How do you deal with envy/hostility to ER?

[ESRBob]

Have been kind of blue today as an old friend and his wife, whom I had sensed were sort of pulling away, gave me a piece of their minds this weekend --a cold shower really -- over my being an ER.

Seems they are both struggling in their own careers to make ends meet, save for college, etc etc. , and rather than feeling 'great at least somebody got free' their feelings are more aptly desribed as envy and resentment, with a new feeling mixed in: ER is somehow morally wrong or at least a slap in the face to the rest of us who are working.

We talked about it enough for me to know this is the only issue between us: they went on at great length about how almost nobody could afford to do this, that it was only applicable to a tiny tiny minority and that all my statistics about millionaires were somehow bogus. That advocating ER as a lifestyle choice and something to plan for or strive for was akin to advocating people to become heirs and heiresses: it just wan't within the realm of what an individual could control or aspire to, and was just 'luck' and by extension it was unseemly to discuss one's luck or recommend somebody else to 'get lucky'.

Explaining that 'avocations are different -- you guys love what you are doing so you don't need ER' only buried me conclusively deeper. (One is a journalist and the other a community health activist/analyst in a second career).

Explains why they haven't wanted to see us for the past few years...

Anybody encountered this one? I am used to incredulity, wonder, a bit of healthy envy when people discuss ER, but not the outright resentment and coldness.

Oh well, can't please everybody, but I did always like these two: (we owned a sailboat together years ago and had lots of good times railing against the Establishment and sailing around on weekend afternoons). Anybody got any advice? (Besides just shut up about ER and fake it like you're a slave like everybody else?)

ESRBob

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I believe thats called the "ted factor"

I've actually encountered this. I usually respond with a hearty "ok then, see ya later!". I can see this sort of response if I was on heavy drugs or was never seen without a bottle of jack daniels in my hand, but ER hardly qualifies for an "intervention"...

There is some truth to ER being out of the realm of most people. Aside from people with large windfalls or very good luck, one would have to break from the mold, open a business, work very hard, and scrimp and save for a really early retirement, and at least work a couple of jobs and keep the money tight to reel it back into their 50's.

Anyone COULD do it. But the processes of "making it" arent very compatible with todays "work and spend" mentality.

If you can derive an explanation for two thing: why people brag about how many hours they work and why they'll spend more on a pair of sunglasses than a 27" color tv, you will be able to explain the force against ER. And the envy/hostility.

The mind works in funny ways. People all build a series of subconscious "beliefs", some based on facts and experiences, some based on softer "sciences" or things people told them. Feelings and ideas run through this backwater of "filters" before they even reach the conscious mind. Most are aware of the presence of only a few of the dozens, hundreds, even thousands of filters present in their brain. It doesnt help that there are contrary and opposed filters and one will be more dominant one day and another the next.

This is why two people, armed with the same facts, will argue vehemently over a topic.

What has happened here is that you've encountered two people with a set of filters that arent compatible with ER. "You have to work hard"..."people that dont work are lazy"..."people with too much money have it easy"..."we all have to be productive members of society"...etc.

Its cool when people with different filters can have a productive conversation. Its uncool when someones discomfort with their set of filters makes them hostile and want to impose them on you.

 

[unclemick]

One of lifes crosses to bear. Age 49-55, I got the most hostility from those who didn't want to hear how we did it - they had their minds made up. After 55, at least I had the early pension check to make me an 'official retiree.' Even get flack from my younger (5 yrs) sister who plans to work till they drop. Interestingly - all the kids listened over the years and actually read/got started with Bogle/index funds early. My sister would ask periodically and then ignore. I guess you either get or you don't - at least she's not hostile.

 

[ESRBob]

I believe thats called the "ted factor"

.

TH, as always, thx for your insight and reassurance. Now, ok, I'll bite -- what is the 'ted factor'?

ESRBob

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I could probably find a thread, but to summarize.

Ted was a long time poster. Pretty smart guy, economics background, good investment advice. Not ER'd though.

