Electric car battery life question

[audreyh1]

Why should the Tesla battery be kept at mid-charge instead of 1) full charge, then recharge every night, or 2) full charge, then run down to low level?

The battery is under more stress at a high level of charge rather than mid range. The lowest stress on the battery is around mid range.

If you are going to use it right away, go ahead and charge up near full. If it’s going to sit around keep it around mid range.

 

[Midpack]

Maybe I need to shop around for insurance. I have always had GEICO and even now I think I pay $300 or $400 twice a year for bare bones coverage on the old Acura. I do have a high liability amount required by my umbrella policy.

Maybe the crime rate in your area matters too.

My quote was with Geico. I pay just under $400 twice a year for my ‘22 Hyundai Santa Fe, they quoted me $690 for a Model Y. No good reason I can think of to be that much more. Puts a real damper on me buying a Tesla…

 

[joesxm3]

Apparently the cost of replacing the battery pack after an accident. And also more desirable to steal?

 

[NW-Bound]

Apparently the cost of replacing the battery pack after an accident. And also more desirable to steal?

I have not heard of an EV having its battery stolen. It's a little bit harder to haul out a 1000-lb battery from under the car, compared to cutting off a catalytic converter.

 

[youbet]

Thanks. So, we should be doing the same for iPhones and iPad? Trying to keep it in the 30% - 80% charged range? I have always gone from fully charged to very low, but also notice that my batteries start losing capacity pretty early, within 2 years of purchase, which IMO isn’t long.

My long-in-the-tooth 6S iPhone has an "Optimized Battery Charging" option you can turn on under "Battery" in the "Settings" function. They say it reduces battery aging. Sounds similar to what REWahoo is describing.

 

[youbet]

The battery is under more stress at a high level of charge rather than mid range. The lowest stress on the battery is around mid range.

If you are going to use it right away, go ahead and charge up near full. If it’s going to sit around keep it around mid range.

Stress? Something related to how the chemical processes work?

 

[audreyh1]

Stress? Something related to how the chemical processes work?

I suppose. That’s what the Tesla battery experts say.

 

[audreyh1]

Well, I put my order in.

I hope it is equivalent to buying a call option on the model Y for $250. There was some language about losing the "paid" deposit or transport fee in addition to the $250 order fee.

I am guessing that as you are closer to delivery they might demand more up front. I was under the impression that once your car was ready you sent the full amount by ACH unless you played hard ball and carried in a cashier check.

I will try to ask questions on Tuesday.

I guess this fits the blow that dough category. What finally tipped me was the idea that while I could keep fixing the old car, when it breaks it might be inconvenient and I might be left car less while it is repaired. Last fix I had to rent a car.

Congratulations! When is your estimated delivery?

AFAIK the $250 deposit is the only thing you would forfeit and you don’t have to pay any more until delivery day or a couple days before. That was in 2022.

 

[joesxm3]

It says January to March, but basica!lly no idea.

There is confusion on the USA battery part of the credit with a delay until march allowing cars to qualify with any batteries.

The saleswoman pushed me to take the last one black on from inventory on Saturday saying that orders would likely be delayed and I might miss March. But when I worked at the car dealer in 1980, the motto was "sell what is available todsy" so not sure how likely the delay. Seems that every qualifying car in inventory was snatched over the weekend.

 

[audreyh1]

It says January to March, but basica!lly no idea.

There is confusion on the USA battery part of the credit with a delay until march allowing cars to qualify with any batteries.

The saleswoman pushed me to take the last one black on from inventory on Saturday saying that orders would likely be delayed and I might miss March. But when I worked at the car dealer in 1980, the motto was "sell what is available todsy" so not sure how likely the delay. Seems that every qualifying car in inventory was snatched over the weekend.

Interesting. Absolutely no cars were available from inventory during 2021 and 2022 while we waited (14 months). We even had a Y on order for a few months in early 2022 while we waited even longer for the X. The Y lead times were long too especially the long range. Fortunately our X finally came in first and we canceled the Y.

