Would this help GM, Chrysler (& Ford)

[samclem]

As for reliability, that is one of the reasons I can't wait for EVs to hit the market in numbers. Far fewer moving parts so far less maintainance required

I doubt the EVs will be much (any) more reliable. The automakers have pretty much mastered the internal combustion engine. Look at CR's reported problems tally: The engines are generally not a significant source of trouble, the major auto manufacturers have done a good job in reducing maintenance requirements and increasing longevity. Brakes, transmissions, electrical systems, air conditioning, and especially body integrity are some of the more persistent trouble spots for many manufacturers. With EVs, the new technology batteries are going to have teething pains. The electronics to control braking/power use will be new. Hauling around hundreds of pounds of batteries and electric motors (combined they weigh more than an IC engine and fuel) should not be expected to improve brake life or body integrity.

There may be some good reasons to look forward it plug-in EVs, but I don't think reliabilty is likely to be among them for awhile. This isn't like comparing a gasoline weedwhacker to an electric weedwhacker.

 

[FinanceDude]

Well, as someone who is in the business of measuring customer satisfaction, it's certainly true that their perception is their reality. If they expect to be more satisfied with a product's quality, they probably will be.

In the case of Mercedes and Audi owners, that is DEFINTELY the case, even though they pay a ton in dealer service visits........

 

[Texas Proud]

And government mandates such as 5mph impact bumpers, air bags, bumper heights, emission standards, CAFE requirements, etc. One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!

Are you saying that Europe does not have similar requirements? I think they do...

Also, 5 mph bumpers are a joke... I don't think I have had a car that would not have damage with a 5 mph hit...

The car companies are not (or at least were not) interested in our safety... (including foreign makes) that is why there has to be some standards... If you want to slap together a car to get you from here to there... they have that new $2,000 job in China or India... but I would hate to be in any kind of major accident in that car...

 

[Texas Proud]

....
But perhaps I am straying from the real problem here. At the end of the day they are just not making any profit off the cars, which is a requirement to stay in business. Definitely some very bad decisions were made somewhere and some of those were definitely UAW based but likely many others were made as well. I do really believe that the best thing for a free marketplace is to let these car companies make it on their own with no federal assistance. If they can't restructure and solve the problem then it is time for them to go.

Cheers,
Mr Lister

There are two sides to the UAW contract... the UAW did not hold a gun to management's head to force them to sign... they did so with the knowledge of what might happen... but for sr. mgmt, it is EASIER to sign the contract, try and make profit and big bonuses before it costs the company... just kick it down the road to the next CEO...

So, IMO management was not looking long term... like a number of people have been saying...

 

[FinanceDude]

Are you saying that Europe does not have similar requirements? I think they do...

The emission standards in Europe are FAR lower than the USA........

The car companies are not (or at least were not) interested in our safety... (including foreign makes) that is why there has to be some standards... If you want to slap together a car to get you from here to there... they have that new $2,000 job in China or India... but I would hate to be in any kind of major accident in that car...

GM engineers invented seatbelts and anti-lock brakes in the 40's,but did not use the technology until govt mandates and/or public demand made them.........

 

[Midpack]

Lot's of interesting aspects here, but not as many as I had hoped on the original question. Let me frame it differently. Whether you personally agree or not, there are people who think the D3 don't have the small, fuel efficient cars they need to be successful short term (cost effective EV, H2 are long term IMO). Ford is actively re-engineering their current Euro Ford Fiesta for sale in the US, but evidently it's going to take up to 2 years (emissions, safety, etc.). As far as I can tell, it is a far better car than a Ford Focus or anything Ford offers in the US today. If we want to help US automakers NOW, why not let them import these cars NOW for a limited period (2-3 years) for sale here to generate some revenue (and maybe help turn opinions of their quality) NOW and give them a little time to continue the re-engineering in parallel instead of forcing them to sit on the sidelines in this awful economy. I am somewhat of an environmentalist, but I'd support this for a few years to help get them on their feet. It seems GM has some better small cars abroad too, Opel, Holden maybe? Again, whether you personally want a Euro Ford Fiesta or not there is some demand here - what's the downside?

