The Cryptocurrency Thread

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braumeister

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Finally gave in

Help me understand

so we finally have

bitcoin time to sell
 
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Good idea thanks.

And a small congrats to Ethereum making an all time high today just over $4500
 
Thanks mods!

Makes it much easier for those of us who have no interest in the subject to put only one thread on ignore.

Hey, don't knock it. I bought a few shares of BRPHF yesterday, after reading that several other members hold it. It went up 11.11% today.

Is it too early to go WHEEEEEE!!! ? :popcorn:
 
Good idea thanks.

And a small congrats to Ethereum making an all time high today just over $4500
I haven't looked at my meager holdings in a long time. I got a miniscule amount of Ethereum at $85 IIRC.
 
I also broke down recently and put some “play money” into crypto. There are a lot of good YouTube channels (and a lot of bad ones) that described how it all works. “Full Value Dan” and “Max Maher” do a great job breaking down crypto investing into understandable content, and are a good place to start if you’re thinking about dipping your toe in.

Good luck to all those venturing into crypto… we’ve got a lot to learn.
 
Well my plan is to wait until Chuckanut gets his time machine fixed, hitch a ride back to July 2010, and buy $1000 worth of bitcoin at $0.08 each then fly back to yesterday and sell it all. And I will pay my capital gains taxes. I'm sure Chuckanut will want a cut too.
 
Everyone (except 37) who has mentioned on this and other recent threads that they have bought bitcoin suggest that they bought for speculative reasons. I see nothing wrong with that. It turns out to have been a good speculation. You should all pat yourselves on the back. I mean that sincerely. I've made some speculative buys in my life, some have paid extremely well and some turned into total losses.

But I still do not see the long term value in a cryptocurrency that has no economic value that anyone seems to be able to explain. A USD, CAD, AUD, euro, yuan, peso, etc. has value as a convenient medium of exchange. Bitcoin is far from convenient. I can't go to the grocery store and buy a bag of apples or a six pack with it, at least not yet. Maybe it will get there, maybe it will not.

I do see a lot of value in its use by criminals and tax cheats and I think that is what has driven its growth. But that evaporates once transacions are traceable to individuals which I think is both imminent and inevitable.

In a previous thread it was mentioned that all currencies decline in value over time. Yes they do and we call that inflation. But there is a broader economic system in play. In general governments, banks, and other borrowers must pay a little bit over inflation to attract capital. Government bonds, at least the 10-year US Treasuries, are generally considered risk free (because the government can always print money to pay them). Those have typically yielded at roughly the inflation rate for a long time. Other bonds typically are priced to yield slightly more or less based on their relative risk. Equities have historically paid a 6% risk premium. It is hard to do the research but peopel who do this kind of work think they have evidence that the same relative relationships existed hundreds of years ago and possibly in ancient Rome.

So the way to store value is to accept a little risk. And the flip side is that your return generally reflects the risk you are taking. The returns of bitcoin are screaming high risk.
 
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^^^^^^There ought to be plenty of inflation coming with Ether and any other coin intended to be produced in unlimited supply.
 
But I still do not see the long term value in a cryptocurrency that has no economic value that anyone seems to be able to explain. A USD, CAD, AUD, euro, yuan, peso, etc. has value as a convenient medium of exchange. Bitcoin is far from convenient. I can't go to the grocery store and buy a bag of apples or a six pack with it, at least not yet. Maybe it will get there, maybe it will not.

In terms of what gives value to Bitcoin, its a simple economic equation of demand (for a perfectly limited supply). If demand does up, price will follow. So what we, as asset allocators simply need to do, it make a likely assessment of the future demand for Bitcoin. Its essentially binary - demand goes up, price goes up.[MOD EDIT]
As to use of Bitcoin "not being convenient", most people find it incredibly convenient as a store of value, especially with all the properties of fixed supply, infinite divisibility, transferability, and lack of counterparty risk. And indeed, for some (maybe not as many here in the US, they actually find the "traditional banking system" incredibility inconvenient, or even entirely inaccessible. Its really all a matter of perspective.

In terms of use in commerce, there is the second layer lightening network which processes thousands of transactions (use for example in El Salvador where Sats are now legal tender).

Right across Africa, we are seeing massive growth of the use of Sats in commerce. Bitcoin has been a godsend of hope to the unbanked, the small entrepreneurs, the housewives wanting to save, people wanting to transfer money, people wanting protection against incompetent and corrupt governments. In Kenya, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and South Africa, use of Sats over the lightening network it rocketing up. I was amazed on my last visit to Kenya, to witness broad use of Bitcoin (and that was nearly several years ago now). For many small and medium retailers in Africa, 5-15% of total transactions are now in Bitcoin. All they really need is a phone, and a lightening wallet.

