Fantastic Vaccine Results in US

[Koolau]

One cloud over vaccinations is the poor results in immunocompromised people. A lot of these people are not making antibodies in response to the vaccine. A number of breakthrough cases have occurred in this group. As we know, chronically infected people can have mutating virus that can produce viable variants, as occurred in Britain.

Some people in the long COVID support groups that were negative for antibodies after infection are finding they are still negative after completing the vaccines and waiting several weeks before being tested. They may not be protected from reinfection.

It does appear that some people fight the virus with T cells and never develop antibodies. A lot of unknowns still.

Just the presence of such folks in our society argues - once again - for the REST of us being vaccinated. Think of the life we might save beyond our own. End of sermon, so YMMV.

 

[harllee]

One cloud over vaccinations is the poor results in immunocompromised people. A lot of these people are not making antibodies in response to the vaccine. A number of breakthrough cases have occurred in this group. As we know, chronically infected people can have mutating virus that can produce viable variants, as occurred in Britain.

Some people in the long COVID support groups that were negative for antibodies after infection are finding they are still negative after completing the vaccines and waiting several weeks before being tested. They may not be protected from reinfection.

It does appear that some people fight the virus with T cells and never develop antibodies. A lot of unknowns still.

AR I am interested in finding out about the vaccination effectiveness for people like my husband who has an autoimmune disease (psoriatic arthritis) and has to take Humira. He has been fully vaccinated with Moderna but we are concerned about how effective the vaccine is for him. He talked to his doctor and the doctor said no one knows yet how immune compromised people will be affected by the vaccine. Do you have any information I could look at?

By the way, AR how are you doing on your long haul journey?

 

[Another Reader]

AR I am interested in finding out about the vaccination effectiveness for people like my husband who has an autoimmune disease (psoriatic arthritis) and has to take Humira. He has been fully vaccinated with Moderna but we are concerned about how effective the vaccine is for him. He talked to his doctor and the doctor said no one knows yet how immune compromised people will be affected by the vaccine. Do you have any information I could look at?

By the way, AR how are you doing on your long haul journey?

I'm about the same. There's an article out today about a possible connection to MS. There's an article out every day now, speculating on the causes of Long Covid and how to treat it. Nothing definitive, however.

Your husband should consider getting an antibody test a few weeks after the second shot. Since the vaccine causes you to make antibodies to the spike protein, the antibody test should be one that detects the spike protein, not the nucleocapsid protein. There is a complete list of approved (EUA) tests on the FDA website. If you can get the Kantaro/Mt Sinai test, that's considered the gold standard. It's quantitative as well. If he is negative, he should talk to his doctor.

 

[Another Reader]

AR I am interested in finding out about the vaccination effectiveness for people like my husband who has an autoimmune disease (psoriatic arthritis) and has to take Humira. He has been fully vaccinated with Moderna but we are concerned about how effective the vaccine is for him. He talked to his doctor and the doctor said no one knows yet how immune compromised people will be affected by the vaccine. Do you have any information I could look at?

By the way, AR how are you doing on your long haul journey?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-vaccine-immune-system.html

Apoorva Mandavilli has been on top of Covid since the beginning. This is her take on immunocompromised people and vaccination. She does not mention this, but these same people could be incubators of mutated virus, should they catch it and not clear the virus.

 

[explanade]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-vaccine-immune-system.html

Apoorva Mandavilli has been on top of Covid since the beginning. This is her take on immunocompromised people and vaccination. She does not mention this, but these same people could be incubators of mutated virus, should they catch it and not clear the virus.

They're going to have to isolate immunocompromised people who have long covid infections, to make sure any mutations they create don't spread.

That is how the UK variant got created, immunosuppressed individual had a long infection.

But it's not easy to identify such cases as they're happening. Maybe screen for whether they're taking certain arthritis and cancer drugs, which suppress the immune system.

 

[Freedom56]

Of the 15 homes in our cul-de-sac, only two households have been vaccinated (including ours). My wife who has been giving shots into arms at a hospital, spoke with one of our neighbors and they said that they and others on our street don't want to be vaccinated. Although vaccination eligibility has opened up to 16+, there are more and more appointment slots going unfilled. We have some people in their 70's on our street who are choosing not to be vaccinated.

 

[Another Reader]

They're going to have to isolate immunocompromised people who have long covid infections, to make sure any mutations they create don't spread.

That is how the UK variant got created, immunosuppressed individual had a long infection.

But it's not easy to identify such cases as they're happening. Maybe screen for whether they're taking certain arthritis and cancer drugs, which suppress the immune system.

You are talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of people that are immunocompromised. How are you going to isolate them? And what about all the long haul people in my position, who never had a positive PCR or antibody test? I self isolate as a choice, but most don't.

Time to focus on anti-virals and other treatments...

 

[Koolau]

Of the 15 homes in our cul-de-sac, only two households have been vaccinated (including ours). My wife who has been giving shots into arms at a hospital, spoke with one of our neighbors and they said that they and others on our street don't want to be vaccinated. Although vaccination eligibility has opened up to 16+, there are more and more appointment slots going unfilled. We have some people in their 70's on our street who are choosing not to be vaccinated.

