Diet Wars

tmm99 said:
I've just ordered several items (except for Osumex LB17 as I emailed them asking if their sachets are basically the same thing as the gel caps). I'm ready to start filling my gut with good bacteria!
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Are you planning on doing a weekly batch, fermenting the four different cultures, then mixing for consumption? What's holding me back from this is the labor involved...I'm not much of a kitchen guy. But if I could work on it one day, and have it last all week, that might be something I'd try.
 
sengsational said:
Interesting idea. The yogurt maker on Amazon I looked at this morning when reading OM posts was only $30. One difference is auto shut-off, but it would be interesting to hear of someone who regularly used both techniques as to the convenience of one over the other. I mean, if you're going to do it every day (as, apparently, OM does), you might find the water bath a bit less convenient than the dry chamber (at least I don't think the yogurt maker requires water... didn't look that closely).
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Makes sense. We already had a sous vide and I like to get more than one use out of a kitchen appliance. But the dedicated yogurt maker is much cheaper! Prior to the sous vide, I had rigged my dehydrator to make yogurt.
 
bloom2708 said:
Don't eat olive juice (aka olive oil), eat the olive
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I'm not quite sure this one works. Isn't it true that one can't eat the fruit of the olive tree unless it's pickled? Cold-pressed olive oil seems about as close to fresh olives as you can get. While I like preserved olives, most of the examples I've seen are pretty far from fresh fruit, with all the salt required in the pickling (or whatever you call what they do when they jar/can).
 
Not to mention, sauteing with whole olives, or even pitted ones, would be a bit of a challenge.

sengsational said:
I'm not quite sure this one works. Isn't it true that one can't eat the fruit of the olive tree unless it's pickled? Cold-pressed olive oil seems about as close to fresh olives as you can get. While I like preserved olives, most of the examples I've seen are pretty far from fresh fruit, with all the salt required in the pickling (or whatever you call what they do when they jar/can).
Click to expand...
 
sengsational said:
I'm not quite sure this one works. Isn't it true that one can't eat the fruit of the olive tree unless it's pickled? Cold-pressed olive oil seems about as close to fresh olives as you can get. While I like preserved olives, most of the examples I've seen are pretty far from fresh fruit, with all the salt required in the pickling (or whatever you call what they do when they jar/can).
Click to expand...

Some of the nutrition doctors I follow recommend making salad dressings from nut butters instead of oils as the nut butters have more nutrients. Olive oil gets a lot of good press lately, along with other foods as a part of a Mediterranean diet, but I have wondered if maybe the nut butters wouldn't be healthier.

I started making dressings and sauces with nut butters, like almond butter and sunflower butter, and then I mix them with some flavor ingredients, plus home made nut milk. I've been making my own nut milk with assorted nuts and seeds, especially pumpkin seeds as they are very high in zinc and magnesium. The dressings and sauces turn out pretty tasty and seem like they would be pretty nutrient filled compared to olive oil.

On the fermentation front, we eat different kinds of yogurt (store bought) plus a variety of other fermented foods every week, like kimchi, sourdough bread, and miso. Today for lunch I made a stir fry that included tempeh and a fermented black bean garlic sauce.

I started the kimchi after reading about Korean centenarians eating seaweed and fermented plant based foods for good sources of vitamin B12 - https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cggr/2010/374897/
 
sengsational -I didn't clarify that and it is interesting. There is a phenomenon of different strains all growing together they become competitive over time. The "normal" yogurt strains seem to become dominant with each passage. A passage is when you subculture from one container to make a new batch. I have a "newer" yogurt maker that has 7 300 ml glass jars. I take one jar from the current batch and use that to make a new 7 jars. I move over 2 tbsp to each of 6 new jars and leave the donor jar uncleaned and just add milk to the residual in that jar making the 7th jar. I do this twice then start fresh with a new tube of culture.

Each "new" batch is made by gently thawing the 5 ml tube in warm water and adding that to a jar and then add 100 ml of milk. I incubate that for 4 hours and then top it off with milk and incubate another 8 hours. From that, I make the remaining 7 jars. It isn't all that complicated but requires a bit of attention and remembering to subculture. It would be best to start fresh each week but like everyone, I get lazy.

