And the neocons say...

[saluki9]

what qualifications did Bush have? His daddy's name? The heroism of his national guard non-service? Being governor of a state where the governor has very little budgetary authority (most of it is in the hands of elected comissioners)? Having a brother who bilked the S&Ls out of billions?

He was basically totally inexperienced, and we are seeing the costs now.

I doubt Obama could do worse.

Hmmm, interesting post but certainly not out of character. Would you like to add what qualifications Bill Clinton had for office before running for president?

Also concerning the idea of his "non service". If you really want to avoid your service during war time, you could alway run away to England (like one of our previous presidents did) but volunteering to pilot a fighter jet is FAR from the safest job in the service.

 

[eridanus]

but volunteering to pilot a fighter jet is FAR from the safest job in the service.

When he actually showed up, that is. Of course, we can't forget that Cheney is a chickenhawk as well.

There were 23 Senators and 133 House members that voted against the war.

 

[astromeria]

volunteering to pilot a fighter jet is FAR from the safest job in the service.

Bush seems to have decided that coke was the real thing before he even finished his training.
Clinton decided that the military wasn't for him before he disgraced a uniform with dereliction of duty wasted taxpayer money on his training took the place of someone more deserving in the Guard signed up. And I wouldn't describe a low-income Arkansan accepting a Rhodes Scholarship as "running away to England."

what qualifications Bill Clinton had for office before running for president?

He earned a BS in Foreign Service from Georgetown University and worked for Senator William Fulbright while he was an undergrad. He won a Rhodes Scholarship to University College, Oxford, and then graduated from Yale Law School. He was elected Attorney General of Arksansas and then governor for something like 6 terms.

 

[F-One]

So, who would you pair with Webb?

How about Jon Tester (Montana)? I heard him on C-Span and was really impressed with his demeaner and viewpoints.

 

[youbet]

So, who would you pair with Webb?

Richard M Daley. Let's get the world organized and the gears of the machine oiled!

 

[Nords]

You might be thinking of Senator Byrd of West Virginia, he was opposed to the war and is a prominent Democrat. This is well after his time as leader of his local KKK chapter. A very "colorful" character and a (barely) breathing poster child for term limits..

Hey hey hey, no bad words about those senior senators! After Byrd it's Kennedy, and then it's Inouye with Akaka not far behind. Hawaii's trying to make every dollar vote count.

This campaign Akaka was actually ambushed by Representative Ed Case (Steve's cousin). Ed resigned his House seat and filed against Akaka without consulting the rest of Hawaii's Democratic mandarin warlords, which is considered very bad form and an unforgivable sin. Ed was promptly disowned by the party and treated like a black sheep while other Dems gleefully jumped into Ed's House seat (Maizie Hirono, a former state lieutenant governor and aspiring governor). Ed actually sucked Akaka into a debate where it was clear that Akaka's strengths were his committee seniority and his political staff. All Ed had was energy and fresh ideas... which he's gonna need a lot of now that he has to find a real job. And real friends. And actually live in the state, or decide to go somewhere else.

So, who would you pair with Webb?

Hey, first let's see if Webb gets along well enough with his 99 shipmates for long enough to serve out a full term. It sure didn't happen at the VA or at SECNAV...

I'll bet he has a difficult time adapting to the Senate's seniority/patronage/committee system, let alone encouraging a bunch of old balding white guys to fund his Presidential campaign fund. He's always been pretty outspoken and I bet he starts shooting from the lip next year. And I don't think Webb's "Why Women Can't Fight" article, despite being written in 1979, will exactly resonate with voting soccer moms.

 

[greg]

I like Al Gore. He's a known quantity and been reasonably non-active in partisan politics the past couple of years. This can't be a bad thing for most voters to remember and unlike Kerry. He's also been pushing the environmental stuff, which could be very good for everybody--even the neo-cons--over time. If he brought cleaner energy and other green ideas to the table, it could could be a nice focus/discussion point for the nation's future. Instead of 'money-money-money' and 'war-war-war.' It also might be a way to focus our attention on newer manufacturing development and large clean-up skills that this country can develop much more easily than smaller countries. This stuff is exportable too.

As yet, I'm unsure of whether I want him to win or not, but I would like to see a 'purer' discussion of where we might be headed.

I like Tester too so far. A man who saw the future, went organic, and whooped some old political butt in the process. All with a decent disposition. We'll see.

 

[Brat]

You guys know more about Webb's leadership style than I. At first glance the fact that he bumped of Allen and had military experiance looked like a plus. Resume isn't everything, as proved by Rumsfield.

Ok, let's put Tester at the top of the D ticket. Now find a VP to pair him with. Because the parties like to have some geographic diversity, who is suitable and would accept the position?

On the R side I do like McCain and although she has not been states-womanlike recently I do like Liz Dole. Unlike Hillary I do think she would accept the position.

 

[astromeria]

McCain
Liddy Dole

http://www.realchange.org/dole.htm

If you think Hillary Clinton is a strong, ambitious woman with some questionable financial dealings who has been hiding behind her powerful husband, you will get no relief from Liddy.

Elizabeth Dole is tougher, smarter, prettier, more subtle, and more ambitious than Hillary, and if she is elected this country won't know what hit it. In a hypothetical catfight, we'd bet on Liddy Dole and give 5-2 odds. And she'd make sure you never heard about it.

 

[donheff]

Elizabeth Dole is tougher, smarter, prettier, more subtle, and more ambitious than Hillary, and if she is elected this country won't know what hit it. In a hypothetical catfight, we'd bet on Liddy Dole and give 5-2 odds. And she'd make sure you never heard about it.[/i]

I saw her on a panel a week ago - hardball or something. At any rate she seemed like she was heading into doddering-ville to me. Her defense of the war was pathetic. And she has had way to much work to be described as pretty. You are better off looking your age like the senior Mrs. Bush did than going for the "social X-Ray" look as Tom Wolfe described it.

