Diet Wars

[daylatedollarshort]

I have read of some long term low carb followers who suffered gastro problems from not "feeding" their guts with prebiotic plants....(potatoes, tubers, etc.)....seems the solution recommended is consuming certain forms of prebiotic fiber.

I think the issue is one needs the right bacteria to digest some high fiber foods like gluten. If you don't have the right bacteria to digest these foods, it can cause stomach upset. Eliminating the hard to digest foods can solve stomach issues in the short term, but in the long term then as you said in some cases people may not be feeding their gut bacteria with enough carbs to survive and it causes a decrease in diversity, and gut bacteria diversity is linked to good health and especially longevity.

Related articles: The gut microbiome of healthy, long lived people - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6366966/

While gut science is still an emerging field, it is easy enough these days to get one's gut tested to see what kind of bacteria you have, get a diversity score and even see how your gut in general compares to healthy, older seniors. I think cutting edges science has really moved past the is low carb healthy or not simplistic question. The right diet seems is likely to be highly individualized and varies on what gut bacteria you have now and what can you eat to make it more diverse, if need be. Like many people don't have the bacteria to digest beans but by eating a little at first and feeding and building up the right bacteria they might be able to eat more and more beans without issue.

 

[ncbill]

I wish my spouse still had the option of a CSA box at work...we ate a lot of in-season veggies even at the minimum order size.

 

[bloom2708]

I wish my spouse still had the option of a CSA box at work...we ate a lot of in-season veggies even at the minimum order size.

The closest Aldi has been on fire for fruits/vegetable deals this winter.

$1.20 for raspberries and strawberries. Nice big packs of strawberries. $1 for spinach and kale bundles. We always have fresh blueberries in the fridge along with grapes and apples. Heads of broccoli and cauliflower are cheap and go a long way.

Bananas are dirt cheap. Between Aldi, Walmart and a couple of other places there are some great finds out there.

Misfits Market doesn't serve our area. Might be worth trying.

https://www.misfitsmarket.com/

 

[mpeirce]

I eat way more vegetables when I am doing low carb than when I'm not.

Me too. I don’t really understand why some people equate keto with “no veggies”. Just not starchy ones.

Last nigh’s dinner included brussel sprouts (cooked in bacon) and a salad. Night before was broccoli cooked in butter.

On weekends I eat some fruit but it’s usually berries. Melon works well too. I love good, crisp apples, but I have to not over do it. Apples have gotten bigger at the store so I try to get the small ones. A local orchard man last fall was complaining to me that his crop had too many smaller apples, I was happy about it.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I did not read all the messages in this thread. Early in the thread, I saw people getting a bit bothered by different viewpoints, and I stopped reading. This last page is more about "what works for me" which is enjoyable. I've been mostly low carb for the past 4 years, with a year off due to work stress and poor planning. Eating healthy protein and veggies and seeing sugar and refined flour as poison is really helpful for me and DH.

What bothers me about diet wars is the politics involved-the low fat mantra has been around since 1980, and it has been incorporated into hospital food choices and school lunch programs.

Which means the kids can have chocolate milk as long as it's "low fat". The diabetic diets offered to our new onset hospitalized teenagers were ridiculous.

My reasons for going low carb/keto are simple:
1. It helps me lose weight (yes, I need to track intake too)
2. Maintain weight loss more easily
3. Prevent type 2 diabetes, which is strong in my family
4. I find it easily sustainable, as the fat in the diet is more satiating than fiber, and I find the food choices more satisfying.

My keto diet includes veggies more than my pre-keto diet. Tonight I'm making keto Doro Wat, which I will eat with low carb rolls (or not). DS, who is not on a keto diet, will have it with a paratha. Injera bread is really hard to make, and is not low carb.

I also eat only 2 meals per day, which works for me and DH.

 

[twaddle]

On the topic of low carb and probiotics, every low-carber knows the secret of Greek yogurt, right? High protein, low carb, no added sugar, and delicious.

My favorite was Fage Total 5% (full fat), but I find that I like their 0% too. If you're like me, you're very suspicious of low-fat anything because that used to be a signal that it was loaded with sugar. Not the case here.

 

[skipro33]

I'm in the low carb and low sugar camp, focusing mostly on the low sugar. I don't eat any pastas, breads, potatoes and we have not bought sugar in years. I will use some substitute sugars that are all natural occasionally.
I USED to count calories in, but I discovered my body learned how to up it's MPG and got very efficient. I had a stretch of 6 months where I had a daily caloric intake of under 1,000 calories a day max, with average of 700 a day and could not get below 180 pounds. Thankfully I wasn't hungry either, something I discovered with the absence of sugar, but I also was low on energy. Finally said screw it and started eating as much as I like in the no carb/sugar regime and the weight started coming off again until it stabilized at around 172. My energy returned. However, I am disappointed with my body shape. Approaching 65, my belly sticks out and my 'love handles'/muffin top slops over my pants waist band. I loose too much muscle when I try to reduce this storage of fat deposits. Oh well....