I haven't owned an American made car since 1978, but I have no interest in seeing the D3 and all those jobs disappear no matter whose fault it was. I would like nothing more than to see American build the best cars in the world again, why can't we?

 

[FinanceDude]

Lot's of interesting aspects here, but not as many as I had hoped on the original question. Let me frame it differently. Whether you personally agree or not, there are people who think the D3 don't have the small, fuel efficient cars they need to be successful short term (cost effective EV, H2 are long term IMO). Ford is actively re-engineering their current Euro Ford Fiesta for sale in the US, but evidently it's going to take up to 2 years (emissions, safety, etc.). As far as I can tell, it is a far better car than a Ford Focus or anything Ford offers in the US today. If we want to help US automakers NOW, why not let them import these cars NOW for a limited period (2-3 years) for sale here to generate some revenue (and maybe help turn opinions of their quality) NOW and give them a little time to continue the re-engineering in parallel instead of forcing them to sit on the sidelines in this awful economy. I am somewhat of an environmentalist, but I'd support this for a few years to help get them on their feet. It seems GM has some better small cars abroad too, Opel, Holden maybe? Again, whether you personally want a Euro Ford Fiesta or not there is some demand here - what's the downside?

Because the EPA WON'T let them import without meeting their standards. no matter what. That's what kept all those high mpg diesels from being sold here, we wanted "clean" diesels.......

I haven't owned an American made car since 1978, but I have no interest in seeing the D3 and all those jobs disappear no matter whose fault it was. I would like nothing more than to see American build the best cars in the world again, why can't we?

We can, if the Big 3 decide to do so. The GM Cruz sounds like a winner. The Malibu is already a winner. Pretty much the Cadillac and Buick divisions are holding their own. Chevy and Pontiac are the big problems. I think Saturn's days are numbered........we can do it ONLY if the UAW legacy costs go away or are offloaded somehow........

 

[Midpack]

Because the EPA WON'T let them import without meeting their standards. no matter what. That's what kept all those high mpg diesels from being sold here, we wanted "clean" diesels...

Remains to be seen if our 535 wizards in Congress actually pull it off and I have my doubts, but if they can retroactively tax contractual bonuses at 90% I would think they could also waive ALL standards that prevent D3 automakers from importing their current small cars from Europe, Australia or any other developed country (with some standards) NOW. But I don't claim to know for sure.

I would buy a Euro Ford Fiesta today, and given that Ford is re-engineering to bring the car to the US within 2 years, it would appear Ford is convinced I would not be the only anxious buyer. I am confident they think they can offer it at a competitive price too or they wouldn't be working on it.

 

[lets-retire]

I haven't owned an American made car since 1978, but I have no interest in seeing the D3 and all those jobs disappear no matter whose fault it was. I would like nothing more than to see American build the best cars in the world again, why can't we?

You are part of the reason the D3 are losing money. Americans not buying cars from the D3 is why they are not making money, it doesn't matter your reasons as to why you aren't buying their cars, only that you aren't. You haven't purchased any of their products since 1978, but are now concerned with their survival? That makes no sense. That's like driving by the hopping nightclub every night, but never stopping to go in and have a drink. Then after two or three years, when it closes, you lament that it's closed. You didn't like the business (or their product) enough to stop and spend your money, so you really can't lament the company going out of business. You didn't support it to begin with.

Please don't take this as condemnation of buying from foreign companies, that is your right. You believed the foreign companies made a better product and you supported them, that's fine. It's called the free market, but don't sit there ans say you sorry for their sad state of affairs. If you were truly sorry you wouldn't have been buying foreign for so long.