A good article that explains what is occurring in Africa is here:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/africa-leading-retail-bitcoin-payments

Meanwhile, yes, actually you can go to any store that accepts a Visa or Mastercard which has Bitcoin enabled on the backend. On the front-end, the transaction can be seamless and in fiat currency for those who want it, but for a person who want to deal in Sats (either as the buyer or the seller) this is entirely doable. You can ask your bank about this if of interest, or contact a provider such as www.bakkt.com (now a listed company). See for example here:

https://investors.bakkt.com/news/ne...ive-Crypto-and-Loyalty-Solutions/default.aspx

In Australia, the country's largest bank has announced it will include Bitcoin in its banking app for all customers. (And once one bank starts, others of course are compelled to follow. We will of course see banks start to roll this our here too). An article about this is here:

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/link...ly-planning-to-add-crypto-support-to-its-app?

You need not worry about being compelled to use Bitcoin in transactions when you go shopping (at least not yet!). But the option is certainly there for you to do so, and this becoming more visible and viable every day. Technological adoption happens over time, and comfort and acceptance of new technology also takes time, but often both occur at an exponential pace once a certain "critical momentum" is reached. In the US, I think its far more likely we will first see BTC used primarily as a store of value and defence against a declining currency, but then over time see it integrated to fiat currency conversions for micropayments. For Visa and Mastercard, they really have no choice but to adopt. PayPal, Square, Stripe, Crypto.com, etc are all already well on their way, so the big players now are rapidly following.

Hope that helps!
 
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^^^^^^There ought to be plenty of inflation coming with Ether and any other coin intended to be produced in unlimited supply.

Absolutely correct. This is what makes BTC unique, and why we would be wise to avoid alts. Its a very important distinction, which not all understand, but lessons will be learned (and indeed, alt newbies are "taught a lesson" every crypto cycle we have had, much like how "penny stock" investors learn a lesson over time).
 
Do we want to delve into Ethereum’s fork including burning gas and proof of stake vs proof of work?

I own and trade BTC, ETH, and a very small amount of LTC. I trade (but don’t keep) Doge. I have small amounts of Solano and several of the other altcoins.
 
^^^^^^There ought to be plenty of inflation coming with Ether and any other coin intended to be produced in unlimited supply.



I would say ETH is now deflationary with the burning and proof of work lockup’s
 
BTC as the king of crypto is like watching the GME meme stock thing. GME was the first real meme stock to explode. Then [mod edit] went looking for the next new high flyer and soon dozens of meme stocks started to get bought up in hopes of the next big up move. This diluted the money flow among too many issues and they all drifted lower. Once in a while one of these will pop up due to the next new "squeeze" story (they have to create new stories all the time). Crypto is very similar. Animal spirits at work. Dogecoin, Shiba inu, which one is next?
 
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BTC has been growing for 12 years so I give it more credit than just market manipulation.

Yes meme coins are a different game completely
 
https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...ypto-purchase-today-111411-2.html#post2683128

I'm wondering if it's possible to answer a question in words, rather that a series of tube posts.

Your question basically is "what is revolutionary about Bitcoin (but I don't want to watch videos on the topic)", correct?

If so, I would say at the outset, that it will require time for anyone to understand key core aspects of Bitcoin. These include topics beyond just the underlying blockchain technology, including delving into areas such as economics (both micro and macro), psychology, philosophy, history, politics, law (just to mention a few!).

However, as to your specific question, where I started on my journey was reading Satoshi's whitepaper on peer to peer electronic cash. You can view this here:

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

What Satoshi and his early collaborators proposed was a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust. They started with the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of ownership, but the problem they solved was that this system was incomplete without a way to prevent so-called "double-spending" (think "money printing" in the old world of paper money). To solve this, they proposed a peer-to-peer network (using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions) which then quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes control a majority of CPU power.

For me, it was really enlightening as I had already been considering similar problems. The solution that Satoshi proposed was brilliant and revolutionary. I fully understand that reading the whitepaper is not for everyone - you really need to be mathematically and engineering inclined to appreciate his paper. I fully get that. But it was out there, it was public, and Bitcoin was open for anyone in the world to participate in from day #1 in terms of mining (including of course Satoshi himself who had to mine his own coins).

So what happened after that was that we literally got to witness the immaculate conception of Bitcoin, as the first coin ever was hashed. (Imagine if you could literally see gold as a new metallic chemical element being "created", or if you were a Christian literally seeing the birth of Christ). This is what our generation literally witnessed and is part of in relation to Bitcoin.

The creation of Bitcoin was the first time, both in human history and indeed in the history of our plant, that a natively digital decentralized global currency was conceived - first used by a small group of dreamers, cypher-punks, programmers, geeks, gamers, philosophers, libertarians etc, and from then on just growing and growing and growing, defeating every hurdle raised along the way. It is not often that a movement of the people succeeds over the might of globally entrenched powers, but I believe this is happening. We all have the literally "once in lifetime" (indeed "once in a generation") opportunity to become a part of this. Especially those of us with both access to information, the internet, and with existing wealth stored in fiat currencies.