 

[bloom2708]

Me too. I don’t really understand why some people equate keto with “no veggies”. Just not starchy ones.

Last night’s dinner included brussel sprouts (cooked in bacon) and a salad. Night before was broccoli cooked in butter.

On weekends I eat some fruit but it’s usually berries. Melon works well too. I love good, crisp apples, but I have to not over do it. Apples have gotten bigger at the store so I try to get the small ones. A local orchard man last fall was complaining to me that his crop had too many smaller apples, I was happy about it.

I think some treat veggies as a math equation. Good canceled out by bad.

Bacon/bacon grease + Brussel Sprouts = 0
Butter + Broccoli = 0
Cheese sauce + Cauliflower = 0

I can't see Bacon, ham, butter, cheese, etc as "health foods".

But, there are many roads to Dublin.

 

[twaddle]

I can't see Bacon, ham, butter, cheese, etc as "health foods".

This is where a lot of people stand their ground, mostly because of observational studies that suffer from lots of confounders.

What's interesting to me is that even though they are flawed studies, bacon as "bad" is a pretty consistent finding.

Cheese and butter often show up as surprisingly good.

 

[Rick0]

I'm in the thermodynamics tribe.
It's all energy in, burn efficiency, and energy out.

If you eat calories as fat, protein, carbs, meat or vegan - it's all energy in.
Some of these may cause your body to burn a bit more or less efficiently.

If you restrict calorie intake to less than you "burn", you will loose weight.
There's no such thing as a temporary diet - you need to make permanent lifestyle choices, or you will revert.
Eat a healthy, balanced diet that you like, but keep it small -- And exercise!

I know, I know - not a popular viewpoint. Nobody makes any money on diet books, food, clubs, or TV/YouTube appearances.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I know, I know - not a popular viewpoint. Nobody makes any money on diet books, food, clubs, or TV/YouTube appearances.

It is not that it isn't popular, the issue is that it is not fully supported by current science. Different mice, given the same diet, may become slim or fat based on their gut bacteria. Researchers can make mice fat or slim by giving them fecal transplants. Different people also get widely varying blood sugar reactions when the same food, based largely on their gut microbiome.

There is a company called Daytwo that is creating precision nutrition plans based on this - "We’ve shown that an individual’s microbiome in addition to other factors, is better for predicting blood glucose response after meals. The standard approach of counting carbohydrates and calories does not work as well because it considers only the characteristics of food. It fails to factor in the unique microbiome and lifestyle of each person."
https://www.daytwo.com/

The Biggest Loser contestants all had their metabolism slowed down after the events on the show, meaning they needed to eat less calories to weigh the same as they did before they were on the show.

Clearly there is a lot more going on in our bodies than the old calories in and calories out dogma.

 

[twaddle]

Kevin Hall did the Biggest Loser study above, but he's done much more too.

Of specific interest to the CI-CO tribe might be his model of macronutrient-specific effects. It's just math, but protein, in particular is not burned as efficiently as other nutrients.

The bigger issue is satiety, and he has done some great work on the satiety effects of ultra-processed food. Basically, your intake will vary *significantly* depending on what you eat. By several 100 calories per day, potentially.

In a nut-shell he found that whole-food plant-based is more satiating than low-carb, and low-carb is more satiating than a diet with ultra-processed food.

 

[melijov]

I put a bit on weight last year due to pandemics. Reached 210 pounds (I am 5'11). Tried different approaches and nothing quite worked until I mixed the following 3 methods:
1. Kept eating whole plant based diet (I have been a quasi vegan for the last 2 years)
2. Started calorie counting using www.cronometer.com. Now I am eating in average 1500 calories per day.
3. Started eating during a restricted window. In my case in the beginning from 10 am to 6 pm, but now from 10 am to 2 pm. I am using www.fastic.com to track this.

This has been working in a really good way. I am down to 190.4 pounds and losing every day from 0.2 to 0.3 pounds. I am going to keep doing this until I reach 170 pounds. After that I am going to increase the calorie intake to 1700 calories

 

[sengsational]

I'm focusing on optimizing my nutritional status and gut bacteria this year. I just got my first microbiome test results and the results were very informative and actionable. From what I've read, it seems like one has to eat plant based, not necessarily vegan, but lots of plants, especially different kinds of plants, to have optimal gut bacteria. But if you can have great gut bacteria on a low carb diet then good for you. I don't think I could figure out how to do that.

I didn't find microbiome tests very actionable. Where did you get your test done?

I started a thread 4.4 years ago (and languished for 374 days) about microbiome and health: https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f38/the-microbiome-file-83601.html

My hopes were that someone like 23andme would join forces with a microbiome sequencing company and come up with better explanations about health and disease.

