Turning over a new leaf in the Soap Box

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by samclem I agree. And I think political discussions "work" better here (even if segregated into the Soapbox) than anywhere else I've seen on the net. For the most part, if you go to a dedicated political web site/discussion board, the personalities of the other posters never develop beyond two-dimensional political cartoon characterizations. Its easy to name-call and hard to have a meaningful discussion when everyone is just a political hack. Here, we get to know each other a little bit, and we depend on each other for advice, info, and maybe even occasional emotional support for all kinds of things--recipes, leaky roofs, cranky kids, asset allocation, wedding planning, etc. Senators (usually) maintain a collegial tone with each other for two reasons: They never know who's help they might need in the future, and because they have often formed relationships, even across the aisle, that make it less likely that they'll see their political adversary as an idiot worthy of a put-down. I think the same applies here--except for the occasional drive-by poster or those who ONLY talk politics, the folks here do tend to be respectful of each other while disagreeing with the points made. That's why I'll miss the exchange of political views (usually polite, well reasoned, and sometimes with appropriate supporting info) that I get here and nowhere else. As a practical matter, as Ha points out, it is also often difficult to separate politics from the rest of our lives. The Soapbox at least let folks self-segregate topics that might be more heavily partisan.

Exactly - I've looked at some of the other political forums, and w/o the 'connection' you may have from some give-and-take on other topics, it just turns into a meltdown.

Think about it - why do we share info here on attic insulation or recipes or electric cars or music when there are forums dedicated to those topics? I think it is because we often don't have any other 'connection' with those people. Those forums are too one-dimensional to hold our interest, unless you are a one-dimensional type person. Politics is just another dimension in (some of) our lives.

-ERD50

[haha]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 Hmm. Where's Martha's whip?

While I was out staggering around on the ice today I walked downtown with a stylish looking 30 something woman. Streaked spikey hair, retro tweed coat. She was carrying a huge leather backpack and because of this almost fell several times. She told me she was taking her tools to a clients house to work on a project. "Oh, what do you do?" "I'm a leather worker". "Oh cool, briefcases and purses and stuff?" "No, more fun. Whips and crops and leather bustiers and other kinky stuff." "Oh cool"

Ha

[clifp]

Why you moderator types are discussing my questions.
Can you add where do we debate
Leather Workers: Harmless fun, or twisted deviant behavior?

"Oh Cool" that is the best you could come up with? I of course would have come up with a James Bond like response; NOT.

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by clifp Why you moderator types are discussing my questions. Can you add where do we debate Leather Workers: Harmless fun, or twisted deviant behavior?

Clearly an "Other Topic"...

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by haha She told me she was taking her tools to a clients house to work on a project. "Oh, what do you do?" "I'm a leather worker". "Oh cool, briefcases and purses and stuff?" "No, more fun. Whips and crops and leather bustiers and other kinky stuff."

Nice work if you can get it...

[HFWR]

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Originally Posted by clifp So if the powers that be tell me where it is appropriate to debate:

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- The Obama cabinet: a betrayal of the left or smart choices?

Both?

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- The Auto bailout :a march toward socialism or a necessary evil?

Both?

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- Madoff Ponzi scheme: How could rich people be so stupid or there but the grace of God go I

Both?

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- Carolina Kennedy: Good choice or liberal media hypocrisy?

Can she fog a mirror?

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- Afghanistan: Pull out now or win the war?

Define "win"...

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So is this a forum only for discussion of bacon, bunnies, boots,and babes interrupted by the occasional discussion of financial matters or are we allowed to have discussion about non-financial topics where people may have passionate opinions that differ?

I would submit that the responses to these burning questions are relatively predictable. Everyone has had ample time to make their political philosophies known, and if it's already decided that gov't shouldn't do anything, or should do everything, there's not much room for compromise anyway...

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Originally Posted by Purron Hendrix

Having worked in an engineering environment for 25 years, I would say that without goal posts, it's hard to know if anyone scored...

How I would judge a guitar player:

- technical ability; i.e. can they play complex scales and chords
- adaptability; i.e. can they play using bits and pieces from all kinds of musical styles
- creativity, which is pretty subjective...

But for sheer originality, and for taking guitar playing to a whole nuther level, it's hard to argue against Hendrix...

[CuppaJoe]

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Originally Posted by clifp Why you moderator types are discussing my questions. Can you add where do we debate Leather Workers: Harmless fun, or twisted deviant behavior? "Oh Cool" that is the best you could come up with? I of course would have come up with a James Bond like response; NOT.

--
Seems appropriate to the "what did you do today" areas. Took a walk on the ice. Living vicariously is what the forum is all about?

All I can come up with is: at the post office yesterday, I met a guy who was next in line when the clerk closed the window. He said it was just like inching up the line to get into a ship in Okinawa after WWII. I looked into his face, he looked too young, a splendid example of a successful retiree. He said just as he got to the front of the line, a hand pushed him back, the ship was full. The entire post office line laughed and said this line is not bad at all.

[Purron]

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Originally Posted by HFWR But for sheer originality, and for taking guitar playing to a whole nuther level, it's hard to argue against Hendrix...

I'm not a guitar player but all I can say is Hendrix took me to a whole nuther level. Still does.

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by Purron I'm not a guitar player but all I can say is Hendrix took me to a whole nuther level. Still does.

There are several artists you could reasonably argue *for*, IMO, but it's really hard to argue *against* Hendrix.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 There are several artists you could reasonably argue *for*, IMO, but it's really hard to argue *against* Hendrix.

