Plight of older people

[Badger]

Well done! However I fear there are many, (perhaps even the majority), who don't.

About 25 or so years ago, when my late wife & I lived on Canada's west coast, the young guy next door, (hardworking kid, extremely good at 'practical' stuff), asked me if I could assist him with a 'Shakespeare project'.

While we were sitting at the dining room table reviewing his efforts, DW asked if there weren't teachers who could provide assistance.........he kinda snorted and said that, at 03:31 p.m., there wasn't a teacher on the premises.

So you had 1 personal experience. Do you have any experience with teaching in public or private schools (sunday school doesn't count)? Many teachers stay past their work day to assume responsibilities after work hours to sponsor the various and numerous extra curricular activities, parent conferences, clubs, special school events, etc. without an increase in pay and no bonuses at the end of the year. What takes their time to work with some students makes them unavailable for others. Your reference to "the majority" just doesn't hold water. Maybe "some teachers" would be more appropriate.

How often do people in other jobs stay past their work day to work for free? Certainly some but not the majority there either.



I am not saying all teachers are involved with after school activities. Some get burned out, work second jobs to supplement their low salaries, or have children of their own that are getting home from school. But after many decades of teaching and being married to a teacher I think I have enough background and experience to speak with some authority about it.


Maybe you could take some time from your retirement to find out what it is really like to be a teacher. Maybe take a substitute teaching job for a few months to get some first hand experience before making broad assumptions based on presumptions. It just might open your eyes.


I am curious as to why this child was coming to a neighbor for help with his school work. Where are his parents and why aren't they not helping him?



Cheers!

 

[street]

^ agree, but not always work out that way. I have known people that had great jobs and opportunities and didn't take advantage of them. I also see people wanting the highest paying jobs and if they would just get started in a job they like and stay with it, it could of been a long rewarding career. I see it in some young folks now they want it all right away, instead of a steady growth in their job, with pay coming with years of service.

 

[jollystomper]

You were an honors graduate because doing well in school helped your self-esteem. You sound like a very resilient person. You overcame your home situation by doing well in school. You did that for yourself. I did well in school and I met the school counselor to ask about scholarships. Coming from a lower middle class school district, the counselor had virtually no time for me, even though I was the only Merit Scholarship finalist in my school that year. Teachers never advised us on anything for success after high school.

This was an area I got lucky. During my junior year my original high school counselor talked to me about going to small colleges in the midwest. Then I took the PSAT and ended up getting one of the 10 ten scores in the school (this out of a class of over 1000). The school dean in charge of the college advisory department met with me, said he was impressed with the PSAT score and my grades, and asked what my plans were, I told him what my counselor had told me. He looked at me and said "I'll do your college advising from now on. You are good enough to get into an Ivy League college". I did not believe him. When I took the SATs the first time and did very well, he again insisted that I look at Ivy League schools. I told him I thought those schools were for "rich white people with connections". Mind you, this was in the mid-1970s. He said "not anymore - you are just as smart or smarter than the folks going there". After a month he convinced me to apply to several of them, along with other "safe" schools. And the rest is history.

 

[NW-Bound]

I believe it all comes down to intelligence, and that intelligence is hard-wired from birth. Environment and life experiences can influence behavior, but the more intelligent one is, the better they can both visualize and then realize their own potential. Intelligent people can just figure stuff out, including something simple like the value of money and how best to use it in their life. Lesser intelligent people can't seem to do as well overall.

This belief system sounds arrogant and simplistic, I know. But it seems to ring true to me. Intelligence is not just being "smart", but not having any common sense. It allows for thoughtful critical analysis almost as second nature, with a better understanding of implications overall.

The intelligence may be not just the usual IQ, but also EI (Emotional Intelligence) which is defined as follows.

Emotional intelligence (EI), emotional leadership (EL), emotional quotient (EQ) and emotional intelligence quotient (EIQ), is the capability of individuals to recognize their own emotions and those of others, discern between different feelings and label them appropriately, use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior, and manage and/or adjust emotions to adapt to environments or achieve one's goal(s).

For more, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence.

 

[nhcycling]

So you had 1 personal experience. Do you have any experience with teaching in public or private schools (sunday school doesn't count)? Many teachers stay past their work day to assume responsibilities after work hours to sponsor the various and numerous extra curricular activities, parent conferences, clubs, special school events, etc. without an increase in pay and no bonuses at the end of the year. What takes their time to work with some students makes them unavailable for others. Your reference to "the majority" just doesn't hold water. Maybe "some teachers" would be more appropriate.

