Diet Wars

[Amethyst]

We don't follow any particular diet, but eat a ton of no-fat Greek yogurt. I need it for the calcium. Walmart, Sam's, and BJs have very good house brands that cost far less than name brands. I have always read food labels, and know the "low-fat, high-sugar" trap you refer to.

On the topic of low carb and probiotics, every low-carber knows the secret of Greek yogurt, right? High protein, low carb, no added sugar, and delicious.

My favorite was Fage Total 5% (full fat), but I find that I like their 0% too. If you're like me, you're very suspicious of low-fat anything because that used to be a signal that it was loaded with sugar. Not the case here.

 

[twaddle]

Fage seems to go on sale often at our local Safeway. I always thought it was a bargain until we went to Greece, and they served it by the bucketfull made fresh every morning. For free.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Doesn't this presume that where you are at today, is where you stay?

Yes, today everyone's gut biome is adjusted to what they eat today. If you eat mostly meat/cheese/dairy, your gut biome reflects that.

But if that person eats plant based for 2 months, their gut biome will completely change.

The standard American diet has <10% of fruits and vegetables. Mostly processed food, meat and dairy. People get 3-5x the protein they need and 20% of the fibre. American guts reflect that.

I am not sure I really understand your question. Even among people with plant based diets or high animal protein diets, no two microbiomes are going to be exactly alike, though there are many general pattern groups that have been identified, both healthy and unhealthy.

Tim Spector does research on how the microbiome changes over time and how to improve your microbiome. He says his studies show British guts are generally not in good shape but at least not as bad as "the Americans". I don't think any gut researchers assume what you have in your gut stays the same over time. Most seem to be working on how to identify disease states on how what we eat or take in as probiotics or even our general environment (like being around gardening soil or pets) can aid us in getting healthier.

Rob Knight of the American Gut projects, says, "we’re going to beyond making maps of the microbiome to making a microbiome GPS that tells you not just where you are on that map, but where you want to go and what to do in order to get there in terms of diet, lifestyle or medications.”

 

[Old Microbiologist]

I am a PhD research immunologist with a huge background in bacterial immunity. One big problem rarely mentioned is that we can only temporarily over-ride our gut microbiome but it never lasts more than 3 or so days after returning to a normal diet. Sadly, we have a phenomenon of immune tolerance whereby our immune systems are trained in our first days of infancy as to what is foreign and not. This is a permanent hardwiring of the immune system and so far no one has figured out a way to break tolerance. It sometimes happens accidentally and results in autoimmunity and resultant disease. The only treatment that works for autoimmune disease is steroids which basically shuts off your immune system including the autoimmune response. It also makes the person very susceptible to minor infections which can end up being lethal as you have no functional immunity. Steroid usage is at insane levels in the US and it is extremely dangerous. Normally we suggest a person to never take steroids more than 3 times in their lifetime. Some Americans are on them permanently.

With regards to the gut microbiome, several good studies were performed where westerners were introduced to the lifestyle of sub-Saharan Africans and they lived among them in total immersion. Within 2 weeks their gut flora completely changed to that of their hosts. However, within 3 days of returning to their "normal" western diet, their gut flora went completely back to what it was before. So, if a person wants to change their flora it is important to understand that it must be maintained constantly otherwise it returns back to baseline.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

I have mentioned it before but I make my own yogurt using commercial probiotic capsules. It is a bit complicated to find reliable probiotics with the correct mix of bacteria. Some good bacteria are completely unavailable as probiotics as they are anaerobic bacteria (Akkermania spp.) but you can get them from homemade sauerkraut which is made by fermentation (anaerobic). Commercial sauerkraut is not fermented but rather made by adding lactic acid to cabbage. I am on a keto diet so am limiting my carbs to less than 20g per day so it is also important the yogurt go all the way to being particularly sour meaning all the lactose is consumed by the bacteria. I eat 250 ml of yogurt a day made from 3.5% fat milk. It is the last thing I consume every evening as I stop eating at 7 PM and don't eat again until 3:30 pm the next day as I am also doing intermittent fasting. One huge benefit of eating this yogurt is it also changes your oral flora as well. I specifically included bacteria that overgrow any bad bacteria in the mouth. This should prevent dental carries. I ascribe to the theory that heart disease is caused by poor dental hygiene and specifically bad bacteria in the mouth. This is born out well in post mortem culturing of infarcts and the subsequent recovery of bacteria coming from the mouth.