I always expect to find some percentage of the population to have what, at least I, would call an odd take on things. I knew a guy who was absolutely convinced that none of the Apollo landings and subsequent moon-walks occurred. But usually, that's a 10% or 15% thing. I've talked to several who say they won't vaccinate and their reasons border on the (IMHO) bizarre. It's actually a bit frightening that folks actually believe things like "big conspiracy" or "will alter your DNA" (heh, heh, one guy like that probably can't spell DNA.)

Sometimes, I really wonder. I DON'T favor forcing vaccinations - not at all. But we DO need better "sales people" convincing folks it's safe and effective. End of rant.

 

[Freedom56]

I always expect to find some percentage of the population to have what, at least I, would call an odd take on things. I knew a guy who was absolutely convinced that none of the Apollo landings and subsequent moon-walks occurred. But usually, that's a 10% or 15% thing. I've talked to several who say they won't vaccinate and their reasons border on the (IMHO) bizarre. It's actually a bit frightening that folks actually believe things like "big conspiracy" or "will alter your DNA" (heh, heh, one guy like that probably can't spell DNA.)

Sometimes, I really wonder. I DON'T favor forcing vaccinations - not at all. But we DO need better "sales people" convincing folks it's safe and effective. End of rant.

It would help if they stopped showing those jabs into the arm over and over again. I would say that a larger portion of the population believe in conspiracy theories. More like 30-40%. You forgot the nanochip being injected into the body to monitor you over 5G networks conspiracy theory and also that Bill Gates is behind this vaccine roll-out.

 

[harllee]

I keep hearing people say they should stop showing the vaccine jabs over and over on TV. Where are they showing this on TV? I watch TV on occasion and never see anyone getting jabbed.

 

[Koolau]

It would help if they stopped showing those jabs into the arm over and over again. I would say that a larger portion of the population believe in conspiracy theories. More like 30-40%. You forgot the nanochip being injected into the body to monitor you over 5G networks conspiracy theory and also that Bill Gates is behind this vaccine roll-out.

Ooops! Hadn't heard those. You're probably right about 30-40%. Doesn't bode well for us, but I guess maybe the Darwin effect will eventually weed out some of the non-vaccine types. Sad, really, but YMMV.

 

[iloveyoga]

That will make my next week's air travel in over 15 months a bit more relaxing.

We just got back from Florida and were discussing. DH and I agree that flying is a bit less stressful than pre-Covid, at least so far. Things were more orderly and everyone was well behaved. Almost everyone followed the current rules. My opinion.

 

[Nords]

You forgot the nanochip being injected into the body to monitor you over 5G networks conspiracy theory...

I'm quite annoyed that over two weeks after my second Pfizer vaccination, I still have no 5G reception.

 

[harllee]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-vaccine-immune-system.html

Apoorva Mandavilli has been on top of Covid since the beginning. This is her take on immunocompromised people and vaccination. She does not mention this, but these same people could be incubators of mutated virus, should they catch it and not clear the virus.

Thanks for this AR--fortunately my DH is not on any of the specific medications mentioned in the Article. I will suggest to him he be tested for antibodies but it will have to wait--he had knee replacement this week (which had been delayed for a year because of Covid).

 

[explanade]

You are talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of people that are immunocompromised. How are you going to isolate them? And what about all the long haul people in my position, who never had a positive PCR or antibody test? I self isolate as a choice, but most don't.

Time to focus on anti-virals and other treatments...

Well letting them mix with other people is the surest way to spread more variants.


As for antivirals, which antivirals are effective? Does Tamiflu even worth that well?

I don't think the state of antivirals R&D is that advanced.

 

[harllee]

Well letting them mix with other people is the surest way to spread more variants.


As for antivirals, which antivirals are effective? Does Tamiflu even worth that well?

I don't think the state of antivirals R&D is that advanced.

So you are saying immune compromised people should not "mix with other people"? What are we going to do --lock people like my immune compromised husband up Wouldn't the best solution be for everyone possible to get the vaccine to protect those for whom the vaccine does not work?

By the way Tamiflu is an antiviral for influenza, not for Covid.

 

[explanade]

So you are saying immune compromised people should not "mix with other people"? What are we going to do --lock people like my immune compromised husband up Wouldn't the best solution be for everyone possible to get the vaccine to protect those for whom the vaccine does not work?

By the way Tamiflu is an antiviral for influenza, not for Covid.

I'm saying they should have more stringent quarantines.

If this was Ebola, not the coronavirus, do you think they'd be imposing more strict quarantines, doing a lot more to prevent spread of a far more lethal virus?

They would absolutely be locking people in, welding doors shut as they did in Wuhan.

I'm not saying be that Draconian but you have to recognize the greater risk that variants represent. Brazilians and Indians are going through that right now.



Yes I know Tamiflu is for the flu. My point is, mankind hasn't found good antivirals for ANY virus yet.

There would be a huge market for a flu antiviral that worked. Tamiflu or any other flu drug is not a blockbuster drug because it isn't that effective.

I've been trying to read up on the antivirals they're trying on covid. Regeneron has an EUA but that really isn't effective.

