J&J vs Moderna/Pfizer

[JoeWras]

This just flashed on my local news site:

Here's a link with some details.
https://dnyuz.com/2021/04/13/u-s-calls-for-pause-on-johnson-johnson-vaccine-after-clotting-cases/

Summary:
- Very rare clots in the brain, like a stroke
- Events centered on younger (less than 50) women
- Associated with low platelet count, making treatment very tricky
- Echoes of the issue with the AZ vaccine

I'm no hematologist, so it seems really weird to me that people get clots, while having very low platelets. In my lay-person's brain, it seems as if the body is attacking their own platelets, with the debris ending up as clots.

 

[street]

Called yesterday to get on the list for the vaccine. I want to receive it but not overly excited about getting it either. I have a few dates I won't be able to take the shot so I will see if sequence of second shot will work out for me.

 

[mf15]

Got the J&J on 4/9, now they pause it.
"They are recommending that people who were given the J&J vaccine who are experiencing severe headache, abdominal pain, leg pain, or shortness of breath within three weeks after receiving the shot contact their health care provider."
Oldmike
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-04-jj-vaccine-clot.html

 

[REWahoo]

According to news reports, there have been six (6) reported cases of these blood clots in women between the age of 18 and 48. They all occurred between 6 and 13 days after getting the J&J vaccine.

6.8 million doses of the vaccine have been administered, so (see sig below) it appears the odds of having this reaction are 0.00009%.

 

[Gumby]

According to news reports, there have been six (6) reported cases of these blood clots in women between the age of 18 and 48. They all occurred between 6 and 13 days after getting the J&J vaccine.

6.8 million doses of the vaccine have been administered, so (see sig below) it appears the odds of having this reaction are 0.00009%.

There you go with the whole perspective thing. Here's some more: The chance that you will be struck by lightning during the course of an 80 year lifetime is .0065%, or 72 times as great. https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds

 

[JoeWras]

According to news reports, there have been six (6) reported cases of these blood clots in women between the age of 18 and 48. They all occurred between 6 and 13 days after getting the J&J vaccine.

6.8 million doses of the vaccine have been administered, so (see sig below) it appears the odds of having this reaction are 0.00009%.

Yes. But it is a reaction that you don't want to have.

 

[mpeirce]

According to news reports, there have been six (6) reported cases of these blood clots in women between the age of 18 and 48. They all occurred between 6 and 13 days after getting the J&J vaccine.

6.8 million doses of the vaccine have been administered, so (see sig below) it appears the odds of having this reaction are 0.00009%.

This will result in a delay for some people getting the vaccine, which means more deaths.

It will also convince some folks that the vaccines are too dangerous to take. Again resulting in more deaths.

Medical bureaucrats overreacting.

 

[Gumby]

... Medical bureaucrats overreacting.

Helped along the way by fear-mongering media and an innumerate population.

 

[Aerides]

I'm sure there are the same number of people who were killed by a car accident in the 5-12 days following their jabs. If not more.

I don't think it will deter (hardly?) anyone who was already happy to be vaccinated. It will only reinforce the anti-side. It will sway those millions who are still on the fence, to wait longer and that's a tragedy. And it will spill over to all 3 US vaccines, not just J&J.

 

[JoeWras]

I'd get the J&J vaccine today if it were offered to me and I didn't already go down the Moderna train.

I took probability theory and damn near died from the integral calculus required to take areas under probability curves. So, I know numbers.

All that said, I do think they need to get to the bottom of this clotting issue, especially to compare it to the "normal" incidence of such events in the same population. I wouldn't feel comfortable if the FDA just threw their hands up and said "More car accidents kill people in the same population, so this doesn't need investigation." They have to investigate it. The people suffering these adverse events will have their lives permanently changed in very significant ways.

But, yeah, that's right, it will throw fuel on the anit-vax fires. But you know what? Stuffing it under the carpet throws fuel on all sorts of fires. We've already had too much data hidden or pooh-poohed early on this pandemic that totally shredded public confidence. We don't need more.

 

[audreyh1]

Here's a link with some details.
https://dnyuz.com/2021/04/13/u-s-calls-for-pause-on-johnson-johnson-vaccine-after-clotting-cases/

Summary:
- Very rare clots in the brain, like a stroke
- Events centered on younger (less than 50) women
- Associated with low platelet count, making treatment very tricky
- Echoes of the issue with the AZ vaccine

I'm no hematologist, so it seems really weird to me that people get clots, while having very low platelets. In my lay-person's brain, it seems as if the body is attacking their own platelets, with the debris ending up as clots.

Agreed about difficulty of clotting with low platelets, but there are no blood vessels inside the brain I’m told. So how could any issue with platelets end up in the brain? There is a blood-brain barrier.

I’ve been trying to figure out if the vaccine causes sudden low platelets, which seems difficult since it should take time for that to happen, or if platelets are a pre-condition which this seems to indicate - but not clear?

And how weird that it’s AZ and JJ both.

 

[Alan]

Women taking the contraceptive pill have a 1 in a 1,000 chance of blood clots.