I have found that consuming 250 ml a day before bed is enough to establish good flora. One bacteria I included is originally from breast milk called Bifidobacterium infantis. This has an interesting effect on stool odor as it smells like nursing baby poop if you understand what I am saying here. It is a signal that things are working correctly.

The other reason for using yogurt (or similar) is that you need a lot of bacteria to overwhelm the intestinal flora and survive stomach acidity. Capsules are insufficient and are actually a trivial amount in comparison. Yogurt as I culture it has between 1x10^10 and 1x10^12 CFU/ml (bacteria per ml). Assuming 99% is killed by stomach acidity it drops by 2 logs down to 1x10^8 to 1x10^10 CFU/ml which is enough to establish in the intestines.

Part of this process is that when we eat most of the actual digestion is done by the bacteria living in our guts. We are absorbing the byproducts of their consuming our food. Many bacteria that inhabit the gut produce carcinogenic compounds or toxins. Keeping these down by overwhelming them with good bacteria is the main benefit of changing our gut flora. Diet also contributes to this and switching to healthy foods without chemical preservatives and eating homemade fermented foods helps a great deal. Commercially prepared foods are very unhealthy.

 

[Crewer]

I've been browsing the book Burn by Pontzer. So far I don's see much startling in it (unlike the subtitle to the book). The author says it's all about calories with the caveat that metabolism can change when faced with what it thinks is coming food shortages. Shorter eating window = fewer calories in, processed foods = more calories in in a short time, etc. The author describes the fate of a number of Biggest Loser contestants. Of ~14 he mentioned, 5 either gained it all back or were now heavier than when they did the program and most gained significant weight back. One winner who lost a fantastic amount of weight in the short period still has an exceptionally low metabolic rate more than 6 years after winning. If food weren't such a big part of our culture then maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing, I guess. I haven't explicitly read about the long term effects of the lower metabolic rate but the author did say something about the immune system being a lower priority if calories are scarce and that doesn't sound good to me. And growth in kids gets lower priority, though it takes a very big deficit of calories to take energy out of reproductive systems.

Separately I long ago read about why marathoners and even half-marathoners were helped by taking the gels they give at races even when you can't metabolize the stuff in the short time of the race. The answer was something to the effect that the body will more easily release energy from its stores if it thinks some calories are coming in. When I was working I sometimes thought a snack really helped me focus on something I was doing there. Getting more energy released to the brain? More likely, wishful thinking, I think.

I plan to give the book a more thorough read.

 

[twaddle]

Pontzer's book is on my to-read list. As I mentioned, The Biggest Loser study was done by Kevin Hall, and there's a link to a good interview of him earlier in this thread.

The "why" of processed food causing us to overeat is still a bit of a mystery, but as you say, the caloric density per unit time is one hypothesis. Cafeteria studies where processed food is eaten ad libitum also support the Protein Leverage hypothesis, and Hall seems to be coming around to the idea that PL is at least one of the factors.

 

[tmm99]

I have mentioned it before but I make my own yogurt using commercial probiotic capsules.

Can you share with us which commercial probiotics you're using? Thanks.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

With regards to the gut microbiome, several good studies were performed where westerners were introduced to the lifestyle of sub-Saharan Africans and they lived among them in total immersion. Within 2 weeks their gut flora completely changed to that of their hosts. However, within 3 days of returning to their "normal" western diet, their gut flora went completely back to what it was before. So, if a person wants to change their flora it is important to understand that it must be maintained constantly otherwise it returns back to baseline.

There is an interesting study on the impact of a diet swap between typical American and traditional African diets on colon cancer biomarkers: "Our study suggests that westernization of the diet induces changes in biomarkers of colon cancer risk in the colonic mucosa within two weeks. Perhaps even more importantly, a change in diet from a westernized composition to a 'traditional African' high fiber low fat diet reduced these biomarkers of cancer risk within two weeks, indicating that it is likely never too late to change your diet to change your risk of colon cancer."

Diet Swap has dramatic effect on colon cancer risk for Americans and Africans
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150428125038.htm

 

[braumeister]

Separately I long ago read about why marathoners and even half-marathoners were helped by taking the gels they give at races even when you can't metabolize the stuff in the short time of the race. The answer was something to the effect that the body will more easily release energy from its stores if it thinks some calories are coming in.

I don't know if there is any truth to that, but intuitively it seems to make good sense. Thanks for posting that; I'd never heard it before.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

From instructions, I sent to my brother a long time ago but still how I am doing things today. I do not have a laboratory in my home since retirement. If I did I would purchase the strains directly from ATCC (American Type Culture Collection) as I had an account in my own lab when I was working. So, the next best thing is commercial probiotics.