Merck is trying a couple of other drugs but one is unlikely to be effective and the other is still very early on.


That is why our primary intervention against viruses are vaccines, not antivirals. They work well in test tubes, these protease inhibitors and other types of antivirals.

Once they get in the body, they either don't work as well or they're not tolerated that well by people.

 

[Freedom56]

I'm quite annoyed that over two weeks after my second Pfizer vaccination, I still have no 5G reception.

My left shoulder was registering 4 bars on our network after my first dose,

 

[6miths]

My point is, mankind hasn't found good antivirals for ANY virus yet.

There would be a huge market for a flu antiviral that worked. Tamiflu or any other flu drug is not a blockbuster drug because it isn't that effective.

Agree that Tamiflu is not very effective - in fact a black-eye for Evidence-Based Medicine and an illustration of why drug companies need to be supervised more closely.

There are however several anti-virals that do work pretty well. Acyclovir type drugs for some of the Herpes family of viruses, those against HIV and drugs that can clear the Hepatitis C virus. The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that most viruses are very simple, get inside our cells (all the better to avoid the immune system) and use our cells' machinery to reproduce. Immunization which produces neutralizing antibodies is generally much more effective (when possible) as it prevents infection as most anti-virals only inhibit viral reproduction as opposed to being viricidal (anti-hepatitis C drugs being an exception).

 

[tmm99]

My left shoulder was registering 4 bars on our network after my first dose,

Imagine how much money you could save!

 

[Another Reader]

The first response to a novel disease that needs treatment is to look at all the existing approved drugs that can be fast tracked and/or used off label. Researchers have been busy testing everything from HIV drugs to TCM compounds, one of which was approved for use in Taiwan.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0753332220312294

We have one former Stanford HIV researcher out here starting a treatment program based on his proprietary testing protocol and various combinations of steroids, ivermectin, and Maraviroc, an HIV drug. We will see how that goes.

It's now fairly widely accepted that this is a persistent virus and long Covid is probably a chronic disease resulting from uncleared virus. Bloomberg interviewed Dr. Nath at NIH, who is doing a study of the neurological consequences of Covid. His opinion is pretty clear...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2021-04-14/impact-of-long-covid-video

One antiviral drug that NIH is studying is the FIP drug, GS-441524. It's a metabolite of Remdesivir and it's much less toxic. The Muller lab at MD Anderson has published a couple of papers on it. Gilead has been reticent, preferring to push RDV. NIH has purchased a quantity for preclinical studies and a clinical trial.

Molnupiravir was touted for awhile but has turned out to be ineffective in advanced cases. One study is till proceeding.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...or-the-Treatment-of-Mild-to-Moderate-COVID-19

It's likely going to take a combination of vaccination and treatment to rid us of Covid permanently. And it's going to be an expensive and lengthy process.

 

[Another Reader]

Agree that Tamiflu is not very effective - in fact a black-eye for Evidence-Based Medicine and an illustration of why drug companies need to be supervised more closely.

There are however several anti-virals that do work pretty well. Acyclovir type drugs for some of the Herpes family of viruses, those against HIV and drugs that can clear the Hepatitis C virus. The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that most viruses are very simple, get inside our cells (all the better to avoid the immune system) and use our cells' machinery to reproduce. Immunization which produces neutralizing antibodies is generally much more effective (when possible) as it prevents infection as most anti-virals only inhibit viral reproduction as opposed to being viricidal (anti-hepatitis C drugs being an exception).

Yep.

A lot of people are living with HIV today, thanks to those viral reproduction inhibitors. I hope it does not come to that with Covid. One positive is the Covid virus does not appear to be able to invade the cell nucleus. It does seem to hang out in immune privileged locations in the body and it seems to have found a way to chew up CD8 cells to reduce immune response. T cell exhaustion was a common finding in Dr. Nath's preliminary results.

 

[Popeye]

I keep hearing people say they should stop showing the vaccine jabs over and over on TV. Where are they showing this on TV? I watch TV on occasion and never see anyone getting jabbed.

I see it on our local news broadcast every single night.

 

[harllee]

I see it on our local news broadcast every single night.

Glad our local news broadcasts don't show the jabs. They show smiling people getting the vaccine but no actual jabs.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

We recently heard from two friends living in different areas of Ontario Province. They are really struggling with limited vaccines available and a super surge of one of the bad variants. Total lockdown. We seem to hear little news about our neighboring countries covid situations.

This 100%!!!!
This is a global pandemic and here in the US the news I see is only focused on the US and US getting back to normal. When we finally do hear about other countries it is still very bad out there. I fear we humans are now giant Petri dishes for Covid muting globally and there may be a strain that develops into something like the superbugs we hear about that can't be stopped.
Yes we all want to get back to some sort of normalcy but I see the global struggle is far from over. I saw one reporter who was in Africa who interviewed a nurse who summed it up for me. We are all in this together and as we have seen already how easily this virus can spread around the globe who knows how quickly it could happen again.
I think we need to continue to urge people to do the right things we know are helping to slow the spread instead of pretending everything is better and its ok to party like its 1999.