CC for unmanned machines in Europe

[Lsbcal]

If an unmanned European machine (like a Dutch train ticket machine) asks for a PIN, have you used a debit card for this? Or perhaps just Euros?

We carry debit cards (chip + PIN) for cash advances from bank ATM's. Normally for things like train tickets we would use a CC (chip + signature), but I've read that sometimes one encounters a machine that demands a PIN.

This is from the Rick Steves site:

Some payment machines may prompt you to enter your PIN. Because you might run into this, it's important to contact your bank well before your trip to request your card's PIN (if your bank says the PIN is only for cash withdrawals, ask for it anyway). Be sure to allow time to receive your PIN by mail.

Even armed with an chip card and a PIN, you may still hit some bumps in the road. US chip-and-signature cards are not configured for offline transactions (in which the card is securely validated without a real-time connection to the bank). This is a common hassle at unmanned payment terminals, such as Dutch train ticket machines, French toll plazas, and out-of-the-way Swiss gas stations.

If a self-service payment machine won't accept your card, look for a cashier nearby who can process your card manually. (For this reason, it's a good idea to allow a little extra time at train stations and the like, as staffed service windows almost always have longer lines than ticket machines.) Since most payment machines take cash, it's also smart to keep spare change handy in case there's no cashier nearby (for highway toll booths, parking garages, luggage lockers, bike-rental kiosks, etc.).

Sorry if this was discussed before, I cannot find that thread.

 

[audreyh1]

If an unmanned European machine (like a Dutch train ticket machine) asks for a PIN, have you used a debit card for this?

We carry debit cards (chip + PIN) for cash advances from bank ATM's. Normally for things like train tickets we would use a CC (chip + signature), but I've read that sometimes one encounters a machine that demands a PIN.

This is from the Rick Steves site:
Sorry if this was discussed before, I cannot find that thread.

At the airport, I was able to use my Fidelity Cash Management debit card (VISA) with chip at the rail kiosks. It prompted me for PIN and I used the debit card PIN. It accepted and the transaction went through. This was the third card I tried.

I couldn't get either of my travel credit cards to work. I tried my PenFed chip and PIN card which it said it was invalid - wouldn't even read the card. This card has been reported as successful at Amsterdam Centraal train station, but for some reason didn't work at Schiphol kiosks. It had worked for me in some cities, but not others - seemed to depend on the transportation company. I tried my BofA credit card (chip but no PIN) hoping it wouldn't ask for the PIN, but it accepted the card and asked for a PIN. Canceled that. Finally tried the debit card with chip route which worked.

In France, at their rail kiosks, I was also successful with the Fidelity Cash Management debit VISA. But these machines accepted my card without requiring a PIN! There was probably some limit on the transaction amount - I think I got up to €30 with no probs. Anyway - since that card worked, I kept using it. I did incur a 1% FT fee on those small transactions, but for me the convenience was well worth it. That debit card has 0% FTF when used at an ATM (which always required the PIN to function).

I was really glad I had called Fidelity before the trip and requested updated debit cards with chip.

 

[smurray5991]

For Schwab clients: I just received a new debit card for my (old) Schwab One account, and this chip card has the ability to create a PIN for use at non-attended kiosks internationally. (Haven't tried it yet, but that's what they claim).

 

[audreyh1]

Here is the long and winding thread covering recent years: http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/chip-and-pin-credit-cards-for-europe-71593.html

The above is my "executive summary".

 

[Lsbcal]

At the airport, I was able to use my Fidelity Cash Management debit card (VISA) with chip at the rail kiosks. It prompted me for PIN and I used the debit card PIN. It accepted and the transaction went through. This was the third card I tried.
...

I was really glad I had called Fidelity before the trip and requested updated debit cards with chip.

Thanks Audrey. We have a Schwab debit card which will be coming this month with a chip (previous was mag strip). It is also NTF. I'll make sure it is operational for travel.

 

[audreyh1]

For Schwab clients: I just received a new debit card for my (old) Schwab One account, and this chip card has the ability to create a PIN for use at non-attended kiosks internationally. (Haven't tried it yet, but that's what they claim).

