Plight of older people

[BoodaGazelle]

One thing I am thankful for that I got lucky with: starting out in computer programming when all that mattered was your ability, not your overpriced degree.

And DW and I basically did not make many (any?) bad choices... about careers, buying property, living within our means, saving for retirement... oh, and staying married. I was just thinking the other day that every time you get divorced, you basically cut your net worth in half.... not a great way to plan for your elder years.

 

[isisdave]

There are lots of unavoidable happenings that can cause a long-term or permanent economic disability. Failure to finish education due to death of parent or health reason or accident; any kind of accident or health challenge to any member of the family; unemployment; and so on. I think also that high schools don't teach "how to adult" courses any more, and by this I mean basic economics, as well as how to run a home or business.

I know that health insurance and health care cost way more, compared to income, than they used to, and the trend away from long-term employment toward gig economy makes that worse.

I have always thought that more income immediately drives up housing prices. When women entered the workforce in large numbers in the '70s, I noticed housing prices here in SoCal spurting, so that pretty soon a family REQUIRED two incomes just to live, whereas before the second income was used to enhance the life style and buy that mountain cabin.

When DW and I graduated from college in NY in 1970, our joint salary was about $20k; three years later, we bought a fairly niche house for twice that. Nowadays, a pair of tech graduates would start at about $130k, and while there are places you can buy a house for $260k, they aren't in tech-heavy cities.

Geography matters, too. My son and his spouse recently left SoCal for Indiana, because they realized, in their mid-20s, that they'd never be able to buy a house here. They earn about $60k together, and in California that means living with your parents, but in Indiana it means you can save $20k in two years and buy a house.

 

[Tessie]

There are lots of unavoidable happenings that can cause a long-term or permanent economic disability. Failure to finish education due to death of parent or health reason or accident; any kind of accident or health challenge to any member of the family; unemployment; and so on. I think also that high schools don't teach "how to adult" courses any more, and by this I mean basic economics, as well as how to run a home or business.

I know that health insurance and health care cost way more, compared to income, than they used to, and the trend away from long-term employment toward gig economy makes that worse.

I have always thought that more income immediately drives up housing prices. When women entered the workforce in large numbers in the '70s, I noticed housing prices here in SoCal spurting, so that pretty soon a family REQUIRED two incomes just to live, whereas before the second income was used to enhance the life style and buy that mountain cabin.

When DW and I graduated from college in NY in 1970, our joint salary was about $20k; three years later, we bought a fairly niche house for twice that. Nowadays, a pair of tech graduates would start at about $130k, and while there are places you can buy a house for $260k, they aren't in tech-heavy cities.

Geography matters, too. My son and his spouse recently left SoCal for Indiana, because they realized, in their mid-20s, that they'd never be able to buy a house here. They earn about $60k together, and in California that means living with your parents, but in Indiana it means you can save $20k in two years and buy a house.

Spot on!

 

[klscaz]

She probably would have been okay in her later years, but her kids, and then later her grandkids, started leeching off of her.

Kids/Grandkids can't leech off of you unless you allow them to.

 

[klscaz]

He gets very little from SS as it Is garnished to pay old student loans from the 70s.

Wow! Haven't heard that one before. Imagine the interest accumulation over 40 years. Yikes.

 

[klscaz]

The family environment experienced by each child in a family will often (and perhaps usually) be the same, but this is not always the case. I've seen many families where the children were treated so differently from each other by the parents that their environments had more differences than similarities.

Yes, that is my story. As the oldest child, I paid for everything myself once I became a teenager. My sister did the same. I was the only sibling to graduate from college. My sister owns her own successful business.

My brother (who never held a job for more then 4 months) was gifted a condo from my Mom and she paid him $375 per week to smoke weed and lay on his couch all day. My mother frequently said "he never catches a break." Needless to say, my sister and I took issue with this as we work very hard for what we have.

"Dear" brother died of obesity and untreated high blood pressure at age 46. My mother enabled him to death. Harsh? Yes. But there are many more details that I could share.

 

[armor99]

Unfortunately most are not as smart as you. Most make very poor judgements, (Just turn on the TV and watch the news to see what state the US, for one is in). However this is not a US phenomena, most civilized countries are populate by people with average or below average genetics (Your analogy above), making similar poor life decisions.