Gremlin - congrats!! I agree with you and have excluded all carbs (at least those I can control) from my diet. There are tiny bits in everything though including meat so keeping below 20 grams a day is sometimes tough. I do lazy keto and just stick to things I know are all right and it generally works out. I don't bother using keto stick but instead, watch my weight. If I creep up a kg then I get more serious. I can balance it with exercise and in general burn 1,000 calories a day and can kick it up higher if I put on a kg. I believe that you begin to start making insulin again when your carb reserves get back above 1,800 calories worth or if blood glucose goes above 110. If the blood glucose can be controlled by diet from never exceeding ~110 then the body won't produce any insulin. Without insulin, you can't store fat at all. So, the secret to keto is actually controlling blood sugar. It doesn't take much to cause a burst of insulin and eating some foods causes the mind to do it without any sugar at all. Chemical additives, and in particular some artificial sweeteners actually cause insulin to spike without any carbs at all. I eat nothing that has any preservatives and only use Stevia or erythritol (both natural) as sweeteners as they have been proven to not cause an insulin spike. Starch is hard to control and I don't use any to cook with. I use tapioca flour or arrowroot flour as thickeners.

The key is to not make insulin at all and to eat in such a way that your blood glucose level never goes up. This is not a simple task. This is partially why I am doing OMAD and exercise hard to burn off any carbs that may have accumulated thus forcing ketosis. The process of autophagy won't begin until the body is convinced it is starving and then it begins to eat itself which is a good thing as it begins with damaged cells and organelles. This is why fasting has a direct effect on longevity. If you do keto correctly then you are in a state of fasting for roughly 12 hours a day and then can derive the benefits from autophagy. The alternative is to fast 24 hours once a week which is very hard.

A person on the keto diet actually doesn't get hungry at all. If you have hunger cravings it means you are out of ketosis and have insulin present. Insulin has a direct effect on the hormones that cause hunger and cravings. I am not hungry at all until I start to eat and then a few minutes later I am ravenous. This is a sign I am having insulin problems. I then have to get serious again and start counting the carbs and calories. My larger problem when I am doing it right is to force myself to eat enough as I just am not all that hungry and get full quickly.
 
daylatedollarshort - you have the right idea but commercial products are often facsimiles of natural things and made using artificial (but inexpensive) methods. Kimchi is another good fermented food product as is Kombucha but again, best if made at home as you know what is in there and how it was prepared. My wife, being Russian, makes a bunch of stuff naturally. We have "cold smoked" salmon from wild-caught salmon she gets and then ferments it (not sure of the method and what she is using) and it sits 2 days at room temp and then another 3 in the refrigerator. She then slices it thin and freezes batches. It is basically raw but very tasty. We have this or salmon roe every day. She also pickles tomatoes, gurkins, and wild mushrooms in addition to the large container we always have on hand of her homemade sauer kraut. She also makes her own jams (which I don't eat) and Cranberrry vodka (I also can't eat as it is 40% sugar). My wife is not on the keto diet at all except I cook 5 days a week as she is a day trader on the US market so unavailable to cook M-F. I try and use her fermented stuff as often as I can. Vodka is often drunk with each meal, especially if there is fish. Something to do with a requirement because of a Russian movie. "You can't eat herring without Vodka!!". Oh yeah, we eat herring a lot also. Fish is present in almost every meal at least to some extent. When I am lazy I use a single slice of Matza bread broken into tiny pieces. It costs me 3 grams of carbs for one slice of matza. Otherwise, I make keto mug bread using almond or coconut flour.
 
Kefir is easy to make and tastes great. It is a very good source of probiotics. All you need are starter grains. Mine are probably 10 years old at this point and still going strong. I drink a glass of strong milk kefir every day. Much, much better and healthier than the stuff you buy ready made.
 
This seems like a lot of vigilance around eating, if one is not diabetic.

I weigh the same as I did at age 18, and don't need to lose weight. In fact, for the sake of bone health, I probably should weigh more. I don't follow any particular diet, and rarely get genuinely hungry - stomach growling, pangs, and all that. My need to eat is sometimes signaled by feeling tired. What does that indicate?


Old Microbiologist said:
Gremlin - congrats!! I agree with you and have excluded all carbs (at least those I can control) from my diet. There are tiny bits in everything though including meat so keeping below 20 grams a day is sometimes tough. I do lazy keto and just stick to things I know are all right and it generally works out. I don't bother using keto stick but instead, watch my weight. If I creep up a kg then I get more serious. I can balance it with exercise and in general burn 1,000 calories a day and can kick it up higher if I put on a kg. I believe that you begin to start making insulin again when your carb reserves get back above 1,800 calories worth or if blood glucose goes above 110. If the blood glucose can be controlled by diet from never exceeding ~110 then the body won't produce any insulin. Without insulin, you can't store fat at all. So, the secret to keto is actually controlling blood sugar. It doesn't take much to cause a burst of insulin and eating some foods causes the mind to do it without any sugar at all. Chemical additives, and in particular some artificial sweeteners actually cause insulin to spike without any carbs at all. I eat nothing that has any preservatives and only use Stevia or erythritol (both natural) as sweeteners as they have been proven to not cause an insulin spike. Starch is hard to control and I don't use any to cook with. I use tapioca flour or arrowroot flour as thickeners.