I would expect the existing PIN to work just fine as long as it is four digits.

 

[nun]

CapitalOne has a number of credit cards with no fee for foreign transactions and I've used mine to pay for gas etc overseas.

 

[audreyh1]

Thanks Audrey. We have a Schwab debit card which will be coming this month with a chip (previous was mag strip). It is also NTF. I'll make sure it is operational for travel.

That should work. I also had the Schwab debit card with chip with me. At first in my travels I segregated the two cards using Schwab for ATM withdrawals and Fidelity for debit transactions at unattended kiosks.

Later I confirmed that the Fidelity debit card did not charge any fees for ATM withdrawals. So I used both cards ultimately for ATM withdrawals. Was getting a little low on my Schwab checking account.

Next time I'll try reversing the roles - using Schwab for debit transactions at unattended kiosks, and Fidelity for ATM withdrawals.

 

[Gotadimple]

CapitalOne has a number of credit cards with no fee for foreign transactions and I've used mine to pay for gas etc overseas.

In my research on this, they are great cards, but they are chip and signature, so you might not be able to use them at an unmanned kiosk.

- Rita

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Any cards from Barclay will work in the Dutch machines. Although they are chip and signature cards, they also have a PIN that you can use. I live in Germany, but am in the Netherlands almost daily, and have had no problems with Barclay cards. Used it in Amsterdam, and 2 days ago at the Eindhoven airport.

 

[audreyh1]

One thing about using chipped debit versus credit cards in Europe:

Some kiosks are quite picky about the machines they accept. And may not accept US issued credit cards at all, but will accept the debit card as it is a direct bank transaction.

I was soundly ridiculed on a TripAdvisor thread for using a debit card with no PIN in the French SNCF machines. (Not so friendly some of those threads with a "destination expert" lording it over posters).

But I thought about it, and I didn't think my risks were very high at all. First of all - and quite important - none of the French SNCF machines had captured my PIN!!! No one was going to be able to dup my debit card and go to an ATM machine and drain my account. At most they might be able to buy some train tickets or some low € purchases if they were able to physically duplicate my chip and PIN card.

Also, as long as I didn't physically lose the debit card, I felt risks were super low. If the card did vanish I had to act immediately - OK, no prob.

Thirdly, with any Fidelity ATM card debit usage I got an immediate phone message that the card had been used. That was very reassuring. Unfortunately, Schwab doesn't have this alert feature.

DH and I each had a debit card with different card numbers. So if one was compromised, the other was still available.

Finally, the checking account I used was a standalone one not linked to any of my bill paying or brokerages or other accounts. I could manage the exposure simply by managing the amount in the account. And, of course, I had back up checking accounts and debit cards in case the worst happened.

But overall, I was quite pleased at being able to use the card for small amounts without exposing my PIN. And that card stayed securely tucked away in my under-the-clothes waist belt otherwise. It was just so convenient, that I didn't try any other card for local train tickets as we traveled all over France. Time is always so short when you are a tourist!

BTW - any longer distance train ticket has to be reserved ahead in France and you get a huge discount if you buy in advance, and usually ability to cancel with minimal if any fees. I used captaintrain.com (now trainline.eu)

Trainmen says they now cover France, Germany, Italy, Spain and are adding Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg). I have also bought tickets across international boundaries from them as long as the trip started in one of the supported countries.

 

[explanade]

Any cards from Barclay will work in the Dutch machines. Although they are chip and signature cards, they also have a PIN that you can use. I live in Germany, but am in the Netherlands almost daily, and have had no problems with Barclay cards. Used it in Amsterdam, and 2 days ago at the Eindhoven airport.

I had the Barclays Arrival Plus for one year and I used that at a gas station near Avignon, France which was unmanned. It supports offline PIN.

I then replaced it with the First Tech Federal Credit Union MasterCard, which was also offline PIN. It worked for me at Belgian Rail ticket kiosks where my other chipped cards did not. No annual fee so I'm keeping it indefinitely though I use other cards sor the rewards and the convenience. You have to open a bank account with First Tech and in order to pay off the card, you have to first transfer money to the bank account and then transfer it to the credit card account.