I blame the prolific consumer society, that convinces everyone they have to buy X, Y, or Z (With what seems like unlimited Credit) via condescending advertising everywhere they look, otherwise they are simply not keeping up. And when you are below water, NO Problem, just declare bankruptcy and start again (A Terrible Law). The gullible simply cannot help themselves, and most advertising is aimed right at them. It is worse now that most of these genetically disadvantaged folks get their news and information from very unreliable sources and social media, and are not smart enough to see it.

IMHO It is only going to get worse.

You might very well be correct. IMHO.... the biggest issue in our society today, is actually the lack of shame. Sounds wierd, but their used to be a time where people did not engage in all sorts of negative behaviors because, “what would the neighbors think” sort of an attitude.
And honestly.... that is really not too bad is it? You could never write enough laws to cover every possible situation. But if there is a collective sense of, this behavior, thought process, or way of behaving, is deemed good or bad by my society, then it tends to enforce itself.
There was a day when people felt shame when they could not pay a bill. Shame when they were given praise for something they did not accomplish. Not so much any more, and that is the problem. This problem is cultural, and really has nothing to do with economics.... you see it in rich and poor alike...

 

[marion10]

My father had very little self discipline with money. My mother let him make all the financial decisions and he actively discouraged her from working. At age 48, my mother was divorced with no work experience in the last twenty years. The only asset was 50% of the marital home. My father was unemployed- no alimony for her. She was able to get a professional job- but she worked full time until almost 70 and even now at 83, she works seasonally a few hours a week. Her total savings is about $30,000. She does get a pension and fortunately good health insurance. I pay for her to have a twice a month housekeeper ( I live 4 hours away) and another sibling pays her cellphone bill and buys a lot of her clothes. It would have been very easy for her to be poor in her old age.

 

[NW-Bound]

My father had very little self discipline with money. My mother let him make all the financial decisions and he actively discouraged her from working. At age 48, my mother was divorced with no work experience in the last twenty years. The only asset was 50% of the marital home. My father was unemployed- no alimony for her. She was able to get a professional job- but she worked full time until almost 70 and even now at 83, she works seasonally a few hours a week. Her total savings is about $30,000. She does get a pension and fortunately good health insurance. I pay for her to have a twice a month housekeeper ( I live 4 hours away) and another sibling pays her cellphone bill and buys a lot of her clothes. It would have been very easy for her to be poor in her old age.

Yes. Many elderly people I know would be in miserable financial shape if they did not have supporting offsprings.

Could they have done better earlier in life in order to be self-supporting now? Perhaps so, but raising children who now love and care for them was some accomplishment too. Without children, they would have had more savings tucked under their belt.

 

[Alexi]

A friend of mine who I've known for decades is a few years older and always earned a higher salary than me. While he spent his money foolishly, I was a frugal saver. Over the years I have told him specifics how I am able to save money to add to my retirement nest egg and many times he actually laughed at me. When I told him I invest in my company's 401k, he said he had heard bad things about 401ks. While I stayed at the same company which enabled me to retire with good benefits, he didn't stay with one company long enough to get retirement benefits. Long story, short... here we are both retired seniors. I'm not rich, but I am debt free and comfortable. He is still a foolish spender and debt-ridden, so recently he had to declare bankruptcy. Yet he still hasn't learned any financial lessons and continues to live beyond his means. His son pays for his car and other necessities and still must bail him out further by giving him spending money..

 

[athena53]

You might very well be correct. IMHO.... the biggest issue in our society today, is actually the lack of shame. Sounds wierd, but their used to be a time where people did not engage in all sorts of negative behaviors because, “what would the neighbors think” sort of an attitude.
And honestly.... that is really not too bad is it? You could never write enough laws to cover every possible situation. But if there is a collective sense of, this behavior, thought process, or way of behaving, is deemed good or bad by my society, then it tends to enforce itself.
There was a day when people felt shame when they could not pay a bill. Shame when they were given praise for something they did not accomplish. Not so much any more, and that is the problem. This problem is cultural, and really has nothing to do with economics.... you see it in rich and poor alike...

Yes, this has struck me as well. We need to be compassionate but we may have gone overboard. While I'd never return to the days when pregnant single women were ostracized (and the guys were rarely treated that way), it's now "normal" for unmarried women and girls to conceive children whether or not they have the resources to take care of them. It makes it that much harder to get an education and get a good job. My niece did- had a baby at 19 but finished college with MUCH emotional and financial support from DS and DBIL, married an architect and now has a good career as a radiology tech. It helped that she apparently decided that having one baby was a big responsibility and didn't pop out more till after she married. She's a rare exception. For most women, single motherhood is a life sentence of struggling.