In the UK they are limiting the AZ vaccine to those over the age of 30 because the current very low levels of the virus mean that the risk balance equation is somewhat similar for under 30's dying of Covid or dying from a blood clot as a vaccine side effect. At January's levels of the virus in the community then for under 30's the risk of dying from Covid is many times higher.

For older age groups the risk balance is hugely in favor of the vaccine.

 

[JoeWras]

I’ve been trying to figure out if the vaccine causes sudden low platelets, which seems difficult since it should take time for that to happen, or if platelets are a pre-condition which this seems to indicate - but not clear?

I think this is the key issue that we need clarity on.

BTW, there are blood vessels inside the brain to provide oxygen. I think the blood-brain barrier you speak of is a filter of sorts that allows the oxygen exchange, but keeps out other substances, including many drugs.

 

[USGrant1962]

Sadly, one person haa died from a blood clot attributed to J&J. In other news, over 4,000 people died from Covid-19 in the last week.

 

[audreyh1]

I think this is the key issue that we need clarity on.

BTW, there are blood vessels inside the brain to provide oxygen. I think the blood-brain barrier you speak of is a filter of sorts that allows the oxygen exchange, but keeps out other substances, including many drugs.

Now that I see the reaction is 6-13 days out maybe that is enough time. Hmmmm - my cousin is a hematologist. I owe him a call anyway.

 

[Alan]

Agreed about difficulty of clotting with low platelets, but there are no blood vessels inside the brain I’m told. So how could any issue with platelets end up in the brain? There is a blood-brain barrier.

I’ve been trying to figure out if the vaccine causes sudden low platelets, which seems difficult since it should take time for that to happen, or if platelets are a pre-condition which this seems to indicate - but not clear?

And how weird that it’s AZ and JJ both.

I believe AZ and JJ use the same virus vector technology.

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/explaining-johnson-johnson-astrazeneca-vaccines

Viral vector vaccines use a modified, harmless version of a different virus as a vector, or carrier, to deliver immunity instructions to cells in the body. The body then follows those instructions to build an immune response to the intended virus (in this case, SARS-CoV-2, which causes COVID-19.)

The virus vector being used in the Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccines is an adenovirus, a common type of virus that typically causes mild cold symptoms when it infects someone.

 

[ivinsfan]

This J and J news is one reason that vaccines takes so long to develop on a regular timeline. Stuff like this pops up and they pause development and spend months deep diving into what's going on. We didn't have the years to find tune everything. Frankly I'm happy that so far this is the only big issue to date with the 3 we are using in the US.


Sadly it will really slow things down because even if they determine it's not out of the range of normal stats, you can't unring the bell and people just won't take the J and J...

 

[Vacation4us]

I cancelled an appointment for the J&J vaccine and will be getting my first Pfizer dose today. Not only is the Pfizer appointment closer to home but I really wanted a vaccine that millions x100 had already received. Guess that was a good move!

 

[ivinsfan]

I cancelled an appointment for the J&J vaccine and will be getting my first Pfizer dose today. Not only is the Pfizer appointment closer to home but I really wanted a vaccine that millions x100 had already received. Guess that was a good move!

Yes it was and the final result here will be a tightening of the entire vaccine supply. Our state was retrofitting several transit buses to drive around and vaccinated the under served community with J and J. They can still do it but it got way more completed with a second dose.

 

[gayl]

It's getting really tight & my sister cannot find J&J anywhere within reason

 

[ivinsfan]

It's getting really tight & my sister cannot find J&J anywhere within reason

She definitely won't find it now.

 

[DayDreaming]

Agreed about difficulty of clotting with low platelets, but there are no blood vessels inside the brain I’m told. So how could any issue with platelets end up in the brain? There is a blood-brain barrier.

I’ve been trying to figure out if the vaccine causes sudden low platelets, which seems difficult since it should take time for that to happen, or if platelets are a pre-condition which this seems to indicate - but not clear?

And how weird that it’s AZ and JJ both.

Here's a good article on it, talking about the AstraZeneca vaccine but it should apply the J&J as well:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00940-0

the finding leaves researchers wrestling with a medical mystery: why would a vaccine trigger such an unusual condition? “Of course, there are hypotheses: maybe it’s something with the vector, maybe it’s an additive in the vaccine, maybe it’s something in the production process … I don’t know,” says Sabine Eichinger, a haematologist at the Medical University of Vienna. “It could be any of these things.”

The clots also appeared in unusual parts of the body, such as the brain and abdomen, rather than in the legs, where most deep-vein blood clots form.

​

 

[disneysteve]

there are no blood vessels inside the brain

This is incorrect. There are tons of blood vessels in the brain.

 

[anethum]

Prior to the current suspended use of the JnJ vaccine in the US, it was announced last week that for this current week, that shipments of the JnJ vaccine would drop by 86%, from 11.0 million doses last week to 1.5 million doses this week. This is related to the contamination issue at the Emergent plant in Baltimore, and the fact that the Emergent plant has not yet received authorization from the FDA to supply vaccines/vaccine materials.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...to-dip-in-week-ahead-as-production-fluctuates

 

[audreyh1]

This is incorrect. There are tons of blood vessels in the brain.

I can’t tell whether that is on the surface of the brain or a cross section or some transparent view.

Well, that last Peter Attia podcast sure confused me!