 

[ddoorn]

Keeping it simple

I’ve gone through it ALL!

I’m a “failed” bariatric patient, formerly morbidly obese person having topped out at 450 pounds and finally over the past couple decades I’ve achieved a stable maintenance between 210-220 pounds. I say “failed” because I dropped from 450 to 280 but then BAM regained back up to 350, finally deciding I had to just keep it simple: stick with healthy foods and move more.

I was on Atkins way back before anyone knew about it in the 1970’s. I always fared best when I recognized my two demons, the two ingredients that were in any and all foods that would call my name until they they all GONE!: 1) Sugar and 2) Flour

Disallowing their presence in my home has been the cornerstone of my progress. I’m fine with carbs, but carbs from real and unprocessed foods: veggies, some fruits, legumes and nuts. I’ve finally achieved a peaceable truce with food and regard my freggies as my “Farm-acy.” I like to keep it as simple and unprocessed as possible.

For more about my journey:

https://www.sparkpeople.com/mypage.asp?id=DDOORN

Don

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I didn't find microbiome tests very actionable. Where did you get your test done?

I started a thread 4.4 years ago (and languished for 374 days) about microbiome and health: https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f38/the-microbiome-file-83601.html

My hopes were that someone like 23andme would join forces with a microbiome sequencing company and come up with better explanations about health and disease.

So far I've done Thryve, but I'm going to try a few others. I was thinking of doing 3 on the same day and compare the results next time. The last hospital test I had was $5K and didn't have any actionable results. These test are so easy and cheap to do in comparison and filled with good info, at least mine was. Like my akkermansia was relatively low, and that can be important for cancer prevention and necessary for responding to immunotherapy drugs, if I ever need them. My family has gotten interested and I've been buying kits for them, too.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

I have been on the lazy ketogenic diet now for 1 year. I originally was extremely diligent and lost 30 pounds to get back to my weight I had back in High School. Once I got there I went lazy meaning I stopped watching calories. I did watch my weight gain or loss and stopped some foods if I gain 1 kg. My main problem with the original keto diet was I also lost quite a bit of muscle mass. I slowly have built it back to "normal" without gaining much in weight and my body fat is around 10% which is fine for my age. I will add I also went to intermittent fasting at the same time and was doing one meal a day until I reached my goal weight. I backed that off a bit to a 20:4 fasting schedule with a snack load followed 3 hours later with a full dinner. I don't push fats but I still cut out all carbs I can and cook normally and substitute where possible to avoid carbs. I remain more or less keto and if I indulge in carbs too much I follow the next day with more caloric output and force myself back into ketosis. My wife is not doing this diet at all but has lost weight because I do the majority of the cooking. I will periodically cook a potato for her or rice and I don't have them myself. I used to make this god-awful keto bread but switched to using a single slice of Matzah bread (roughly 3 grams of carbs) as she will make chicken liver pate or cold smoked salmon types of things that require some kind of bread to eat. The keto bread is "okay" but is a pain to make and it is hard to find keto stuff here in Hungary. When I can get it I use it but when it is unavailable I don't bother.

I also tend to burn roughly 1,000 calories a day in exercise one way or another. I have had some issues of hitting the wall for energy when doing serious stuff like 2-hour mountain bike rides or a 15-kilometer hike in the hills. But, I have noticed that a year on now I am suffering less which I take to mean I have become "fat adapted". Meaning my body begins using fats immediately rather than a delay. I have noticed I don't breathe as hard anymore either when I go anaerobic which is extremely interesting. I also was suffering from exercise-induced arrhythmia whenever my pulse goes above 140. That is gone completely. I also don't have gastric reflux disease anymore either and my age spots on my hands have faded. I am unsure what any of that means but it is clear some good things are happening and I am attributing it to the autophagy from intermittent fasting.

All the benefits are scientifically proven and I am enjoying them. Is it safe? I suppose we will find out over time but I am committed to it. I admit to being in the group that believes cholesterol has nothing at all to do with CHD and have bet my life on it.

I also take zero medications and have no serious illnesses and I am 68 years old now. I am back to the same level of fitness I was at when I was in my 40's based on what I can do physically. I have always been active having been a serious sportsman all of my life and was a serious athlete in my 30's and 40's (marathons and triathlons). But I also was a Senior Ski Patroller for 20 years and was doing other nutty stuff like cross country ski racing, biathlon racing, ski, and running orienteering.

I lost all the cartilage in both knees (probably due to over-training but could also be from parachuting too much [I was doing demo jumps out of helicopters once a week for years]) and they removed both menisci so haven't run since those surgeries back in '99. My knees we pretty bad until I started keto but now are in great shape. I still don't run anymore but I hike, mountain bike, and snowboard without issues. I have some neck arthritis issues from some parachuting incidents as I was Special Forces part of my military career and had a couple of bad landings. But, I also use a vibration board for my daily calisthenics and the neck issues are dramatically better. I highly recommend using one as it really loosens up calcium deposits in arthritic tissues like the knees and neck.