Sounds like their inventory is starting to normalize.

 

[youbet]

I suppose. That’s what the Tesla battery experts say.

Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to hand an assignment off to you instead of researching myself. Just thought it was something you might have been aware of already.

I did google around a bit. The recommended charge percentages you mentioned are given a lot, but nothing about the root cause of deterioration if you repeatedly charge to 100%

I do recall that in the day of NiCads, you needed to charge to 100% and run 'em down low or risk "memory effect." Sort of the opposite of what happens with these lithium batteries.

I know someone involved in the lithium battery industry I'll ask when I see her.

 

[audreyh1]

Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to hand an assignment off to you instead of researching myself. Just thought it was something you might have been aware of already.

I did google around a bit. The recommended charge percentages you mentioned are given a lot, but nothing about the root cause of deterioration if you repeatedly charge to 100%

I do recall that in the day of NiCads, you needed to charge to 100% and run 'em down low or risk "memory effect." Sort of the opposite of what happens with these lithium batteries.

I know someone involved in the lithium battery industry I'll ask when I see her.

No not really. That’s just the language I have read in discussions of what Tesla battery charges to use for various situations.

I think charging cycles between say 20% to 80% or whatever isn’t nearly as hard on the battery as 0-100% charging in terms of lifetime. But I can’t explain the physics or chemistry of it. Also the charge state you let your battery sit at for periods of time is important. It’s not just the charging cycles.

 

[captain3d]

Same applies to people. Try charging yourself to 100% then go and run until complete exhaustion.

I guess ICE is unique in that way that power delivery is constant.

I suspect modern Cars EV’s will be more like phones that get forced into retirement because of software requirements.

Eg sorry can not charge your old car on that system with our modern chargers please upgrade now.

 

[braumeister]

Thanks. So, we should be doing the same for iPhones and iPad? Trying to keep it in the 30% - 80% charged range?

iPhones will use "Optimized Battery Charging". Look in the Battery Health section of the Battery tab in Settings.

When I put it on the charger at night, it holds the battery to no more than 80% until shortly before I get up in the morning (it learns your schedule), then raises it to nearly 100% when it's about to be used.

 

[Alan]

Ouch.

I realize it isn't an apples to apples comparison, but insurance for my 2022 Bolt EUV is 20% less than my 2021 Toyota Highlander hybrid.

Today I trade in my Toyota Prius for a VW id.3 EV and there is no change in my insurance.

Why should the Tesla battery be kept at mid-charge instead of 1) full charge, then recharge every night, or 2) full charge, then run down to low level?

This is what VW and Nissan advise for their EVs as well. My home smart charger works with the cars api and you can set scheduled overnight charges up to a certain %. I have mine set to 80% and only charge to 100% immediately before going on a long trip.

Thanks. So, we should be doing the same for iPhones and iPad? Trying to keep it in the 30% - 80% charged range? I have always gone from fully charged to very low, but also notice that my batteries start losing capacity pretty early, within 2 years of purchase, which IMO isn’t long.

sorry - don’t want to hijack

I’m pretty sure that iOS recognizes your patterns of use and automatically adjusts the charging. We plug in our devices at night and I’m pretty sure they charge up to 100% shortly before we normally unplug and begin using them.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210512

With iOS 13 and later, Optimised Battery Charging is designed to reduce the wear on your battery and improve its lifespan by reducing the time your iPhone spends fully charged. When the feature is enabled, your iPhone will delay charging past 80% in certain situations. Your iPhone uses on-device machine learning to learn your daily charging routine so that only Optimised Battery Charging activates when your iPhone predicts it will be connected to a charger for an extended period of time. The algorithm aims to ensure that your iPhone is still fully charged when unplugged.