 

[bosco]

Also concerning the idea of his "non service". If you really want to avoid your service during war time, you could alway run away to England (like one of our previous presidents did) but volunteering to pilot a fighter jet is FAR from the safest job in the service.

don't you mean "actually flying a fighter jet?" there's not much danger in volunteering if you don't show up for your physical, and then disappear.

I realize Bush ran on the integrity issue. What do your feel shows more integrity--outright dodging the draft or using your daddy's connections to get an easy assignment, then skipping out on it? Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush--they're all draft dodgers. They just didn't inhale....

 

[samclem]

bosco,
Your displeasure with Bush doesn't change the facts. He completed pilot training and flew hundreds of missions in the F-106 (an airplane that was not an easy jet to fly). Volunteering for the National Gaurd is not dodging the draft.
Maybe you believe CBS's infamous "Texas National Guard" memo was legit?

 

[eridanus]

bosco,
Your displeasure with Bush doesn't change the facts. He completed pilot training and flew hundreds of missions in the F-106 (an airplane that was not an easy jet to fly). Volunteering for the National Gaurd is not dodging the draft.
Maybe you believe CBS's infamous "Texas National Guard" memo was legit?

The F-106 was an outdated jet when Bush flew it. It was strictly for continental defense. Unlike his dad, who saw action, Bush flew exactly -0- combat missions.

Using college deferment wasn't dodging the draft either. It was a legal means to delay service.

If Clinton dodged the draft, so did Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield.

 

[samclem]

I was only correcting a factual error in an early post. GWB flew F-106s as an operational pilot. I did not claim that he saw combat service. I made no claims about Clinton or any other personality.

But, I'll take the opportunity to add that there was nothing disreputable about performing the continental defense mission in the 1960s. It was certainly more comfortable than shipping out to Vietnam, but it was not without risk.

It might have been safer to sign up for ROTC under false pretenses and then fail to report. Not that anybody famous ever did that.

 

[FinanceDude]

I'm still waiting on John Kerry to unseal his military records........

 

[HFWR]

And the neocons say...

Do do do do do
Do do do
Do do do do do
Do do do

(With sincerest apologies to Lou Reed...)

 

[saluki9]

The F-106 was an outdated jet when Bush flew it. It was strictly for continental defense. Unlike his dad, who saw action, Bush flew exactly -0- combat missions.

Using college deferment wasn't dodging the draft either. It was a legal means to delay service.

If Clinton dodged the draft, so did Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield.

1. Bush Flew an F-102 which was a primary frontline combat aircraft at the time

2. He was in the service for 5 years

3. Junior officers generally don't get to choose whether to go into combat or not.

4. Flying fighters isn't a safe assignment whether you were stationed in Thailand (for Viet Nam missions) or Texas.

 

[Martha]

And the neocons say...

Do do do do do
Do do do
Do do do do do
Do do do

(With sincerest apologies to Lou Reed...)

George Bush is just speeding away
Thought he was President for a day
Then I guess he had to crash
Fiscal responsibility woulda helped that bash
Said, hey babe
Take a walk on the neocon side
I said hey honey
Take a walk on the liberal side
and the Senate says
doo do doo do doo do do doo

 

[bosco]

3. Junior officers generally don't get to choose whether to go into combat or not.

4. Flying fighters isn't a safe assignment whether you were stationed in Thailand (for Viet Nam missions) or Texas.

on the other hand, if you don't report for your physical, you take care of both 3 and 4 just like that....

 

[samclem]

. . . He completed pilot training and flew hundreds of missions in the F-106 (an airplane that was not an easy jet to fly) . . .

I stand corrected by Saluki--he flew F-102s, not F-106s. Same mission, same basic design, same manufacturer. Delta Dagger (F-102), not Delta Dart (F-106).


Oh, and F-102s did participate in combat missions in Vietnam. They were definitely not well suited for that conflict, but we pressed a lot of aircraft into service there in unusual roles.

 

[FinanceDude]

George Bush is just speeding away
Thought he was President for a day
Then I guess he had to crash
Fiscal responsibility woulda helped that bash
Said, hey babe
Take a walk on the neocon side
I said hey honey
Take a walk on the liberal side
and the Senate says
doo do doo do doo do do doo

ROTFLMAO!! Now if we could get THAT piped into the Senate Chambers...........

I may be a conservative, but I find that funny..........

 

[astromeria]

Does anyone doubt that Bush pere could've gotten his son out of trouble combat just like he got him set up with investors for his businesses and into the special Guard unit? It seems possible that pere's entourage advised the change-unit and skip-your-physical maneuvers for that purpose, although I believe those were more likely helpful coincidences.

 

[youbet]

Does anyone doubt that Bush pere could've gotten his son out of trouble combat just like he got him set up with investors for his businesses and into the special Guard unit? It seems possible that pere's entourage advised the change-unit and skip-your-physical maneuvers for that purpose, although I believe those were more likely helpful coincidences.

What's the point astro? Bush served in the Guard, trained as a pilot but did not serve in combat.

 

[astromeria]

"He mighta-coulda seen combat" sounds weak to me since he essentially dropped out. Water under the bridge, however, as I imagine he'll be clearing brush, riding his bike, entertaining his base, and serving on corporate boards in a few years. Pretty good retirement

 

[FinanceDude]

"He mighta-coulda seen combat" sounds weak to me since he essentially dropped out. Water under the bridge, however, as I imagine he'll be clearing brush, riding his bike, entertaining his base, and serving on corporate boards in a few years. Pretty good retirement

Well, at least he served...........unlike some other folks in the White House...........