The revolutionary part (both technologically, politically, philosophically, and economically) is that no longer can any ruler dictate what we as individual citizens may collectively use among ourselves as both a store of value and medium of exchange. This is indeed also why America is becoming a global leader in this area, due to our strong belief in individual freedoms both for the US and globally (not to mention the rights enshrined in our Constitution) and why you see resistance in some communist countries such as China who take more of a collectivist/authoritarian approach to human freedoms.

No longer do we have Governments or other power structures printing "money" which they mandate we use (and of course which they control). And no longer do we need to rely on intermediaries such as banks to control (and effectively steal) our money for their "services". We now have a digitally native, globally universally consistent and accepted currency. And that is a truly revolutionary moment for us as a global civilization.

As to the even more basic question people ask "just tell me what the price will be in 10 years!", I'm not going to answer that. What I will say is that at current prices, Bitcoin has around 10% the market cap of gold. So a parity of wealth stored in Bitcoin would bring BTC to around the 600K per coin level. We have a new halvening likely to occur some time in 2025, which will significantly increase mining difficulting (leading to a decreased supply of newly mined coins resulting in price appreciation assuming demand stays constant). And we have the potential for absolutely MASSIVE adoption from the masses in developing countries on the one hand, and from the world's largest financial institutions on the other. So its certainly quite feasible that we could see BTC at over 1m per coin in the next 5-8 years. By that point, the "common man" will likely be speaking about Bitcoin in terms of Sats for daily transactions (100,000,000 Sats : 1 BTC) with only the institutions and "Bitcoin OGs" still referring to value in Bitcoin. There will also be a huge societal distinction between "whole-coiners" (people who have more than a coin of wealth to their family name), "Sat-workers" who are people scrapping away stacking smaller amounts of Sats but far from having a whole coin, to "no-coiners" (newly born people who have no Sats to their name, or those who failed to adopt when Bitcoin was emerging, whether out of ignorance, lack of opportunity etc).
[MOD EDIT]
Hope that helps. Again, hard to summarize it all in a single post.

I strongly urge anyone who has an interest to do some research. There's some great content out there, and much if it is (for better or worse) on media such as YouTube. If you prefer more of a reading format, www.bitcointalk.org is a great resource.

There are also may great books on Bitcoin. One I suggest starting with is "The Bitcoin Standard" by economist and academic Dr. Saifedean Ammous.

Good luck!
 
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Your question basically is "what is revolutionary about Bitcoin (but I don't want to watch videos on the topic)", correct?

I'm in the same camp. I don't waste my time on videos because they are pretty impossible to fact check because most boil down to a salesman (or equivalent evangelist) just expressing their unsupported opinion.

What I will say is that at current prices, Bitcoin has around 10% the market cap of gold.

As opposed to the video, we can fact check your claim about the market cap of gold.

The market cap of gold is about $10 trillion (between $9.022 T and $13.534 T) https://companiesmarketcap.com/gold/marketcap/

The market cap of bitcoin is 1.182T https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

So your claim that bitcoin has about 1/10 the market cap of gold can be verified as roughly correct. The wild claims in videos are just too hard to fact check.

Although, I heard on NPR just today that the market cap of bitcoin is ~$2.5 trillion.

So we have two reputable sources that disagree by a factor of 2. Why should we put any faith at all in video sources with a vested interest in pushing reckless purchases of bitcoin on margin?

That's why videos are a poor source for issues like this.
 
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Everyone (except 37) who has mentioned on this and other recent threads that they have bought bitcoin suggest that they bought for speculative reasons.

It is long term holding for me, I have six-figure investment in crypto, major holdings YTD gains: Bitcoin +113%, Etheruem +525%, Solana +12,905%, Cardano +1,062%, Polkadot +540%.

We are still in ground zero, just my opinion...
 
I don't waste my time on videos because they are pretty impossible to fact check because most boil down to a salesman (or equivalent evangelist) just expressing their unsupported opinion.


The market cap of gold is about $10 trillion (between $9.022 T and $13.534 T) https://companiesmarketcap.com/gold/marketcap/

The market cap of bitcoin is 1.182T https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

So your claim that bitcoin has about 1/10 the market cap of gold can be verified as roughly correct. The wild claims in videos are just too hard to fact check.

Although, I heard on NPR just today that the market cap of bitcoin is ~$2.5 trillion.

So we have two reputable sources that disagree by a factor of 2. Why should we put any faith at all in video sources with a vested interest in pushing reckless purchases of bitcoin on margin?

That's why videos are a poor source for issues like this.

The Bitcoin blockchain ledger is public. We know exactly how many coins already exist (so take approx 19,000,000 and multiply that by the price, say approx USD 62K per coin) and that gives you the exact market cap. We can do roughly the same with gold although no one knows precisely how much gold has been mined nor how much in fact actually exists which is still unmined.

For youtube videos, you need to weed out the nonsense and go for channels and presenters who are credible. Further, not all discussions are "fact based". For example, many of the discussions I enjoy related to Bitcoin are more moral, philosophical or economic in nature. Rightly or wrongly, in the area of new societal trends, YouTube and Twitter etc are key resources for information dissemination. The result though, is you get a wide range and variance of quality.
 
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