Optimised Battery Charging is on by default when you set up your iPhone or after updating to iOS 13 or later. To turn off the feature, go to Settings > Battery > Battery Health > Optimised Battery Charging

 

[joesxm3]

So, if I charge from 20% to 80% is that one charging cycle?

What if I charge to 80%, go to the store, plug back in and charge from 75% to 80%. Is that also a charge cycle?

Does Tesla have a setting like do not charge unless below x%?

 

[audreyh1]

This is what VW and Nissan advise for their EVs as well. My home smart charger works with the cars api and you can set scheduled overnight charges up to a certain %. I have mine set to 80% and only charge to 100% immediately before going on a long trip.

When staying in the home area I only charge to 65% and that’s generally the night before an expected errand. Then don’t charge again until it drops to around 30%. This generally lasts us a week or more.

 

[joesxm3]

Do you plug it in when not charging and control we setting, or just leave unplugged until ready to charge.

 

[audreyh1]

Do you plug it in when not charging and control we setting, or just leave unplugged until ready to charge.

I leave it unplugged most of the time and just plug it in when ready to charge overnight. I generally have charging scheduled to start at 12am unless I am going on a long trip in which case I program charging to complete just before we leave.

I picked midnight simply because the app tracks charging and that way it’s not split over 2 days.

 

[REWahoo]

My Bolt manual recommends keeping the car plugged in whenever you can. As others have mentioned, you can program the car when to charge (I have mine set to charge between 11pm and 5am when rates are low) and to what %, but keeping it plugged in even when you aren't charging allows for "battery conditioning" in extreme temps.

IOW, if the internal temp of the battery gets near freezing it will initiate the battery heater. Conversely, if the internal temp gets very warm (above 90?) the battery cooling system will come on and prevent it from getting too hot.

The battery conditioning system will function whether or not the car is plugged in, but the idea is not to have to use battery power for that system if shore power is available.

Because extreme winter temps are a rarity here in south TX, I've been lax in keeping it plugged in since purchasing it in September. Once we hit the heat of summer I'll plug it in whenever I am home.

 

[audreyh1]

It doesn’t get cold enough here and I don’t let my battery go way low so I don’t worry about keeping it plugged in. Even in hot temps there is very little drain.

And if the weather is cold or hot I often schedule the car to precondition before a trip which includes cabin temp. That also isn’t noticeable in terms of battery use.

 

[DayDreaming]

$2200 for annual insurance on a Tesla? I guess I will stop any thought of getting on. That is 5X what I pay on my 2022 Kia.

Insurance for my new Tesla Model Y is $1270/year in NJ where auto insurance tends to be expensive.

 

[REWahoo]

It doesn’t get cold enough here and I don’t let my battery go way low so I don’t worry about keeping it plugged in. Even in hot temps there is very little drain.

And if the weather is cold or hot I often schedule the car to precondition before a trip which includes cabin temp. That also isn’t noticeable in terms of battery use.

+1

My manual says the battery conditioning system works more aggressively when plugged in than on battery alone. Not sure why it does, but that's why I plan on keeping it plugged in the heat of summer.

 

[Alan]

I don’t normally leave my car plugged in but will do so when V2G becomes a reality in the hopefully not too distant future. Trials by Ovo energy with customers have shown, among other things, no discernible degradation in battery life despite charging and discharging between limits every day. Octopus (my current energy provider) are also doing trials now.

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/octopus-celebrates-successful-uk-vehicle-to-grid-v2g-trial

In a series of initial tests run in August 2022, Octopus charged and discharged the batteries of up to 20 electric cars from participating customers at times of grid imbalance.

These tests have demonstrated the potential benefit of vehicle-to-grid charging – an hour of a million electric cars exporting to the grid could generate the same amount of power as 5,500 onshore wind turbines.

 

[REWahoo]

Alan, that's an exciting opportunity to turn an idle resource into something that benefits many.

What incentive beyond altruism is offered to EV owners who participate? I read the article and it appears they could see substantial savings on charging costs but didn't understand all the terminology.