And yes, the bankruptcy laws get abused. When I see people declaring BK because of crushing uninsured medical bills- well, there but for the grace of God go I. During the financial meltdown, though, I saw a lot of people rationalizing that defaulting on their underwater mortgage was a "strategic decision"- the mortgage contract says that if they stop paying the bank can take the house, so it's OK, right? One acquaintance I knew in my church, whom I never saw in the same outfit twice (and each had co-ordinating hats) told me she'd declared BK 3 times- and she was a single dentist.

 

[armor99]

Yes, this has struck me as well. We need to be compassionate but we may have gone overboard. While I'd never return to the days when pregnant single women were ostracized (and the guys were rarely treated that way), it's now "normal" for unmarried women and girls to conceive children whether or not they have the resources to take care of them. It makes it that much harder to get an education and get a good job. My niece did- had a baby at 19 but finished college with MUCH emotional and financial support from DS and DBIL, married an architect and now has a good career as a radiology tech. It helped that she apparently decided that having one baby was a big responsibility and didn't pop out more till after she married. She's a rare exception. For most women, single motherhood is a life sentence of struggling.

And yes, the bankruptcy laws get abused. When I see people declaring BK because of crushing uninsured medical bills- well, there but for the grace of God go I. During the financial meltdown, though, I saw a lot of people rationalizing that defaulting on their underwater mortgage was a "strategic decision"- the mortgage contract says that if they stop paying the bank can take the house, so it's OK, right? One acquaintance I knew in my church, whom I never saw in the same outfit twice (and each had co-ordinating hats) told me she'd declared BK 3 times- and she was a single dentist.

Completely agree.... like so many other things in life, it really comes down to your character that determines what will happen to you. I can clearly remember going to my local bank trying to get a house loan. The woman said to me “You have really excellent credit.... we can give you a loan of 500,000”.... so I started laughing... just could not help myself. The woman took this that she was insulting me, and quickly added “I am so sorry.... give me more time... and I am sure we could do $750,000”..... I told them I just needed a small fraction of that to buy my home.
How many people in a similar situation said woohoo I will take it all... thinking like children that they somehow won the lottery or something. I understand that not everyone is financially savvy. But it really does not take a financial genius to understand the concept that you have to pay back what you owe. By the same mode of thinking it does not take too much to realize that one day you too will be old and not be able to generate an income. Better save up some money for that!!!

I guess I just have a dim view of adults that choose to live their lives as mental children, and then choose to yell and scream how unfair the world is, and that people that saved for years now “owe them something”. Make no mistake about such people. They do not really blame the rich for their being poor. They would gladly demonize the blue eyed people if they had brown eyes, or skinny people if they are fat. Don’t believe me? Listen to the demands of any activist group.... they will never say, “give me the opportunity to better myself (work) in some way” it is always a form of give me something...

 

[Gumby]

And yes, the bankruptcy laws get abused. When I see people declaring BK because of crushing uninsured medical bills- well, there but for the grace of God go I. During the financial meltdown, though, I saw a lot of people rationalizing that defaulting on their underwater mortgage was a "strategic decision"- the mortgage contract says that if they stop paying the bank can take the house, so it's OK, right? One acquaintance I knew in my church, whom I never saw in the same outfit twice (and each had co-ordinating hats) told me she'd declared BK 3 times- and she was a single dentist.

Actually, it is "just business" when it comes to mortgage defaults. The bank bargained for the right to take the house if you default, and, depending on the state in which you live, for the right to pursue you as an unsecured creditor for any deficiency remaining after a foreclosure sale. Presumably, if taking the house and pursuing a deficiency claim was inadequate, they would refuse the loan or charge a higher rate of interest. The bank will always act in its own financial interest; you should act in yours.

As for your dentist friend, the law since 2005 has been that you cannot file a second personal Chapter 7 bankruptcy for 8 years if you were discharged from your debts in the first case. (11 U.S.C. 727(a)(8)).

 

[pdxgal]

Scrolling through the posts (admitedly I haven't read all of them), one thing I don't see mentioned is LONGEVITY. Boomers and the prior generation are living longer than before, thanks largely to medical advances. Thus a greater chance that even people with savings can outlive their money.

 

[Maidensong]

Am I my brother's keeper?

Wow. This really is the world's oldest unanswered question, isn't it?

Very thought provoking thread.

When my youngest daughter was about 9, we used to deliver Meals on Wheels. Some of the older folks we visited were miserably alone, estranged from their family and friendless in the world. Others had friends and family around every time we came. We finally decided where we end up at the end of our lives is a product of how much we invested in the lives of others while we could.