The probiotics I use are listed below and the asterix indicates the actual strain(s) I was after in the mix.

Align (Procter & Gamble)
*Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (now genotyping puts it as B. longum ssp. longum strain 35624)

Osumex LB17 (Osumex Natural Alternatives Ltd)
Lactobacillus acidophilus
L. acetotoleruns
*L. amylovorus
L. bulgaricus
L. casei
*L plantarum
*L. brevis
L. fermentum
L. buchneri
Pediococcus pentosaceus
P. halophus
P. damnosus
Bifidobacterium bifidum
*B. longum
*Streptococcus thermophilus
Lactococcus lactis

Primadophilus Reuteri (Nature’s Way)
*Lactobacillus rhamnosus
L. acidophilus
*L. reuters HA-188

Bronson’s Perfect Probiotic (Bronson’s Laboratories)
*L. gasseri
*L. rhamnosus
B. bifidum
B. longum
*B. infantis
B. breve
B. lactis
*L. gasseri


Method:

So, what to do with these capsules? I use a commercial yogurt maker which has a programmed time and utilizes 4 250ml containers which make it easier to get going. For each of the 4 probiotic capsules, I use 1 container and about 75 ml of whole milk (3.5% fat but you can use skim milk but NOT lactose-free).

A note on the milk: I live in Europe where cattle are not given antibiotics or hormones for agricultural use. In America, all cattle are on growth hormones, estrogen, and massive amounts of antibiotics in the feed. This all comes out in the milk and is consumed by humans which is horrible to contemplate. Also, Pasteurization in the US is not validated by the USDA (commercial self-validation is the rule in the US). Because of that, it must be assumed the milk is contaminated with fecal bacteria and/or antibiotics and/or hormones, the milk must be boiled prior to use. Alternatively, you can purchase GMO free, organic milk but I would still boil it for 10 minutes prior to using it for Yogurt. You can substitute soy milk (bad stuff because of estrogen analogs), or almond milk. If you boil the milk cool it down before using it for cultures or the heat will kill your probiotics.

Some capsules twist apart and others are liquid and you must puncture it carefully and squeeze it into the milk. These are cultures so must be treated carefully so as to not contaminate them with your own bacteria on your hands or in droplets from your breath. The Osumex LB17 is in syrup inside the capsule (probably malt extract) so it is more difficult to mix in.

Gently swirl the probiotic in the milk until it dissolves or disperses, cap the flasks and incubate about 4 hours. Check and see if it has thickened which indicates the bacteria are growing and give them a good swirl to keep mixing them up. Most bacteria have flagella for motility but not all have functional ones so you have to manually mix the cultures periodically. These bacteria have a doubling time of about 20 minutes. Once you get thickening then add more milk until the container is nearly full and incubate again for 5-6 hours. Check it at 5 hours and it should be really thick. The longer you go the more bacteria you get BUT you also generate a lot of acid which if high enough kills off some of the strains.

After I grow up the first batch I combine them into a container and mix that thoroughly. I freeze back 100 small sample vials containing 5 ml each and keep these in a ziplock bag in the freezer. I start the next batch from a frozen tube roughly once a week if I am making one batch a day. Each batch produces 1 liter which for 2 people is what you use daily 250ml per serving). I have it at breakfast and just before bedtime.

To use from a frozen vial it is just like from the capsule except you only use 1 vial and 75 ml of milk, incubate till thick and I check them then using a spoon add equal amounts to the remaining 3 containers, fill with milk, mix thoroughly and run this set again for 6 hours. You can make secondary tubes from this if you want. I make enough tubes from the primary batch to last 2 years. So, a commercial package could last you a very long time. As you can easily get these in the US from Amazon you can bypass the freezer vials and just start from capsules each week.

If you do some internet searches on each strain I indicated you can find out a lot of interesting clinical trials. I am after lowering cholesterol, lowering blood sugar, weight loss, and anti-inflammatory effects. Side benefits are reduced or elimination of dental caries, improved vision, improved mood, etc.

