy, I wonder how well it would work with a female officer who might be less likely to have that comradely martial spirit.

To clarify my previous post - I didn't leave all violators in the car all the time. Frequently, men would be asked to step to the curb. Ladies almost never. With females who were not ladies it just depended. If there was a reason I wanted to be able to focus on writing the ticket, running warrant checks, to get out of the humid weather, or to not be standing on a busy street, I would ask them to go back and have a seat while I took care of whatever. With them in the car I knew I had an extra margin of safety during that time.
What's the best strategy to get let of with the warning today (I'm trying to be serious here)?
There are no hard and fast rules. Often, nothing you say or do is going to get you out of some kind of ticket. The violation deserves a citation no matter how great a person you are. I've had many pleasant conversation with nice and interesting people on the side of the road while writing them a citation. But I have a boss like everybody else, and if he sees me turn in a couple of tickets every shift, he can't accuse me of spending the whole eight hours flirting with sexy barmaids or reading magazines at the convenience store.

And cops are the folks who come along and have to look at the dead and injured when a well-intentioned usually law-abiding citizen, who is running a little late getting someplace, crashes into a car load of innocents. Motor vehicle collisions can do some horrible things to the human body. You don't forget the sight of raw meat and white bone that used to be a human being. Sometimes I might have felt bad about giving some hard working family man or woman a costly citation, but the cause is a good one and it has to be done.

If anything can sway an officer to not give you a citation, or to write you for a less serious violation, it's how you come across during the interview. Your attitude about obeying traffic laws, and the enforcement of those laws in your case, helps an officer decide if a warning is appropriate, if a citation is needed, or to write more than one violation. The objective of writing citations is to reinforce the fact that traffic laws have to be obeyed, and if I felt that a violator was receptive to that I usually didn't feel the need to be ambitious in writing citations. I've written many "defective lighting" citations with an included verbal warning about coming to a complete stop at stop signs. In cases in which people weren't receptive, I wrote the stop sign and the defective lighting as well.
 
One of the cool things about this board is to get a professionals insight into stuff that is in the news. A whole host of you are ex military, we have several doctors, and even a bankruptcy lawyers. As person who is sometimes guilty of "hey I just spent 30 minutes reading about on Wikipedia so now I am almost an expert", it is good to be reminded that something aren't as is or obvious as they look on TV.

Thanks Leonidas for taking the time to explain what goes on during a something as routine as traffic violation. I learned a lot.
 
My approach to traffic stops was the person always stayed in the vehicle while I wrote the citation. I felt it was safer for them and me. It rarely failed that someone I asked to stand someplace started walking around. This was a distraction for me and if for some reason they were run over I didn't want some civil lawyer claiming that I was the reason for the subject’s death. When it came time for the person to sign the citation I would have them step back to my car. At this point they were on camera. If the person decided to fight the ticket in court, they could not claim they did not receive the citation, because I have them on camera. Or if in fact someone did steal their ID the video could be used to exonerate the innocent and convict the guilty. This also worked to get the person out of the vehicle if the person decided not to sign the ticket. It was much easier and safer for everyone if the person was out of the vehicle and decided to resist then if they were still in the vehicle.
 
Aren't we supposed to follow an officers directions? Within reason I mean? What law is it breaking if we don't follow an officers directions? Its not resisting arrest yet, right? Failure to comply or something?

I'd never put my hands in my pockets during something like that! Last time I was stopped I kept my hands on my steering wheel until the officer requested my license and registration.

On a side note, if I'm carrying a pistol, should I also hand over my concealed carry permit during a traffic stop?
 
Well, if you observe the Utah copper saying, "he took a ride on the taser" and "painful". It is not clear that the answer to your question would be a resounding "Yes".

EDIT: BTW, those cameras were put in to protect the officers. And as you now know, they are more and more being used to "hang" the copper. You do know that the Utah trooper Gardner is still in hiding. He has several Utah, Idaho and Montana survivalist groups threatening him and his family. Pretty sad that that tape got into the Massey family's hands.

The comments by the officer do not imply he didn't know about video cameras - possibly insensitive. If you wanted to infer something; it might be that he didn't know about audio recordings or that the microphone could pick up his voice.
 
Aren't we supposed to follow an officers directions? Within reason I mean? What law is it breaking if we don't follow an officers directions? Its not resisting arrest yet, right? Failure to comply or something?
Have to dip into legalese a bit to answer that. There are detentions and then there are arrests, in both events you are not free to go until the officer says you can.

Note: Standards like reasonable suspicion and probable cause are the the same everywhere in the country. The laws discussed here (evading detention/arrest, resisting arrest/search/transportation) are specific to Texas. There are probably similar laws in other states, but there could be some very different laws as well. I think, if you act reasonable and use these as a general guideline, you shouldn't have any trouble.

Detentions are holding a person for a reasonable period of time in order to further investigate suspicions that they have committed a crime. The standard that has to be attained is that the detaining officer can articulate a set of facts that he bases that suspicion on, and any other reasonable police officer would have his/her suspicions aroused in the same way by those same set of facts. The purpose of the detention is to investigate further and either dispel the suspicion and release the person, or to confirm the suspicion and gather enough additional facts that create what is called probable cause. It is the latter standard, probable cause, that gives the officer the right to make an arrest and seek prosecution.

A traffic stop usually meets the standard of probable cause for an arrest because the officer is a direct witness to you breaking the law. But since most traffic violators are released with a citation, the courts consider them, especially in regard to searches and seizures, as detentions.

Refusing to stop is the same offense as evading arrest and you go to jail for that offense. Trying to leave before the officer releases you is also evading detention.