I also got an Oculus Quest 2 which I use for exercising and it is fantastic! I am using Audio Trip, Synth Rider, Power Beats, Thrill of the Fight, and First Person Tennis in various combinations (until I hit 1,000 calories based on the YUR fitness app that tracks calories. I also wear the Oculus VR when stationary cycling where I do HIIT (high-intensity interval training) routines as part of my 35 minutes daily riding 3 times a week. YUR doesn't have the ability to track cycling so that is extra as are my calisthenics/weight training routines. So, likely I am burning around 1,200 calories a day or more if you add in gardening 2 hours a day. Yes, I spend a large part of my day working out.

 

[ncbill]

The closest Aldi has been on fire for fruits/vegetable deals this winter.

$1.20 for raspberries and strawberries. Nice big packs of strawberries. $1 for spinach and kale bundles. We always have fresh blueberries in the fridge along with grapes and apples. Heads of broccoli and cauliflower are cheap and go a long way.

Bananas are dirt cheap. Between Aldi, Walmart and a couple of other places there are some great finds out there.

Misfits Market doesn't serve our area. Might be worth trying.

https://www.misfitsmarket.com/

Sure, but we only buy what we need for the week when grocery shopping.

With the CSA box we were getting such large quantities of fresh veggies every couple of weeks that wouldn't keep for long that we felt we had to work them into our dinners every night so as not to waste money.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Everyone is different so what works for one person won’t work for another.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

For those of you interested in individualized diets and microbiome studies, I've been enjoying youtube tapes lectures by Tim Spector. Here is a summary article on what he has to say:

"The number one myth is that there is "one true diet" that works for all. People think that if they follow a low-fat, calorie-controlled diet, they’ll lose weight and be healthy. Others believe that a high fat, low carbohydrate diet is the only way. But we've seen from our PREDICT studies that there are eight-fold differences in responses of normal people eating identical foods. Other studies have also shown wide variations in weight loss between people following the same diet, regardless of whether it’s a low fat or low carb plan."

https://www.technologynetworks.com/...n-interview-with-professor-tim-spector-326736

 

[6miths]

A recent study from Cornell reviewing dietary habits in almost 30,000 individuals from 6 cohort studies which showed increased risk of CVD disease with processed meats, unprocessed red meats and poultry and increased all-cause mortality with processed meats and unprocessed red meats but not poultry. Fish intake was not associated with either outcome. Although the press picked up on the increased risks what wasn't mentioned was just how minuscule any increased risk was and that it was just barely statistically significant. After reading this I am definitely heading to Costco for a hot dog more often!

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...ign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=020320

 

[bloom2708]

For those of you interested in individualized diets and microbiome studies, I've been enjoying youtube tapes lectures by Tim Spector. Here is a summary article on what he has to say:

"The number one myth is that there is "one true diet" that works for all. People think that if they follow a low-fat, calorie-controlled diet, they’ll lose weight and be healthy. Others believe that a high fat, low carbohydrate diet is the only way. But we've seen from our PREDICT studies that there are eight-fold differences in responses of normal people eating identical foods. Other studies have also shown wide variations in weight loss between people following the same diet, regardless of whether it’s a low fat or low carb plan."

https://www.technologynetworks.com/...n-interview-with-professor-tim-spector-326736

Doesn't this presume that where you are at today, is where you stay?

Yes, today everyone's gut biome is adjusted to what they eat today. If you eat mostly meat/cheese/dairy, your gut biome reflects that.

But if that person eats plant based for 2 months, their gut biome will completely change.

The standard American diet has <10% of fruits and vegetables. Mostly processed food, meat and dairy. People get 3-5x the protein they need and 20% of the fibre. American guts reflect that.

 

[braumeister]

Although the press picked up on the increased risks what wasn't mentioned was just how minuscule any increased risk was and that it was just barely statistically significant.

Sounds like they were really torturing the statistics.

From the study:

the increased relative risks ranged from approximately 3% to 7%. The increased absolute risks were less than 2% over the 30 years of follow-up.

 

[twaddle]

Those studies torture the data and the reader. There are always so many confounders that you really have to trust their "adjustments." I don't.

Good interview of Kevin Hall published today in case anybody is interested. It includes a transcript. TL; DR: processed foods.

https://irp.nih.gov/podcast/2021/03/dr-kevin-hall-dueling-diets

 

[Amethyst]

I like "Farm-acy," very good neologism that kind of covers the bases.

my “Farm-acy.” I like to keep it as simple and unprocessed as possible.

For more about my journey:

https://www.sparkpeople.com/mypage.asp?id=DDOORN

Don