The key is to not make insulin at all and to eat in such a way that your blood glucose level never goes up. This is not a simple task. This is partially why I am doing OMAD and exercise hard to burn off any carbs that may have accumulated thus forcing ketosis. The process of autophagy won't begin until the body is convinced it is starving and then it begins to eat itself which is a good thing as it begins with damaged cells and organelles. This is why fasting has a direct effect on longevity. If you do keto correctly then you are in a state of fasting for roughly 12 hours a day and then can derive the benefits from autophagy. The alternative is to fast 24 hours once a week which is very hard.

A person on the keto diet actually doesn't get hungry at all. If you have hunger cravings it means you are out of ketosis and have insulin present. Insulin has a direct effect on the hormones that cause hunger and cravings. I am not hungry at all until I start to eat and then a few minutes later I am ravenous. This is a sign I am having insulin problems. I then have to get serious again and start counting the carbs and calories. My larger problem when I am doing it right is to force myself to eat enough as I just am not all that hungry and get full quickly.
Click to expand...
 
Amethyst said:
I weigh the same as I did at age 18, and don't need to lose weight. In fact, for the sake of bone health, I probably should weigh more. I don't follow any particular diet, and rarely get genuinely hungry - stomach growling, pangs, and all that. My need to eat is sometimes signaled by feeling tired. What does that indicate?
Click to expand...

Several polymorphisms have been identified as associated with obesity, including those associated with food reward. It's definitely more complex than just carbs and insulin.

Plus, Hall recently compared plant-based vs keto diets. The plant-based group lost more weight and had higher insulin.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-01209-1

I've got nothing against carb restriction -- it worked great for me. But it's not the only path.
 
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Old Microbiologist said:
daylatedollarshort - you have the right idea but commercial products are often facsimiles of natural things and made using artificial (but inexpensive) methods. Kimchi is another good fermented food product as is Kombucha but again, best if made at home as you know what is in there and how it was prepared.
Click to expand...

The kimchi I have now was bought refrigerated from Whole Foods, lists only natural ingredients and says it contains probiotics, so it seems legit. I do have learning to make kimchi and yogurt at home on my list of things to do. I have two yogurt makers (one was a gift), a seed sprouter and microgreen trays waiting to be set up.

I had a good score in bacterial diversity on my recent gut test but I was low in some beneficial bacteria strains, so I'm hoping some diet changes like the kimchi, for B12 absorption, and cranberries in my morning smoothies, for akkermansia, will help.

My recent combo of gut and nutrition testing has been pretty interesting so far. The gut test showed I was low in bacteria needed to help absorb B12 and the follow up blood test confirmed I was borderline low in B12, even though I'm pretty careful to get the DV% each day in my diet. I'm eating more cheddar cheese, kimchi and clam chowder in my diet so I'll see what happens to my gut bacteria and B12 levels on my retests.

Link on cheddar cheese as a good source of B12 absorption - https://dairyresearchblog.ca/2020/02/17/vitamin-b12-is-better-absorbed-from-dairy-products/.
 
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daylatedollarshort said:
The kimchi I have now was bought refrigerated from Whole Foods, lists only natural ingredients and says it contains probiotics, so it seems legit........../[/URL].
Click to expand...

Its legit and has probiotics if your pets, friends and family run screaming from the kitchen when you open the container. :nonono:
 
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sengsational said:
Are you planning on doing a weekly batch, fermenting the four different cultures, then mixing for consumption? What's holding me back from this is the labor involved...I'm not much of a kitchen guy. But if I could work on it one day, and have it last all week, that might be something I'd try.
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to re-read the recipe, but I thought you could just add all 4 caps (one each from each product) in the same milk and then split that into other containers after you propagate the bacteria for 5 hours or something?

I've got the test tubes now (so I can save some bacteria to use as a starter later on) - I'm still waiting for all the ingredients, but I may try a batch with fewer strains and see how it goes. The purpose of doing this is to get more bang for the buck from probiotic supplements, so that's what I intend to do...
 