The current theory is we all have a large amount of bacteria making up our intestinal flora and skin flora. We develop immune acceptance of these particular strains at birth and cannot be changed. However, after receiving antibiotic therapy we kill of many of the bacteria we need and get bad bacteria instead with a whole host of bad effects. So far there seems to be no way to return our flora mix to normal but you can overgrow them with probiotics hence why you need to eat yogurt every day for the rest of your lives. At least until they figure out how to change our immune tolerance. Best case you can fix a lot of problems and worst case you get some good yogurt. I am convinced this is a very simple yet effective way to address a lot of health issues. It is somewhat a pain to keep making yogurt all the time but it is well worth it. If the tablets contained anywhere near enough I would simply do that but they only contain trivial amounts. Many commercial probiotics contain nothing at all. The ones I use have been verified to contain what they say.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Regarding exercise and diet I have been doing a lot of reading on the effects of the keto diet on endurance athletes. I have been on keto for over a year now and I am amazed that my anaerobic threshold has risen so much. I worked years (in my youth) to try and raise it doing innumerable sets of Fartleks which did change it a bit. However, just being fat-adapted and not using glucose as a fuel source changes it much more. I no longer bonk when all glucose/glycogen is consumed as my body is trained to switch to ketone use rapidly. This provides the body a store of over 40,000 calories (as fat) instead of the 1,800-2,400 calories we keep as glucose in muscles and glycogen in the liver. This is born out in the literature. The downside is you have to go keto and be on it religiously for at least 6 months before this effect is noticeable. Most professional athletes can't afford to stop competing that long so it is very hard to get to that point.

I also don't breathe as much when exerting beyond my anaerobic threshold. One big change I notice is that because of the efforts I made for years to increase my anaerobic threshold I damaged my heart so that I developed exercise-induced arrhythmia when my pulse goes above 140 bpm. I get a cardiac stress (bicycle as my knees have zero cartilage) every 5 years so this is well established for me. Anyway, I can feel the arrhythmia when I get above 140 bpm and use a breathing technique to fix it, and has become second nature for me. I am now only intermittently having the problem so something has changed. I am due for a stress test again this year assuming COVID opens up the medical facilities again. It will be interesting to see if it has changed any or if this is just in my mind.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Regarding diet and colon cancer, it has been pretty well established that fecal transit time (FTT) is a major predictor for societies to develop colon cancer. On the native mostly vegetative diet in Africa, the FTT is roughly 18 hours. In the western diet, it is usually on the order of 72 hours. The corn kernel test is a good measure of FTT. If you eat cooked corn kernels you can measure exactly how long your FTT is as you can easily observe them in your stools.

The science on this is interesting. In rapid FTT the intestines and colon remain aerobic and anaerobic bacteria don't become dominant. Many anaerobic gut flora produce high levels of carcinogens so slow movement of food through the intestines causes the bacteria to consume all the oxygen and the anaerobes take over. So, it is a delicate balance driven by diet that controls FTT. Mostly fiber is what causes the quicker FTT. However, from personal experience, too much fiber can actually block the movement entirely. I was taking alfalfa supplements and I became impacted so needed laxatives to clean it all out. I am currently taking a half teaspoon of Epsom salts(magnesium sulfate) daily which keeps things moving along and have a FTT of <24 hours. I only eat once a day (OMAD) so for me it is easier to figure it out. Often it is 12-15 hours.

 

[twaddle]

Most professional athletes can't afford to stop competing that long so it is very hard to get to that point.

You probably already know this, but some ultramarathon runners are embracing it. See, for example, the current world record holder Zach Bitter.

 

[sengsational]

.... You can substitute soy milk (bad stuff because of estrogen analogs), or almond milk. ...

Did you mean "can't substitute"?

One other clarification. It sounds like you make a batch from your freezer stash once a week, but make a batch every day? Or do you make enough on the one day to get you through the week?

 

[bloom2708]

Soy milk does not have estrogen. It has phyto-estrogen which is completely different.

The soy milk is unhealthy schtick likely came from the dairy industry.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm wondering how the 72-hour transit time relates to the colon specialist's telling us that food takes 36 hours from mouth to toilet. Without going into TMI, it seems to be relatively accurate.

Regarding diet and colon cancer, it has been pretty well established that fecal transit time (FTT) is a major predictor for societies to develop colon cancer. On the native mostly vegetative diet in Africa, the FTT is roughly 18 hours. In the western diet, it is usually on the order of 72 hours. .

 

[Gremlin]

I’ve gone through it ALL!

I’m a “failed” bariatric patient, formerly morbidly obese person having topped out at 450 pounds and finally over the past couple decades I’ve achieved a stable maintenance between 210-220 pounds. I say “failed” because I dropped from 450 to 280 but then BAM regained back up to 350, finally deciding I had to just keep it simple: stick with healthy foods and move more.