It also appears MasterCard is better than Visa about supporting PIN.

 

[Bamaman]

I carry two Visa cards and two ATM cards when I travel.

While my Visa accounts have 4 digit number PIN's, I never use the credit card PIN's and reset them prior to going on any trip to remember them.

I use one credit card when traveling--every time a credit card can be used. They come with rights and legal benefits that an ATM card just doesn't have.

I don't want to touch my checking account unless absolutely required, and the few cash withdrawals I make are always at bank ATM's. I only use my credit union checking account when I travel and just leave enough money in it for what my travel requires. And it doesn't have overdraft privileges like my regular Wells Fargo checking account.

Speaking of Wells Fargo ATM's: They charge a ridiculous $5 per transaction and 3% overcharge on the amount advanced from an out of the country ATM. They're just for emergency use.

 

[braumeister]

I then replaced it with the First Tech Federal Credit Union MasterCard, which was also offline PIN. It worked for me at Belgian Rail ticket kiosks where my other chipped cards did not.

Very interesting. My Andrews FCU Visa has been my go-to card in that sort of situation and generally works fine. But at the Belgian Rail kiosks it's hit or miss. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. How much have you used it over there? Have you used it at gas pumps too?

 

[explanade]

On my Belgium trip, I didn't drive. But like I said, it was the only way I bought train tickets.

I will be driving in Majorca in April so we will see how that goes.

 

[Chuckanut]

I have an 'ordinary' Barclays Arrival card (not the plus) and last year in Italy it never worked for me in train ticket machines. However, my PenFed Visa never skipped a beat and worked very well.

I am still shocked, SHOCKED! that most of my cards don't have a pin for CC use and the banks don't seem to care about it.

 

[Sunset]

I had the Barclays Arrival Plus for one year and I used that at a gas station near Avignon, France which was unmanned. It supports offline PIN.

I then replaced it with the First Tech Federal Credit Union MasterCard, which was also offline PIN. It worked for me at Belgian Rail ticket kiosks where my other chipped cards did not. No annual fee so I'm keeping it indefinitely though I use other cards sor the rewards and the convenience. You have to open a bank account with First Tech and in order to pay off the card, you have to first transfer money to the bank account and then transfer it to the credit card account.

It also appears MasterCard is better than Visa about supporting PIN.

It looks like this card has a foreign transaction fee, is that correct ?

 

[braumeister]

Not according to their website; I just looked. Where did you see that?

 

[explanade]

No FTF for the First Tech.

You do have to join some group with a one-time fee in order to be able to join the credit union though.

 

[Sunset]

Not according to their website; I just looked. Where did you see that?

I didn't see that FTF was free, if it is, then I want that card to keep in my back pocket.

I went back to the site, and look by scrolling down, instead of selecting the CC icon and there it was plain as day no FTF..

 

[mpeirce]

I have an 'ordinary' Barclays Arrival card (not the plus) and last year in Italy it never worked for me in train ticket machines. However, my PenFed Visa never skipped a beat and worked very well.

We just got new LL Bean Visa cards (issued from Barclay's) and they now claim to work with PIN based kiosks overseas:

Most of the time you'll sign for your transactions. At self-service terminals like ticket kiosks and vending machines, you'll be prompted to enter your PIN.

This card still has a hefty Foreign Transaction Fee of 3%, it won't be my go to card in Europe. But it's good to know I have a card that will work at a train station kiosk if I need it during off hours.

 

[audreyh1]

We just tried out our new PIN priority MasterCard from First Tech FCU. Used it at Home Depot, and we were prompted for the PIN. Entered it. Approved. No signature involved. Cool!

 

[Fedup]

Las year when I travelled to Europe, I used British Airways VISA card and didn't have any problem. I did call ahead regarding the Pin and they said to put in 9999 or 0000. Something like that. We never had to use it because the credit card worked everywhere.