How often do people in other jobs stay past their work day to work for free? Certainly some but not the majority there either.



I am not saying all teachers are involved with after school activities. Some get burned out, work second jobs to supplement their low salaries, or have children of their own that are getting home from school. But after many decades of teaching and being married to a teacher I think I have enough background and experience to speak with some authority about it.


Maybe you could take some time from your retirement to find out what it is really like to be a teacher. Maybe take a substitute teaching job for a few months to get some first hand experience before making broad assumptions based on presumptions. It just might open your eyes.


I am curious as to why this child was coming to a neighbor for help with his school work. Where are his parents and why aren't they not helping him?



Cheers!

I know many teachers who work hard and made a difference!

 

[PatrickA5]

I believe it all comes down to intelligence, and that intelligence is hard-wired from birth. Environment and life experiences can influence behavior, but the more intelligent one is, the better they can both visualize and then realize their own potential. Intelligent people can just figure stuff out, including something simple like the value of money and how best to use it in their life. Lesser intelligent people can't seem to do as well overall.

This belief system sounds arrogant and simplistic, I know. But it seems to ring true to me. Intelligence is not just being "smart", but not having any common sense. It allows for thoughtful critical analysis almost as second nature, with a better understanding of implications overall.

I'm not sure I agree with this completely. Sure, people born with high intelligence have a better chance at succeeding in academics and possibly be better off financially than those born on the lower end of the intelligence spectrum. But, the vast majority of people are around "average" intelligence. For those people, it comes down to motivation. As I told my kids during their college years, for the most part, getting good grades is about effort - not being born smart. The difference between getting an "A" and a "C" is how much time and effort you put into it.

To a probably lessor extent, the same can be said about work life. Those that put in the extra effort have a better chance of seeing more success. I wasn't highly motivated to move up the corporate ladder (for many reasons), and I ended up where I probably should have. I had friends that would do what it took to move up, and they ended up higher. Not sure they were happier, but that's another thread. I would say most of my peers at school and work were of similar "intelligence" to me.

 

[tmm99]

I don't know if it's a full-fledged total IQ thing or not, but personally, I think someone who can assess situations objectively and can follow logic, will be alright.

 

[Mdlerth]

Goodness had nothing to do with it

I believe it all comes down to intelligence, and that intelligence is hard-wired from birth. Environment and life experiences can influence behavior, but the more intelligent one is, the better they can both visualize and then realize their own potential. Intelligent people can just figure stuff out, including something simple like the value of money and how best to use it in their life. Lesser intelligent people can't seem to do as well overall.

There are other qualities besides intelligence which can catalyze success. Physical stamina is necessary for working long hours. Gregariousness and charisma will improve one's chances in sales. Patience and a thick skin are prerequisites for effectively managing talented but highly-strung subordinates.

Of course, on the shady end of the skill spectrum, we've all seen the ones who fail upward via ruthlessness, deceit, or willingness to engage in extra-curricular career-building.

 

[friar1610]

Sometimes, it can be useful to compare life to a baseball game. The goal is to score the most runs. As Michael Lewis described in Moneyball, the single most important offensive statistic is not number of home runs or batting average or runs batted in, but on base percentage. It doesn't matter how they get there, but more players being on base equates to more runs scored in a game. So teams should focus on getting the players who have a good OBP instead of the big home run sluggers, who usually strike out far more often than they hit a home run. In other words, you win the game if your players get 4 runs through a combination of walks and singles, even though the slugger on the other team hits 3 solo home runs. And the statistics show that your team will win more often.

So it is with life. Success is most often gained through a lifetime of small ball. You work hard, behave well, save assiduously, invest wisely and end up winning the game and having pleasant elderly years. But that is far too difficult, and perhaps more importantly boring, for some people. They would rather swing for the fences on every pitch than put in the long, hard and boring work necessary to succeed. So they chase poor investment strategies and try to find a way to have it all without really working. Every so often, one of them connects and basks in the applause of the fans as they easily round the bases, but far more often, they whiff and trudge back to the dugout.

^ Excellent analogy!

 

[Teacher Terry]

Mountain, did you ever consider moving to where the jobs were after college? When I was providing career counseling to people that lived in rural areas it was extremely frustrating because they wouldn’t consider moving for jobs. We have had to move to 3 different states to work in our field and make decent money.