I was on Atkins way back before anyone knew about it in the 1970’s. I always fared best when I recognized my two demons, the two ingredients that were in any and all foods that would call my name until they they all GONE!: 1) Sugar and 2) Flour

Disallowing their presence in my home has been the cornerstone of my progress. I’m fine with carbs, but carbs from real and unprocessed foods: veggies, some fruits, legumes and nuts. I’ve finally achieved a peaceable truce with food and regard my freggies as my “Farm-acy.” I like to keep it as simple and unprocessed as possible.

For more about my journey:

https://www.sparkpeople.com/mypage.asp?id=DDOORN

Don

What an amazing accomplishment!

 

[mpeirce]

"until they they all GONE!: 1) Sugar and 2) Flour"

So true for so many.

I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that flour, aka starch, aka complex carbohydrates, are simply long chains of simple sugars.

Yes, I know it takes a little time to digest starch into its constituent sugar, but eating carbs is ALWAYS eating sugar. By definition.

Most of my extended family still can't get that. It just doesn't sink in.

 

[flintnational]

"until they they all GONE!: 1) Sugar and 2) Flour"

So true for so many.

I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that flour, aka starch, aka complex carbohydrates, are simply long chains of simple sugars.

Yes, I know it takes a little time to digest starch into its constituent sugar, but eating carbs is ALWAYS eating sugar. By definition.

Most of my extended family still can't get that. It just doesn't sink in.

+1 I am occasionally asked for diet advice (I lost 30#s). My five word answer is, "Flour and sugar are bad".

We can debate carbs vs calories, omnivoire or vegan, or which oil is healthy, but most folks can dramatically improve their health by dropping these two items. The tough part......they are everywhere and in everything!

 

[qwerty3656]

I have mentioned it before but I make my own yogurt using commercial probiotic capsules. It is a bit complicated to find reliable probiotics with the correct mix of bacteria. Some good bacteria are completely unavailable as probiotics as they are anaerobic bacteria (Akkermania spp.) but you can get them from homemade sauerkraut

2 questions:

1) once you make your 1st batch of yogurt, why do you need the probiotic capsules anymore? Shouldn't the frozen starter be enough to make the next batch?

2) Are you saying you need sauerkraut in addition to the yogurt?

 

[bloom2708]

"until they they all GONE!: 1) Sugar and 2) Flour"

So true for so many.

I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that flour, aka starch, aka complex carbohydrates, are simply long chains of simple sugars.

Yes, I know it takes a little time to digest starch into its constituent sugar, but eating carbs is ALWAYS eating sugar. By definition.

Most of my extended family still can't get that. It just doesn't sink in.

Your body needs carbs to live. Everything turns into sugar/energy at some point.

The problem is the refined products and added sugars. Sugar itself isn't bad.

Sugar is usually found heaped with fat and salt which does not help.

Don't eat white flour, eat whole grain flour with the fiber left in.
Don't drink orange juice, eat the orange.
Don't drink apple juice, eat the apple.
Don't eat white rice, eat brown or wild rice with the fiber left in.
Don't eat olive juice (aka olive oil), eat the olive


The fiber slows down digestion, that slows down the absorption of sugars.

Most get 3-5x the protein they need and maybe 20% of the fiber. The fiber and cellulous material is the good guy.

If you just say "carbs are bad", it paints the wrong picture.

 

[flintnational]

You can use a sous vide to make yogurt. This is the one we use. The temp will be 115 F for about 13 hours. That results in a thick sour yogurt.

 

[sengsational]

You can use a sous vide to make yogurt. This is the one we use. The temp will be 115 F for about 13 hours. That results in a thick sour yogurt.

Interesting idea. The yogurt maker on Amazon I looked at this morning when reading OM posts was only $30. One difference is auto shut-off, but it would be interesting to hear of someone who regularly used both techniques as to the convenience of one over the other. I mean, if you're going to do it every day (as, apparently, OM does), you might find the water bath a bit less convenient than the dry chamber (at least I don't think the yogurt maker requires water... didn't look that closely).

 

[tmm99]

From instructions, I sent to my brother a long time ago but still how I am doing things today...

Hi OMicrobiologist,

Thank you so much for sharing the details!

I've just ordered several items (except for Osumex LB17 as I emailed them asking if their sachets are basically the same thing as the gel caps). I'm ready to start filling my gut with good bacteria!

I tried some probiotic caps in the past, but I didn't see any improvement or experience any changes, so I ended up quitting every time. I'm going to try your yogurt method to see if my poop will smell like the baby's (with some other benefits, of course!)