Financedude bought from essentially the same manufacturer and seems to have condemned the whole US car market. That's fine also. I only wished I had spoken to him before I bought my Pontiac Grand Prix, mine was a piece of crap also. But the rest of the cars he listed were from Chrysler. I give the manufacturers several chances. GM had five and I did not see any improvement, so I don't and will not buy from GM. I've only purchased one Chrysler product and it has been trouble free since I bought it, but that does not mean I will automatically go out and replace the Dodge with another Dodge. My several Fords have all been trouble free, but again that does not give them a pass when it comes time for a replacement, but since I have not had any trouble out of any of those cars a few problems with a car or two will not chase me away. My next car will be from either Ford or Chrysler (if they are still around). The cars I purchased from them have been good and trouble free, so they get my money. I'm not taking anything away form the Japanese manufacturers, but call me old fashioned, I look at the domestically produced items first, then if there is nothing that fits my needs I go to the foreign companies.

 

[Zathras]

You didn't like the business (or their product) enough to stop and spend your money, so you really can't lament the company going out of business. You didn't support it to begin with.

I disagree. I am pulling for GM to do better and I would hate to see them go under due to the loss of jobs and damage to our economy in general.

I don't currently own any GM products, haven't for about a decade. But if they die, they can't learn from their mistakes.
And competition is good for the consumer. Without GM there is much less competition for the others that remain. I would lament that lesser amount of competition.

 

[samclem]

I would buy a Euro Ford Fiesta today. . . .

If Ford brings that model to the US and doesn't rename it, they are dumber than I thought. Plenty of folks here remember the old Fiesta. Why would they want to remind folks of that previous ill-fated Ford "world car?" Just because it happens to start with an "F" so it fits with their theme? Dumb.

For what it is worth, I like the styling of many of the new Fords. The Fusion and Taurus look "solid" without any garish touches. Although the Focus isn't great looking, at least it looks like they got rid of those funky chrome wing things behind the front wheels. Even the Flex, as big as it is, is a good looking vehicle IMO.
The Chryslers and the Nissans are the worst looking car lines. Some nice individual models, but the chunky/gangsta look of the Chryslers is not appealing.

 

[ziggy29]

The Chryslers and the Nissans are the worst looking car lines. Some nice individual models, but the chunky/gangsta look of the Chryslers is not appealing.

+1 on the Chryslers and the mobster look. I can picture the Ant Hill Mob from "Wacky Races" piling into a PT Cruiser:

 

[FinanceDude]

Financedude bought from essentially the same manufacturer and seems to have condemned the whole US car market. That's fine also. I only wished I had spoken to him before I bought my Pontiac Grand Prix, mine was a piece of crap also. But the rest of the cars he listed were from Chrysler. I give the manufacturers several chances. GM had five and I did not see any improvement, so I don't and will not buy from GM. I've only purchased one Chrysler product and it has been trouble free since I bought it, but that does not mean I will automatically go out and replace the Dodge with another Dodge. My several Fords have all been trouble free, but again that does not give them a pass when it comes time for a replacement, but since I have not had any trouble out of any of those cars a few problems with a car or two will not chase me away. My next car will be from either Ford or Chrysler (if they are still around). The cars I purchased from them have been good and trouble free, so they get my money. I'm not taking anything away form the Japanese manufacturers, but call me old fashioned, I look at the domestically produced items first, then if there is nothing that fits my needs I go to the foreign companies.

DW also owned a Grand Am (V-6) that was fairly ok except when the accelerator stuck to the floor, and then the brake pedal did too.......

When I worked in the auto business, I had a Sunbird as a demo. With 500 miles on it, the ABS system failed.......

In deference to GM, the last car DW and I bought was a 2003 Buick Rendevous. We leased it for 3 years because they were almost giving them away. We really didn't have any problems but we are not SUV people, and when Katrina hit and gas hit the roof, we decided having two vechicles that got 19 mpg was not that smart........