 

[travelover]

The family environment experienced by each child in a family will often (and perhaps usually) be the same, but this is not always the case. I've seen many families where the children were treated so differently from each other by the parents that their environments had more differences than similarities.

It is not just people.

 

[tmm99]

It is not just people.

Sorry for the little one there, but this photo is too funny! Great shot.

 

[armor99]

It always irritates me when I hear people say "why don't they get a job" or do something to change their situation. Much of success in life comes down to luck and opportunity. I did all the things I was supposed to do, studied hard, applied myself, got a college degree in electronics, but the jobs just weren't there when I graduated. I bounced from one odd job to another till I fell into the only decent job I could find repairing appliances. I barely earned enough to pay our bills, but we got by for many years. Saving for retirement wasn't even on the radar back then, and we would not be in the situation we are in today if my wife hadn't been lucky enough to get a job working for the county (with no college degree). I tried for years to find better employment, but the more time that passed, the more I lost those skills. We didn't have the time or money to pursue more education. Eventually I started my own business that brought in more than I was earning working for others, but still wasn't much more than minimum wage. The thing that allowed us to get ahead was being able and available to build/repair/etc. things ourselves instead of having to earn money to pay others to do for us. Money you're not spending is money you don't need to earn.

Yeah, there are lots of jobs out there, but jobs with good pay are rare. My daughter earned a bachelors degree, works two jobs seven days a week, 6-10 hours a day, and volunteers at the Humane Society in her free time. But despite her education and hard work her jobs only pay about minimum wage. $1700 a month doesn't go far when the rent for a tiny one bedroom apartment costs $1100 a month, not counting food, gas, auto/health insurance, auto licensing, etc. I do worry about where she will end up when she is older, but at least she is not living on the streets.

We had family that helped when we started out, were lucky enough to get a few good opportunities, and made good choices with what little we had. We won't retire rich, but are blessed that we'll be able to retire to a simple but happy life. Things could certainly have turned out a lot worse if we weren't in the right place at the right time earlier in life.

I am an aerospace engineer. I have been gifted or cursed (depending upon how you look at it) with a high level of intelligence. I won the genetics lottery. I fully understand that everyone is not, and cannot be as lucky. In some ways I am very handicapped, as I see the world in ways most others do not, or cannot see.

I live in a world of thoughts and ideas that seem obvious to me, and most people that I know, but do not seem obvious at all to many other people I have met. I guess the analogy I would make is for a grandmaster, chess is like breathing. So sadly, seeing things from very different points of view to my own is very difficult at times.

With all of that being said, I am curious about your thoughts. Why do you believe that most are unable to rise from humble beginnings? Do you believe they are so mentally scarred by a bad upbringing, that they are little more than mental children for the rest of their lives? Unable to ever alter or even see the negative path they might be following? Do choices not matter at all?

You mentioned your daughter is now working two jobs with a college degree. So what degree did she get? In many fields nursing, accounting, engineering, and the list goes on, there is actually a shortage in the US. Did you sit down with your daughter before she selected a major to discuss potential salary ranges? What that not a consideration at all? You mentioned she lives in a one bedroom apt at $1100 a month. Why on earth does she not move to a lower cost of living area. Seriously, my place in AZ is over 1800sq ft and the mortgage is 1000 a month. Why would she continue to fight a financially loosing battle like that?

I promise I am not trying to attack you or any of the decisions you or your daughter have made. But can you see how someone reading what you wrote might be a bit confused? I fully admit, it sounds like I had massive advantages in life that you have not had, but can you not see the validity in the impact decisions make? (Hiding from the flaming arrows surely to come. Just know it was not intended with any anger or malice at all)

 

[Amethyst]

The way to resolve this is by acquiring housemates. Sometimes easier said than endured, I know. I did it for years. It is not always comfortable, but it sure saves dough.
EDIT: I had to move from a one-bedroom to a two-bedroom in order to get a housemate, but it was only about 1.25x as much rent for a two-bedroom apartment, so splitting the rent was considerably cheaper than renting a one-bedroom on my own.

I But despite her education and hard work her jobs only pay about minimum wage. $1700 a month doesn't go far when the rent for a tiny one bedroom apartment costs $1100 a month, not counting food, gas, auto/health insurance, auto licensing, etc..

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

One thing that may contribute to the plight of older people is that in times past older relatives were often "taken in" and looked after until they passed away by other family members. While I am sure that still happens in the USA I wonder if that practice of taking in relatives has diminished to the point that we see more and more older Americans who struggle financially while in the past they would have been cared for by other family members.