And that doesn't just mean money.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Maiden, yes and no to your conclusion. Sometimes when people have a long illness friends drop out no matter how much you have done for them. I have seen this happen to people.

 

[aja8888]

Maiden, yes and no to your conclusion. Sometimes when people have a long illness friends drop out no matter how much you have done for them. I have seen this happen to people.

Family can drop out too!

 

[dtbach]

Many interesting replies. But everything has come down to basically, there isn't much anyone can do about the situation. Between government programs and charity, it still seems many fall between the cracks. Should we do anything for those who had all the opportunities but "blew it"? Or just for those who have bad health or bankruptcy due to health issues?


Sometimes you just have to say, it's a pity, but what the heck else is everyone supposed to do for you?

 

[Amethyst]

Yes. Dementia is even worse - nobody really wants to be around the well partner, because of the presence of the demented one. Many people simply don't know how to handle it.

And women can be particularly cruel to widows, due to the jealous perception that husbands might be "interested."

Maiden, yes and no to your conclusion. Sometimes when people have a long illness friends drop out no matter how much you have done for them. I have seen this happen to people.

 

[Amethyst]

Well. How exactly do we decide which ones are worthy of help, and which ones brought everything on themselves and should be left to their misfortune? An interesting question. When we've solved it, let me know

Many interesting replies. But everything has come down to basically, there isn't much anyone can do about the situation. Between government programs and charity, it still seems many fall between the cracks. Should we do anything for those who had all the opportunities but "blew it"? Or just for those who have bad health or bankruptcy due to health issues?


Sometimes you just have to say, it's a pity, but what the heck else is everyone supposed to do for you?

 

[dtbach]

Well. How exactly do we decide which ones are worthy of help, and which ones brought everything on themselves and should be left to their misfortune? An interesting question. When we've solved it, let me know

Have them show 30 years of IRS returns? If you made over the median for many years maybe have them lean on family members. I remember in my younger days a family down the block who had new cars ever few years, a boat, a horse, etc. My family had none of that. Now I have no idea if they are on hard times 50 years later, but if they are, who are they to come with hands out asking for more?

 

[armor99]

Many interesting replies. But everything has come down to basically, there isn't much anyone can do about the situation. Between government programs and charity, it still seems many fall between the cracks. Should we do anything for those who had all the opportunities but "blew it"? Or just for those who have bad health or bankruptcy due to health issues?


Sometimes you just have to say, it's a pity, but what the heck else is everyone supposed to do for you?

Very well put. It is also the basic argument of capitalism vs communism.

In capitalism you have infinite choices. You can do whatever you like, including financially destroying yourself. The govt will generally not try to stop you from doing things that are financially foolish. You can become wilding successful, or lose it all. The choices are up to you.

In socialism/communism you have few if any choices. No one can really “get ahead” but no one has very much of anything either.

Given the choice.... I choose opportunity over safety. I know I will almost always make better decisions for myself, than other people that do not know me might make “for” me. Many others would choose to be taken care of, rather than face the uncertainty of possible future failure. Again... it all comes down to character...

 

[NW-Bound]

Very well put. It is also the basic argument of capitalism vs communism.

In capitalism you have infinite choices. You can do whatever you like, including financially destroying yourself. The govt will generally not try to stop you from doing things that are financially foolish. You can become wilding successful, or lose it all. The choices are up to you.

In socialism/communism you have few if any choices. No one can really “get ahead” but no one has very much of anything either.

Given the choice.... I choose opportunity over safety. I know I will almost always make better decisions for myself, than other people that do not know me might make “for” me. Many others would choose to be taken care of, rather than face the uncertainty of possible future failure. Again... it all comes down to character...

Socialist countries still have homeless people, hard to believe as it is.

And the US has lots of public and private programs to help the poor. One can always argue that there should be more, but then eventually we will have to ask what level is reasonable, and nobody can answer that.

 

[Teacher Terry]

We were couple friends and when the wife’s cancer came back repeatedly her friends disappeared. We didn’t and we still went on vacation with them when she got dementia. Eventually she went to a home and we drove a hour each way to visit weekly. We have no regrets.

 

[aja8888]

Socialist countries still have homeless people, hard to believe as it is.

And the US has lots of public and private programs to help the poor. One can always argue that there should be more, but then eventually we will have to ask what level is reasonable, and nobody can answer that.

The old answer is that when the free money runs out, the free stuff ends. It's always been like that.