Can you explain the use of "polymorphism" in this context? I have only ever seen it in a computer science context. Also I am not quite sure how it relates to my post.

twaddle said:
Several polymorphisms have been identified as associated with obesity, including those associated with food reward. It's definitely more complex than just carbs and insulin.

Plus, Hall recently compared plant-based vs keto diets. The plant-based group lost more weight and had higher insulin.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-01209-1

I've got nothing against carb restriction -- it worked great for me. But it's not the only path.
Click to expand...
 
Amethyst said:
This seems like a lot of vigilance around eating, if one is not diabetic.

I weigh the same as I did at age 18, and don't need to lose weight. In fact, for the sake of bone health, I probably should weigh more. I don't follow any particular diet, and rarely get genuinely hungry - stomach growling, pangs, and all that. My need to eat is sometimes signaled by feeling tired. What does that indicate?
Click to expand...

Amethyst, it sound like you are healthy and doing just fine. Keep up the good work!:)
 
Amethyst said:
I'm still wondering why I used to feel hunger pangs, but lately am more likely to notice fatigue instead.
Click to expand...

I have no idea, but I can offer random factoids.

Low-blood sugar can have that effect, but I think you said you're not diabetic. There are various reasons for hypoglycemia even for non-diabetics -- might be worth discussing with a doc.

Both fatigue and loss of appetite can be side-effects of inflammation. We've all experienced this as "sickness behavior" with a flu, for example.
 
Old Microbiologist said:
s
The key is to not make insulin at all and to eat in such a way that your blood glucose level never goes up. This is not a simple task. This is partially why I am doing OMAD and exercise hard to burn off any carbs that may have accumulated thus forcing ketosis. The process of autophagy won't begin until the body is convinced it is starving and then it begins to eat itself which is a good thing as it begins with damaged cells and organelles. This is why fasting has a direct effect on longevity. If you do keto correctly then you are in a state of fasting for roughly 12 hours a day and then can derive the benefits from autophagy. The alternative is to fast 24 hours once a week which is very hard.
Click to expand...

The is patently false. You are saying insulin is just an extra process for the body? Not required? Whew.

Eating to not move your blood sugar for a healthy non Type 1 of Type 2 person is just not good advice.

Insulin resistance is a real danger, but is caused by fat blocking the cells and reducing the affect of insulin.
 
tmm99 said:
I'm going to have to re-read the recipe, but I thought you could just add all 4 caps (one each from each product) in the same milk and then split that into other containers after you propagate the bacteria for 5 hours or something?

I've got the test tubes now (so I can save some bacteria to use as a starter later on) - I'm still waiting for all the ingredients, but I may try a batch with fewer strains and see how it goes. The purpose of doing this is to get more bang for the buck from probiotic supplements, so that's what I intend to do...
Click to expand...
The bang for the buck is where I'm coming from too.

From what I understand from fermenting beer (LOL), is that in mixed fermentation, one or maybe a few strains will dominate. So you might think equal access to food, they'd all get their fair share, but I'm not sure that's quite how it works. This is why (in my interpretation of OM's process) he cultivates each of the 4 separately at the beginning of a batch, only later combining those for consumption. Even then, using a non-mono strain, one doesn't know which strain is doing the most multiplying.

The good news is that the counts are going to go up for everything, and way up for some. So, again, bang for the buck.
 
sengsational said:
From what I understand from fermenting beer (LOL), is that in mixed fermentation, one or maybe a few strains will dominate. So you might think equal access to food, they'd all get their fair share, but I'm not sure that's quite how it works.
Click to expand...

As you surmise, it's more complicated than that. Multiple strains are certainly competing with each other, but in some cases the byproduct of one strain becomes the feedstock for another strain. So there is generally a sequence where the strain that is most active varies over time. I have seen breweries (especially in Europe) where five to seven completely different strains are the norm for some beers, and as many as eleven (that they were aware of :cool: ).

In fact, I know of one European beer (I won't say which one) that regularly invites graduate students in to do a census of one of their fermenting vessels. They usually come up with between 200 and 300 different critters and get a nice thesis out of it!
 
bloom2708 said:
...
Click to expand...
Your interpretation of OM's description of using the presence of insulin in a weight control setting is quite different from the way I interpreted it. I understand that many people don't agree that swapping the main source of fuel for the body is a good thing, but if it works for someone, no matter the mechanism, then it works. Same can be said for low fat.
 
Just curious for those on you on keto type diets... Do you test for things like acidic pH, high end platelet counts or high IGF-1 levels, which some studies show are biomarkers for types of cancer?


ETA: Also bacterial diversity?
 
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