Usually pleasant, but every once in a while some nasty bit would fly out of him. I remember one guy who was considering having kids and asked for some advice or other. Teds response was that he should go to planned parenthood because he shouldnt be having kids. I think I just considerably "niced up" his response.

One day he decided that he couldnt participate here anymore because he didnt like the quality of some of the people posting here. He never said who, what or why, but many of us asked him to stay.

He then said we were all leeches for ER'ing and we were a drain on society, and that they only "right" thing to do was for us all to go back to work. As we tried to rationally discuss this with him, he became more and more abusive until finally everyone suggested he follow through on his original threat to leave, and he did.

One bonehead here keeps suggesting that I'm the guy who made ted want to leave. I dont think thats so, nor is there any evidence to that effect, but if it is so, I frankly dont feel that bad about it. Its nice to have a knowledgeable, helpful person to talk to. Its less nice when the person resents you and thinks your way of life is wrong. Sort of leads me to question any advice they give.

Sounds like maybe he had some things in common with your friends.

 

[ESRBob]

Re: Ted, I guess it is a huge divide - sort of a moral divide-- that if someone thinks ER is basically 'wrong' then it is hard to have a meaningful conversation. I doubt there is much that could do to change anybody's mind on something like that.

My friends are mixing up a smidgen of moral indignation with a bigger dose of 'only a few really lucky rich people could do this so why don't you just go off and not rub our noses in your good fortune' sort of thing.

That is where I get a bit defensive, because my strong sense is that, with some good luck thrown in, of course, everybody here has basically made some combination of continuous sacrifices and carefully thought out decisions, courage and sacrifice if you will, to buck the dominant culture and escape the 'gravitational pull' of the consumer economy, so it isn't really fair to characterize us as 'lucky sperm club' members. If ER were mostly the province of heirs and heiresses, I might think differently, but at least his board doesn't seem to be composed that way.

Its sort of a millionaire next door culture -- its hard to come away from that book feeling like TMND are just lucky.

ESRBob

 

[Cut-Throat]

I don't think I know that many folks that work anymore, so I don't really run into the problem that you have. Most of the folks that work, that I am introduced to, feel sorry for me because I don't have a job. 8)

Most working folks hang out at different places than I do. At the Fly shop, most everyone is retired, as well as my close friends. All of the working folks; are at work!

Never have experienced any hostillity, although a few do ask the inevitable "what do you do all day" ?

 

[Cut-Throat]

One bonehead here keeps suggesting that I'm the guy who made ted want to leave.  I dont think thats so, nor is there any evidence to that effect, but if it is so, I frankly dont feel that bad about it.  Its nice to have a knowledgeable, helpful person to talk to.

I don't think so TH!  - I think Wab may have done it. Ted Pissed me off a few times, but not near as much as Wab. They're both smart guys, but Wab was the one that got me to say 'Blow Me'

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Eh, I dont worry about it. I consider the source.

At least someone got you to say it! Consider the enrichment to our culture.

By the way, I'm slowly moving the wife-to-be in to my house. Yesterday I unpacked a bag of stuff...

You wont believe this...

A supersize 200 sheet box of dryer sheets.

The woman comes with a DOWRY!

I brought this to her attention...her comment..."Those should be good for at least a thousand washes!".

Have I found a gem or what?

 

[Bob_Smith]

ESRBob, I haven't encountered outright resentment, but I've been talking about my ER plan for years, so it came as no surprise to close friends/family. But I have noticed that they all seem to need some "excuse" for me. Since they're all aware of writing I've done, they just assume I'll be doing another book. That seems to make it "OK" in their minds. I don't tell them I'm writing (I'm not at the moment) - they just assume it, as if nobody wouldn't do something to make money.

If anyone brings it up directly with me, I rail about the dismal, demoralizing, demeaning state of most workplaces today, how there's so much more to life, how much better I feel since leaving, etc. In other words, I launch a full frontal assault on the conventional assumptions about work. I'm like a street-corner preacher. When I'm done, they're usually trying to explain to me why they haven't been able to do it. I actually enjoy telling people what I have done and why.