I am NOT a Ford person, their cars have always been ugly until quite recetntly........the Milan and Fusion are good looking, maybe that's the Mazda effect.....

 

[Midpack]

You are part of the reason the D3 are losing money. Americans not buying cars from the D3 is why they are not making money, it doesn't matter your reasons as to why you aren't buying their cars, only that you aren't. You haven't purchased any of their products since 1978, but are now concerned with their survival? That makes no sense.

I'm not taking anything away form the Japanese manufacturers, but call me old fashioned, I look at the domestically produced items first, then if there is nothing that fits my needs I go to the foreign companies.

Your first point/paragraph is self-evident. But we all work hard for our money and have a right to spend it in whatever manner provides us with the best quality of life. I don't think I have an obligation to sustain the quality of life of D3 employees/suppliers/dealers (at all levels) at my own expense. They simply have to provide cars that are remotely equal to earn my $, they don't have to be superior.

GM has gone from 50% market share to less than 20%, but it has taken 40 years! You would have thought they might have done something to turn that around in 40 years no? You did not say it, but many people seem to assume Americans who buy foreign cars do so to spite America - IMO that's nonsense, most would prefer to buy American. I haven't bought a new car for several decades without looking to the D3 offerings, each time hoping they would have something just equal in terms of reliability, resale, performance, etc. They are getting closer to be sure, but I had not seen it yet, and I am not going to just give them my money to be patriotic.

What I will concede, I never dreamed they would continue to go downhill for 40 years before they turned things around. Evidently, I was wrong about that, and I do feel bad about it, but I don't regret my buying decisions. I hope they will finally provide a product that is equal to or better than the Japanese, and I can't for the life of me understand why they can't. It looks clear some painful sacrifices that they've known about for a long time are going to have to take place. FWIW...

 

[Texas Proud]

I will have to say that back in the '80s, the creature comforts etc. were better in the domestics than foreign... I thought it was a hoot to see all the accords and camrys with their sun visor all faded and wrinkled in the Texas sun... and Honda did not have power seats back then... I was told by a salesman something like 'they are in the correct place, no need to move them'...

As an example, I can still move my visor in my 95 Chevy and it goes right into the clip without any fuss... most of the car interior is good (the back seat does have some threads that have broken at the top from to much sun, so that looks bad)...

But still, it is not worth the gamble IMO to 'trust' them with my next purchase... I do not want to get burned again...

 

[armor99]

I believe that the time is finally right in the US for a fourth automaker to emerge. Maybe out of all of this chaos a new player might emerge that will "get it right". At least that is the way a "free market" is supposed to work. I would love to see that happen.

 

[FinanceDude]

I believe that the time is finally right in the US for a fourth automaker to emerge. Maybe out of all of this chaos a new player might emerge that will "get it right". At least that is the way a "free market" is supposed to work. I would love to see that happen.

It will never happen. The venture capital guys that own Chrysler prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.......

 

[Midpack]

I believe that the time is finally right in the US for a fourth automaker to emerge. Maybe out of all of this chaos a new player might emerge that will "get it right". At least that is the way a "free market" is supposed to work. I would love to see that happen.

I agree with FD above, and we're going to have 1 to 3 "new" domestic automakers before this is over anyway. There is simply no way they can go on as they have in the past despite what management, UAW, suppliers, dealers, politicians may want to believe...

 

[FinanceDude]

I agree with FD above, and we're going to have 1 to 3 "new" domestic automakers before this is over anyway. There is simply no way they can go on as they have in the past despite what management, UAW, suppliers, dealers, politicians may want to believe...

1)Ford will survive

2)Chrysler is dead, they might be able to sell Jeep to somebody..

3)GM will be a LOT smaller, but has a 50% chance of survival. If the GOVT mandates they have to make a ton of small cars they will lose money on, they are toast also.

Look for the Asian and Korean manufacturers to gain market share........