A detention does not automatically give the officer the right to search your person or vehicle. However, if he develops a reasonable suspicion that you might be armed, he can search you and do a limited search of your vehicle. Resisting a search is a criminal offense.

There is nothing preventing an officer from asking you to voluntarily submit to a search of your person and/or vehicle. When the weather was cold I usually would let someone put their hands in their pockets if they voluntarily submitted to a brief pat down search of the pockets to make sure they were unarmed.

During a detention you are in custody and not free to go. The officer has the right, and responsibility, to control your movements for mutual safety and liability reasons. We're not going to let you wander all around between the cars, out in traffic, or get in and out of your car whenever you feel like it. You're not going to put your hands in your pockets unless you let me check them first. You're not going to go digging around in the glove box, trunk or under the seats unless I approve it.

It's not a separate offense to refuse to obey these instructions, with the exception of running away, but don't forget that the reason you were stopped was that the officer observed you commit a criminal offense. One for which you would normally just get a citation, but one for which you can go to jail.
 
Interesting analogy, I wonder how well it would work with a female officer who might be less likely to have that comradely martial spirit.
Another example of how things change. At that time, there was no such thing as a female officer. The male ones had little to fear, at 5-10 I was considered too small to join any police force.
My 5-8 DD dropped out of RCMP training a few years ago because she didn't think she could spend her life working with people who had the attitudes of her fellow recruits (not the already serving officers). Times may change again.
 
What's the best strategy to get let of with the warning today (I'm trying to be serious here)?

I would suggest becoming an attractive young woman. :flowers:

Best bet is to not get pulled over. I make sure to not drive the car with the Dead stickers on it when I go a concert (best idea of all). Also, I use cruise control to limit my lead foot tendencies. If you do get pulled over, pull WAY over. Cops tend to be more aggressive when they are worried about getting clipped. Leave DW at home, since she argues with the cops. Accept (and sign) the ticket. You have a much better chance of beating it in court (cop doesn't show, plead down, etc) than talking them out of it on the street. Always remember, they have guns (and tasers).

Not that I have any experience with these things. :angel:
 
I would suggest becoming an attractive young woman. :flowers:



Not that I have any experience with these things. :angel:

Every cop I've talk to says that they don't cut good looking chicks any slack. One even told me he is more inclined to give them a ticket on theory that good looking girls already get away with too much stuff.

On the other hand, early in my career we had bombshell admin, that was quite possibly the world's worst driver. She once got pulled over twice on the way to work and didn't get a ticket either time. Luckily for her she married a cop (she met him at the station while going in for ticket) at which point she became well known at the local Police Dept. and got the customary citation not ticket that police officers and families seem to get.
 
Every cop I've talk to says that they don't cut good looking chicks any slack. One even told me he is more inclined to give them a ticket on theory that good looking girls already get away with too much stuff.
It certainly worked for DD, especially while she had RCMP id.
 
Sure she was belligerent, sure she deserved arrest. But you'd think a cop half her age and twice her size might have managed to get a pair of hand cuffs on her.
 
Sure she was belligerent, sure she deserved arrest. But you'd think a cop half her age and twice her size might have managed to get a pair of hand cuffs on her.
And possibly injure her, or break some bones, if she continued to struggle and resist. Not to mention the potential for a scuffle to roll into traffic on a busy, high-speed road. (I drive this stretch of road fairly frequently.)
 
That great-grandmother was going to roll that 250+ lb guy into traffic? I think you're reaching.
 
That great-grandmother was going to roll that 250+ lb guy into traffic? I think you're reaching.
Oh, good grief. I'm not talking about a scrum here -- we saw in the video how she kept her distance and wouldn't let him slap the cuffs on. It's not a "reach" to think that in the heat of the moment she could have kept running from him and, without realizing it, come dangerously close to the traffic if the incident continued on its pre-taser course.

One thing this incident has taught me is that a lot of people seem to think they know more about "good police work" than those who have gone through all the training at the academy and elsewhere.
 
Actually, Ziggy, the whole suggestion that hand cuffing her might have been dangerous, hence he's better off shooting her with a taser, seems a little preposterous.
 
Actually, Ziggy, the whole suggestion that hand cuffing her might have been dangerous, hence he's better off shooting her with a taser, seems a little preposterous.
Granted that cops sometimes tend to protect their own, but I've heard this from several people in law enforcement (a few have admittedly disagreed as well). I'll take their perspective on "proper police work" over a random non-LEO on a message board every time.
 
And I'll take common sense over what some other random poster has to offer.
 
One thing this incident has taught me is that a lot of people seem to think they know more about "good police work" than those who have gone through all the training at the academy and elsewhere.

That concept carries over to many issues - I call it the "American Idol" or empty barrel affect (makes the most noise).

People think they know what is proper without any basic knowledge about the issue. Dumbing down of America at its best.
 
Clearly common sense differs from individual to individual, but I suspect the officer involved in the incident had the best assessment of what would be the most effective and safest means of effecting an arrest.

Both she and the large guy in the Utah incident seemed totally recovered in seconds. Whether the cop would have broken her wrists trying to subdue her would most like have been up to her, she seemed eager for a brawl.
 
Actually, Ziggy, the whole suggestion that hand cuffing her might have been dangerous, hence he's better off shooting her with a taser, seems a little preposterous.

Armchair quarterbacking.........:)
 
With tasers, and especially dashboard video, the police and society are going to have to come to grips with the fact that it gets ugly out there sometimes. And there is never such a thing as a fair fight. Once force is required it just becomes a question of what is the most effective without being excessive. Force is just pain compliance - hurt them enough so that they submit to the arrest.

The only real universal rule is don't be excessive. You can't use deadly force to confront non-deadly force, and you can't keep hurting them after they've stopped resisting. End of story.
 
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