That's a good way to put it. I could argue 'for' Santana, Buddy Guy, McLaughlin & Beck, maybe Clapton, but never 'against' Hendrix.

I have the Hendrix Christmas CD. It's just practice tapes before they did a New Years concert, but of the three tracks, the last is actually quite amazing. Medley of Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/ Auld Lange Syne. To segue' from Silent Night to Auld Lang Syne, he throws in 'Taps' to take you out of the year (now dead) and into the new year (new life). It's always sad to think about what he would have come up with next. We will never know what we missed.

-ERD50

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 That's a good way to put it. I could argue 'for' Santana, Buddy Guy, McLaughlin & Beck, maybe Clapton, but never 'against' Hendrix.

Yup. Santana and Clapton immediately came to my mind as other candidates.

[ERD50]

I've got the Crossroads 2007 DVD, and while there are many great guitarists, I was really impressed with what I'd call Becks' 'artistry'. He just seemed to be on a different level, hmm, maybe Zappa was on that level at his creative best. There were links here a while back to Zappa does Zappa - amazing stuff.

-ERD50

[HFWR]

A few others: Frank Zappa, Adrian Belew, Jan Ackerman, Al DiMeola, Jr. Brown, Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, Jaco Pastorius, Dick Dale, Eric Johnson, Steve Vai, Dwayne Allman, Toy Caldwell, Terry Kath...

The mind boggles...

[HFWR]

Saw Dweezil and Zappa Plays Zappa two years ago. Freakin' awesome!

But, then, I saw Frank three times...

[HFWR]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 Yup. Santana and Clapton immediately came to my mind as other candidates.

Saw Beck and Santana on one bill. Jeff gave Carlos a lesson...

[REWahoo]

Samclem and clifp, thank you both for your posts asking for clarification of the new Community Rules set to go into effect on 1/1. You have given us some good food for thought. The mods have discussed your questions regarding real and theoretical threads and attempted to determine whether or not they would be allowed under our new rules. Please note that the information provided is very limited and our opinions might change once we saw the substance of the actual post. Our responses are show in blue.

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Originally Posted by samclem A quick look at the "Other Topics" as well as the Soapbox would reveal a great number of threads that don't meet this standard, yet were highly productive and didn't turn into a flame war. Here are some sample topics that aren't ER related, are they all no longer welcome on this board? -- Gov Blago's woes in IL OK in Other Topics as long as the thread does not stray into political mudslinging -- US education policy compared to other industrialized nations OK in Other Topics -- US health care policy (not necessarily retiree-related: Should we have single payer? State policies--which are working? ) OK in Health and Early Retirement -- Government energy policies, govt incentives for PV, and alternative energy research (per Rule 1, it appears that discussions of alternative energy sources is okay, but discussions of government policy in this area is not?). OK in Other Topics

We have no problem with discussions of government policy as long as they steer clear of partisan political bashing.

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Originally Posted by clifp - The Obama cabinet: a betrayal of the left or smart choices? Not appropriate when couched in those terms - The Auto bailout :a march toward socialism or a necessary evil? Appropriate for the FIRE Related Political Topics Forum as long as the discussion did not turn into political mudslinging. - Medoff Ponzi scheme: How could rich people be so stupid or there but the grace of God go I Appropriate for Other Topics - Carolina Kennedy: Good choice or liberal media hypocrisy? Not appropriate - Afghanistan: Pull out now or win the war? Not appropriate

You also asked:

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Originally Posted by clifp So is this a forum only for discussion of bacon, bunnies, boots,and babes interrupted by the occasional discussion of financial matters or are we allowed to have discussion about non-financial topics where people may have passionate opinions that differ?

No, closing the Soap Box is not intended to turn the forums into a charm school. Posters may continue to be as passionate as they please with FIRE related political discussions as well as other topics as long as they do so in a reasonable manner.

As one of our more eloquent moderators phrased it, "What we are really trying to avoid is the continuation of the threads whose sum and substance was, for example, 'Obama is a terrorist communist' or 'Palin is an ignorant fascist'. They did nothing but get people upset with each other..." Posts of this nature will no longer be appropriate on our forums. Raw politics brings out the worst in people and lowers the tone of the board. There are plenty of other places where this sort of discussion is allowed.

[samclem]

REWahoo and the Mod team,
- Thanks for the clarification. Obviously, the calls will be subjective and we'll all get a feel for this as we go along.
- I see where you are going with all judgements on the samples clifp and I provided. The only one that surprised me was clifp's "Afghanistan: quit or stay" topic--I would have guessed it was okay as written, provided there was substance to the post and it covered aspects of the issue other than US domestic political ones.

- Again, thanks to the team.

[harley]

Hendrix had the advantage of dying too young. Unfair. But I'm not arguing. He was experienced.

Stevie Ray does it for me, I love "Tin Pan Alley". But again, the advantage of dying a young legend.

I was glad to see you have Danny Gatton on your list. And Terry Kath, hugely underrated. I'd add Richard Thompson to the list. And Ry Cooder.

And while I appreciate you throwing in Jaco, he belongs at the top of a different list.

[Purron]

...and then there's Jerry Garcia. Not in the same league as some others mentioned regarding technical ability, but what a unique sound and style.

[Midpack]

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Originally Posted by Purron ...and then there's Jerry Garcia. Not in the same league as some others mentioned regarding technical ability, but what a unique sound and style.

And you can't have a list like this without Eddie Van Halen. Some of his work sounded like it couldn't be one person/guitar...