I have no statistics to back up my theory but this is my best guess as to why things are the way they are. So my best guess is that living has never been easy, it just that more and more people are having to go it alone as they get older and they really struggle with it.

 

[Walt34]

Reading in the home is also important. My parents weren't educated, but they were readers who produced three kids who love to read. The house was always full of magazines, library books, and drugstore paperbacks. We read stories aloud after dinner.

Same thing happened to me. The house was always full of stuff to read. We had two sets of encyclopedias, and in hindsight that had to be a stretch for my parents to pay for. "Go look it up" was a common response to any question we had. We had a subscription to Reader's Digest (the magazine) and their condensed books. The front hallway to the house had bookcases that my father had built in but it still wasn't enough room. While it is understatement to say that housekeeping was not my mother's strong point she did take time to read to all of us, and there were Sunday-morning fights over who got to read the comics first.

I remember in fifth grade getting engrossed in a book and completely ignoring whatever the teacher was talking about, and looking up to find the room empty. Everyone else had gone to recess and I hadn't even noticed.

 

[JoeWras]

One thing that may contribute to the plight of older people is that in times past older relatives were often "taken in" and looked after until they passed away by other family members. While I am sure that still happens in the USA I wonder if that practice of taking in relatives has diminished to the point that we see more and more older Americans who struggle financially while in the past they would have been cared for by other family members.

It is worse than that.

Many times these elderly people are taking care of their middle age children. The reason for this is varied. In the past, many of these middle age children would have been institutionalized.

I've seen it myself in the work I do. It puts extra stress on the elderly person and helps lead to their unexpected plight.

BTW: my grandmother had to take in her mentally ill son (my uncle) after the institutions dumped him on the street (early 70s trend). Fortunately, it was a large family so multiple siblings supported grandma.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I am an aerospace engineer. I have been gifted or cursed (depending upon how you look at it) with a high level of intelligence. I won the genetics lottery. I fully understand that everyone is not, and cannot be as lucky. In some ways I am very handicapped, as I see the world in ways most others do not, or cannot see.

Unfortunately most are not as smart as you. Most make very poor judgements, (Just turn on the TV and watch the news to see what state the US, for one is in). However this is not a US phenomena, most civilized countries are populate by people with average or below average genetics (Your analogy above), making similar poor life decisions.

I blame the prolific consumer society, that convinces everyone they have to buy X, Y, or Z (With what seems like unlimited Credit) via condescending advertising everywhere they look, otherwise they are simply not keeping up. And when you are below water, NO Problem, just declare bankruptcy and start again (A Terrible Law). The gullible simply cannot help themselves, and most advertising is aimed right at them. It is worse now that most of these genetically disadvantaged folks get their news and information from very unreliable sources and social media, and are not smart enough to see it.

IMHO It is only going to get worse.

 

[Megg1141]

What about those who are simply unintelligent, but not intellectually disabled? Without strong role models showing them the correct way to plan for retirement, most of these people stand very little chance of figuring it out on their own.

I do think that public education needs to do a better job of teaching financial skills, with an emphasis on saving for retirement. I also wouldn't be opposed to the government making 401Ks opt-out programs with a set 15% contribution, rather than an opt-in option for those companies that offer it. I think this would vastly increase the number of people contributing significant amounts to their 401Ks.

Starting my adult life with nothing more then a high school education. I found books at the library to help with my financial education. If one needs information plenty is available. Its much easier to go have a "good time" then to invest in ones self. Today its way more convenient with the internet. To say I had no "roll model" or I didn't know is pretty weak excuse.

 

[mountainsoft]

Mountain, did you ever consider moving to where the jobs were after college? When I was providing career counseling to people that lived in rural areas it was extremely frustrating because they wouldn’t consider moving for jobs. We have had to move to 3 different states to work in our field and make decent money.

We actually moved to Seattle for a job a few years after I got out of college (sometime in the late 80's). The pay was three times what I was earning locally, I thought I had won the lottery. Unfortunately, after a few weeks living there we realized the higher cost of living meant we ended up with less to live on than we had back home with a third of the income. We didn't like living in the city anyway.

Thankfully, my wife was able to get her county job back, so we moved back home. I never would have predicted the non-traditional path we followed, but it worked out well for us.