Also, I truly don't give a rip what anyone thinks about me - never have. I'll lose sleep if I think I messed up badly, but not if someone else thinks I did. I believe that fits with being a left-handed INTJ. It really makes this very easy for me.

 

[unclemick]

Bob_Smith

HMmmmm - Left handed, INTJ, and eleven years in ER - by golly you're right! I to polish up my sermon. heh, heh sounds good to me.

 

[Billy]

My Husband and I encountered this 14 years ago when we retired at 38. I must have been very naive at the time, thinking that friends would want the best for other friends, but such is not always the case. You must realize that this reflects THEM more than it reflects your choice.

They are unhappy, for many reasons, and after many choices, and so they cannot find it within themselves to be happy for you.

I don't know your ER story, so I don't know if you inherited a bundle, or invented something and struck it rich, or just found a million dollars on the sidewalk one day. I do know that most millionaires are just regular folk, who have worked their butts off, aren't huge consumers, and save like the dickens, like we did.

For this, I cannot apologize, but can only try and inspire others to do somewhat the same thing. Amazingly, ER is not for everyone, and for many reasons.

Also, one thing I want to state strongly here, is that just because my Husband and I no longer work for money, does not mean we don't work. The world has opened up to us now in ways we never knew before, to volunteer our expertise and services. Not having the stress to put food on the table or make a mortgage frees us up to contribute to those less fortunate. We are contributors to society now, just as we were before we retired. In some ways, even more so.

Again, remember this is a reflection of their own unhappiness. Don't bite that cookie, and you'll be happier yourself.

Akaisha
Web-site www.geocities.com/ba264

 

[Nords]

Bob, perhaps you can live without these "friends".

They must think you're beyond salvation, or at least intervention. Luck is their excuse for their own inability/lack of motivation. I bet that the harder you worked, the "luckier" you got.

If I met someone like you who figured out to meet a bunch of my own life goals, I'd want to learn how you did it (or at least get the cheat codes for my brokerage account). I certainly wouldn't waste my time pulling you back down into the crab bucket.

Maybe you should review a few quotes from the "Where do you work?" post. But if the questioner persists, I'd seize the opportunity to educate another young dreamer.

I think that sometimes it's appropriate to sympathise-- "I wouldn't be ER'd if I had your five kids to raise" but other times it's better to point out that you enjoy a less consumptive life that isn't necessarily for everyone.

Leaving the workplace separates you from your co-workers, not your friends. My spouse is still my best friend, but I keep looking for others to add to the list. You're probably a different guy now than you were years ago-- that's as it should be-- and it's a matter of finding new people who share your interests.

 

[John Galt]

I never noticed any hostility or resentment, just surprise.
I heard my ex made some disparaging comments, but
that might be just post divorce sour grapes.

John Galt

 

[ordway]

I wouldn't be surprised if my husband and I get some weird vibes from acquaintances and some family members (not all) when we ER. Right now we're 29/31 and have a general plan of ER in 5 years or so, so we're planning on bailing pretty early I would expect that anyone who currently doesn't understand why we don't spend money on an expensive [fill in the blank] just because we *could*, won't "get it" that the money we saved by living low on the hog is what will let us ER.

OTOH, our mutual best friend is also firmly aimed at the same ER goal, so we have no trouble discussing our plans and goals with him, and in fact it's fun and motivational to compare notes.

 

[platypus19]

Yes, I think there is real envy and resentment from old friends and coworkers. I wish it were not so. The only solution I have found is to build a circle of new friends.

 

[rsboone]

People don't seem to mind that I RE'd, but I get more remarks about my husband. Just last night I was at a gathering with some other women and one asked me what my husband did. I replied that he was retired and right now was home painting our living room. She replied back ok but really what does he do?

Many feel it ok for the wife to stay home and play tennis, shop, whatever but it's unacceptable for a man to do the same. I guess this is sex discrimination in reverse.

 

[newellcr]

ESRBob,

Interesting, I'm not ERed yet and won't be for some time. I've been working on the ER plan since about day 2 of my career. I ask questions and try to learn things that will help me reach the ER goal. Most folks around the office know that I have at least some knowledge when it comes to investing, taxes, and other financial questions. This creates some good opportunities to chat with folks about their situation and goals or lack there of. Most are surprised that I am interested in and have been working towards ER for a long time. Most can't figure out why I would want to leave a "good" job early. Then they help me out with you know you can retire at age x, which is pretty early. They almost always get the retirement age, x, wrong. A few suggested that if I could replace my wage income with investment income, I could keep working and really sock away the money.

My experience has been that folks lack creativity or feel they need to "do what they are told" and work for a living. Somehow it feels wrong to them to think about ER WithOut the security of a pension. These folks are everyday people. They buy their modest cars and keep them for 8-10 years (or more). They spend endless hours in research to save $3/month on a combination of phone, cable, and internet service. For the most part they wouldn't consider spending 1 hour to get a long term financial plan in place. Somehow these folks seem to be able to prove wrong "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves." I suppose they need to pay themselves first to be able to have the pounds see to their own care, but that's another thread...

Thanks for sharing your story. It's seems so strange to me that folks feel that others must be wrong if they don't do things "the right way" or "like everyone else". Life is full of choices and not being like everyone else is perfectly ok. The world is full of small minded folks who can't manage to think outside of the box. Good luck.

Kind Regards,

Chris

 

[wabmester]

I get envy, resentment, and general puzzlement, but I haven't seen outright hostility or attempts at intervention yet.

One thing I didn't expect was that I've started to see some of the spending habits of my friends as neurotic. When I was working and a friend would buy a new car, I might have felt a little competitive urge kick in. Now I feel like saying "Are you nuts? Your old car was perfectly fine. Save your money for retirement, you fool!"

Mind-sets change. People try to grow together, and if they can't, they grow apart.

 

[gayl]

An old friend told me to not worry, that I'd find a job soon. Many seem to regard it as a form of unemployment ... although they are truly envious of the trips I'm taking. A few look upon it with envy, trapped in large homes with larger mortgages. Fewer still are out here with me enjoying ER. A friend and her husband just joined me. Seems the call of a first grandson coupled with Tier3 public sector DBP plan was too great to resist.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

It may be as simple as another category of discussion we often have. People cant imagine identifying themselves alone, without a job to "classify" them.

Imagine having to handle dealing with that in another person. Considering the basic feelings of envy a nice car or watch or suit has on our peers, how about our having conquered a half dozen of their "greatest fears" and appearing nonplussed about it?

"How would I identify myself without a job?"

"What would I do with my spare time?"

"What if I run out of money?"

"But I'd have no routine!"

"I need to continously make and spend more money to be successful"

et cetera...

Maybe I was somehow prewired for this to not matter to me. I never thought of myself as a "<job> guy" but rather as a "guy that has to spend time doing <job> to continue eating and living indoors".

In my early 20's I worked full time at a computer company, 3-5 evenings a week at a hardware store, and midnight to 8am at the local 24 hour convenience store on weekends. When someone asked me conversationally what I did for a living, I usually told them about being the "midnight man" at the convenience store. It led to more interesting conversations than "I sell computer products and services".

 

[JonnyM]

First - I'm not there yet, still prepping...sniff, cry, whine...

but it's interesting. I work in a very densely populated building in the public sector. Well over a thousand souls, who all are eligible to a great DBP retirement. I mean this plan has colas, paid medical forever, a really great deal. It comes out of our checks, the local government matches, it's really a nice thing, and I'm the first one to admit I fell into it. I had no idea how good it was until about 6 years ago, when I'd already been working here for 15 years. I had no clue.

So do a great degree it doesn't suprise me that now that I've become somewhat of an evangelist for ER for my fellow employees, that most of us have never given a thought to "R" let alone "ER". Many, and it seems proportional to years of services, get very bright eyed when I bring up the ER subject. They are truely amazed that it is even possible. It just isn't part of the culture.

My typical ice breaker as meetings or seminars breakup is, " So how many years do you have left?" When they say "x", I reply, "I can show you how to shave "y" years off of that. That really gets their attention!