 

[Megg1141]

I agree with this completely. Take just about any household with more than one child. There are differences in the resulting success and also failures of the kids. Same basic environment, so the differences are IMHO at least partially attributed to intelligence.
Extrapolate out to the kid's senior years, and it helps explain why some are well off financially and some struggle constantly.
Numerous studies have shown that education is the key to escaping poverty. The success of many previous posters on this thread shows that education helped them lift their own boots up and to move on in life.

I came from parents both with limited intelligence who raised four children, 3 boys and 1 girl. We grew up just above poverty level with my sister the only one to put herself through college. She became a nurse while my oldest brother worked his way up with a defense contractor. My youngest brother joined the Air force. I was a flooring contractor most my life. With a hard work ethic and marrying up we all are comfortable at this stage in life. With various levels of intelligence, we all seemed to make good life choices to get us here. Self financial education along with common sense and average intelligence seem to of been enough.

 

[athena53]

The school dean in charge of the college advisory department met with me, said he was impressed with the PSAT score and my grades, and asked what my plans were, I told him what my counselor had told me. He looked at me and said "I'll do your college advising from now on. You are good enough to get into an Ivy League college". I did not believe him. When I took the SATs the first time and did very well, he again insisted that I look at Ivy League schools. I told him I thought those schools were for "rich white people with connections". Mind you, this was in the mid-1970s. He said "not anymore - you are just as smart or smarter than the folks going there". After a month he convinced me to apply to several of them, along with other "safe" schools. And the rest is history.

I'm glad to read stories like this. When my HS did vocational/skills testing and assigned scores to various occupations based on my skills and interests, most of my high scores were in the "Male" occupations (I graduated in 1971 so it was back in the Dark Ages and they actually separated the professions into Male and Female). Having gotten into feminist literature and realizing I wanted a lucrative career in a non-traditional field, I was tickled. The guidance counselor, bless him, was very supportive and once told me he hated to see a woman become a "baby machine"- radical stuff for a Roman Catholic HS counselor!

Closer to jollystomper's story- my DBIL, now in his late 70s, went to HS in Ohio. The teachers noticed that he was extraordinarily intelligent and suggested he apply to Harvard. He was accepted but chose Ohio State instead. He and DSIL built a business and, although I don't know their net worth (not my business), I'm guessing it's in the 10s of millions, at least. He did OK at Ohio State!

When their son, a smart, driven young man who had gone to a very good prep school, was applying to colleges and the guidance counselor heard that he said, "You weren't thinking of future generations when you made that decision, were you?". I suppose he would have had an advantage as a Legacy, but he went to Middlebury, worked a few years and then got an MBA at Georgetown.

 

[imnontrad]

First off, retirees who are doing well are rarely newsworthy.
In some cases it's just bad decisions - incarceration, marrying the wrong person, poor money handling skills, giving money to relatives rather than saving for their future needs.
And in some cases, it's just bad luck, especially major medical problems.

 

[Winemaker]

DW was a Family and Consumer Science ( PC for Home EC.) teacher. When she taught home finance to her rural area students, they were shocked that she didn't didn't have the latest Iphone, big screen TV, or drove an upscale, late model car. She walked the walk of LBYM and taught LYBM. They wanted no part of it, partly because their parents didn't live that way and didn't see the other school teachers live that way. Instant gratification is the general trend.


We have 1 tenant who has rented from us since August 2001. She has had several differnt jobs over the years, several husbands. Her present husband of 8 years, is a dishwasher at a local restaurant, and has no desire to do anything else, until he's replaced by a robot, I guess. They have paid 78% of my purchase price, and it's a 4 unit building! And that is with a discounted rent for being long term customers.

Just different mindsets for different people. In their mid-40's, they will never be able to retire.

 

[Tessie]

+1

IMHO many in the baby boomer population are not as well off as their parents. This is despite having more education and more 2 income earners. I don’t know all of the reasons, but some stand out. Many of our parents had company pensions....that’s over for the most part. Most people weren’t educated enough about investing and many are very uncomfortable with the concept. Our parents actually earned a decent interest rate on their savings. I remember when a 5 % passbook savings account was considered to be a bad place to put your money. Today, we would be thrilled with 5%. The prices of housing, cars, medical and living expenses are soooo much higher than when I was a kid. It also seems like many of us are caring for our aging parents....I don’t remember my parents or grandparents having that responsibility.....perhaps because we’re living longer? Also, when my parents sold a home they always made a tidy sum of money on the sale. That has not been my experience.
I could go on and on and I haven’t even touched on the problems of many people such as lack of education, bad luck, poor choices and poor health.