I have yet to get any negative feedback. Of course I'm still one of them, still a worker bee on the inside with 'em. I'm thinking of starting a Church of the Early Retirement.

So far I'm taking the credit for brightening the lives of half a dozen co-workers. Maybe I didn't really shorten their work years much, or any, but I helped them see well in advance what that happy date could be, rather than bumping into it like it seems like so many of our bretheren do. The ones that have a bad day, send a request to the Retirement Board for an estimate, can't believe how much they'll get, and leave a month later. If they'd known, they'd have left a year before... How sad.

 

[Pennhaven]

Lots of good insight here already, I don't think there is any magic answer that can solve this problem.

I have to agree with the earlier sentiment that if these people were true friends they would find it in themselves to be happy for your success rather than rationalizing that your situation must be the result of dumb luck instead of hard work, sacrifice, and careful planning. The bottom line, which they do not wish to accept, is that everything in life is a tradeoff and that if they had made different choices in their own lives then early retirement could be in reach for them too.

Still I think it is very important not to rub one's early retirement in anyone's face. I've mentioned before that I tell most people that I am a semi-retired self-employed part-timer. Which is fundamentally true as I do a lot of worK. I just don't get paid for it.

An argument I can make though, if someone raises the canard that I am not contributing to society, is that by leaving the work force I have made room for someone else to earn a living. i.e., The more people who can support themselves in retirement the more jobs are opened up for those who still need to work. (On the other hand, now that I do so much DIY work around the house since I am "retired", I am probably taking away one net "service" job from the economy. )

I believe it is generally possible to retire early if you have self control and discipline. We did it by saving 20% of our gross income for over 25 years. It was relatively easy ( despite the fact that my wife seldom worked full time) primarily because we chose not to have children and also because I worked for a company with an excellent 401K plan. Obviously it can be a lot more difficult to do this if you are raising kids and don't have a good job.

But I believe that it is still possible for many many people to live happily on 80% of their gross income. The evidence is that there are other people out their living happily on that amount, almost whatever it might be. It is basically a matter of not succumbing to societal "pressures" and simply living a life style with lower perceived "status". But people whose sense of self worth is dependent on buying things and showing them off, or on how big and fancy their house is, apparently have a really hard time doing this and can not accept that this is a choice within their control.

 

[johnblake]

Thank you for bringing up this issue. I've been struggling with this problem since I ERed nearly three years ago. Since I'm only 39, many people just don't get it. I've been considering posting on this topic, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Some members of my family are constantly harassing me about not working... 'Are you bored yet?' 'When are you going to work again?' 'Don't you want to do something?'. From acquaintances I've heard: 'Oh I forgot, you don't have to work!'. I resisted telling this person that I've already probably worked more hours in my life than than they will when they retire. My elderly aunt introduced me to her friends: ' This is my nephew John, he doesn't have a job!' I have to admit that it's strange going from working 60 hours a week, to nothing at all. Going from getting remarks like: 'you're working late again', to the above.

But I'm finding the pressure to work to be immense. I need help. I recently took a on a small consulting project. My girlfriend (who works) seems to like the fact that I'm working. On another post, someone mentioned that they are a workaholic, and that they can't work. I may have this problem. Once I get engaged, I start working long hours, read less, and do less of the other activities that I enjoy. I think about starting a business. I get a lot of support from friends and family.

I think that one of the problems is that our culture defines men by 'what they do'. I think many older people would rather see me in a 7-7 job that I don't like, than ERed. I've always had a very strong work ethic. I worked hard in school, and in my jobs afterwards. The last three years have been the first time in my adult life that I've had more than 2 weeks off.

 

[John Galt]

Re. the "workaholic who can't work", that may have been me. Any hostility, envy, etc has mostly
disappeared I think, now that I am almost 60.
I recall only one person at my high school reunion
who listed himself as retired before I did. Now, it
is not that uncommon to find my contemporaries
retired. A lot of my good friends are still working
though.

JOhn Galt