Plight of older people

[Nemo2]

The old answer is that when the free money runs out, the free stuff ends. It's always been like that.

As Maggie T. apparently said..."Other people's money..."

 

[jkern]

Along with freedom comes the freedom to fail. I choose to freedom.

 

[MarieIG]

Have them show 30 years of IRS returns? If you made over the median for many years maybe have them lean on family members. I remember in my younger days a family down the block who had new cars ever few years, a boat, a horse, etc. My family had none of that. Now I have no idea if they are on hard times 50 years later, but if they are, who are they to come with hands out asking for more?

Conversely, if they had high income and paid a lot of money into the system (via a lot of taxes) why should they be entitled to less by the way of benefits via the societal safety nets than someone who paid little or nothing by the way of taxes? Why is it ok to impose of their family members who arguably did nothing wrong, or had no control over their spending?


The difference is, if a family like this blew through all their savings, they don't get to buy into the high end continued care communities that they otherwise could have done. A Medicaid funded nursing home is something, but depending on the particular nursing home, is not necessarily the first choice for a lot of people.

BTW, we were very involved in my parents care. The medical expenses were covered by insurance, but we were fortunate to be able to supplement the daily care provided by the family by paying out of pocket for round-the-clock home health aides - to keep my Dad at home. (At that point, Medicare would have paid for about four hours a day, which was insufficient. Medicaid would have paid for more hours and in home services, but he was not eligible for Medicaid. Not complaining about that, as I said we were fortunate to have the money to pay for the care, just observing that Medicaid provided for more services relative to at-home care.)

 

[Maidensong]

Beggar in Bergen

Socialist countries still have homeless people, hard to believe as it is.

And the US has lots of public and private programs to help the poor. One can always argue that there should be more, but then eventually we will have to ask what level is reasonable, and nobody can answer that.

Surprising, but true. When we traveled the Norway this summer, one of the much touted socialist Scandinavian countries, the first person who greeted us when we stepped off the boat turned out to be a homeless fellow with his hand out. I was shocked. I didn't think their system would allow such things.

 

[ls99]

Surprising, but true. When we traveled the Norway this summer, one of the much touted socialist Scandinavian countries, the first person who greeted us when we stepped off the boat turned out to be a homeless fellow with his hand out. I was shocked. I didn't think their system would allow such things.

Maybe he was just double dipping for a bit of tax free income?
Norway individual tax rate: https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/personal-income-tax-rate
The Personal Income Tax Rate in Norway stands at 38.52 percent. Personal Income Tax Rate in Norway averaged 41.79 percent from 1995 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 47.50 percent in 2000 and a record low of 38.52 percent in 2017.

Edit add: BTW the sales tax is 25%. -From same article linked.

 

[Silver]

Surprising, but true. When we traveled the Norway this summer, one of the much touted socialist Scandinavian countries, the first person who greeted us when we stepped off the boat turned out to be a homeless fellow with his hand out. I was shocked. I didn't think their system would allow such things.

So many chronically homeless people have mental illness and will not (can not) be housed successfully. They cannot help but wander because of their illness, and become aggressive with restrictions.
Similar to the USA, there may be shelters that assist them with meals and housing when needed, but incarceration may be the only option to actually keeping them somewhere.

 

[armor99]

So many chronically homeless people have mental illness and will not (can not) be housed successfully. They cannot help but wander because of their illness, and become aggressive with restrictions.
Similar to the USA, there may be shelters that assist them with meals and housing when needed, but incarceration would be the only option to actually keeping them somewhere.

Exactly correct. Unfortunately, so many view that as being “mean” somehow. The optics of forcing people against their will to go to places where they can be helped, or at least not hurting themselves or others anymore, looks horrible. But is it? It is not compassion to allow people to continue to suffer. It is not mercy to chat with a schizophrenic, and sympathize about the aliens that are talking to them. It is not doing a good work of charity, to give a homeless person money which they will certainly buy drugs with.

Adults understand this, children just do what makes them feel good in the moment. We need more adults in our society...

 

[Gumby]

Exactly correct. Unfortunately, so many view that as being “mean” somehow. The optics of forcing people against their will to go to places where they can be helped, or at least not hurting themselves or others anymore, looks horrible. But is it? It is not compassion to allow people to continue to suffer. It is not mercy to chat with a schizophrenic, and sympathize about the aliens that are talking to them. It is not doing a good work of charity, to give a homeless person money which they will certainly buy drugs with.

Adults understand this, children just do what makes them feel good in the moment. We need more adults in our society...

There are certain dangers down the road you suggest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

[armor99]

There are certain dangers down the road you suggest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

Fair enough to be aware of that sort of thing. But if you are wondering the streets, harassing people, or harming yourself, I do not see how it helps anyone to allow it to continue.

I guess I am optimistic about such things... I am hoping that getting people off the streets... might actually help them in the long run..

To offer a man who is suffering from drug withdrawal, more drugs to temporarily alleviate his pain is not helping that person. It is merely prolonging his suffering. The same is true for any enabling type of behavior. Any help that allows a person to not have to address the issues they might be dealing with in life is not helpful, it is very harmful... and I am fairly certain any mental health care professional would say the same...

 

[Teacher Terry]

Armor, mental health professionals do not agree with you. Mental institutions were horrible places. Unless you are a danger to yourself or others you can’t be held against your will. More services in the community are needed to help people.

 

[ncbill]

Maiden, yes and no to your conclusion. Sometimes when people have a long illness friends drop out no matter how much you have done for them. I have seen this happen to people.

Yep, mom's friends barely visited her in assisted living (locked facility for those with dementia) and not at all when she was in various nursing homes.

I finally got so fed up with the nursing homes here locally that I moved mom to an out-of-state small group home (only about a dozen residents) for those with dementia, where she got much better care than in any previous facility.

At mom's funeral one of her friends mentioned she didn't agree with that decision...when I related that to my spouse she exploded, noting that friend hadn't bothered to visit my mom for more than 5 years prior to her death.

 

[Silver]

So many chronically homeless people have mental illness and will not (can not) be housed successfully. They cannot help but wander because of their illness, and become aggressive with restrictions.
Similar to the USA, there may be shelters that assist them with meals and housing when needed, but incarceration may be the only option to actually keeping them somewhere.

Just to be clear...I am NOT advocating for the incarceration of mentally ill people in the USA. If they need to be on the streets in order to be in peace and comfortable ....so be it. As long as they are not aggressive toward themselves or others, let them be.

Being homeless may be the only coping mechanism they have. My DBIL is the Director of the homeless coalition for the county we both live in so I have heard a lot about the continuous research on homelessness.

He says that research shows that the temporary or situationally homeless persons can be helped. The chronically homeless can only be provided for in the way of meals and shelter from weather when necessary. They cannot be contained, and it does more damage than good to try. They are, for the most part, mentally ill, harmless, and do not wish to be anyone's problem to solve.

 

[armor99]

Being homeless may be the only coping mechanism they have.

I guess I just do not really know what to say about this. I guess I am just not as concerned about what someone who is truly mentally ill wants. By definition, they are not making rational decisions for themselves. I do not think that makes me a bad person.
I would not wish being homeless on my worst enemy... it is a truly horrible existence.

Much earlier in this thread (and the quote above gets to this) I mentioned that to some... they think of homelessness as a lifestyle choice... I guess I just cannot wrap my head around that idea. I would view the willingness to continue to be homeless as “being a danger to yourself” for certain.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Being a danger to yourself is when you are suicidal.

 

[Silver]

I guess I just do not really know what to say about this. I guess I am just not as concerned about what someone who is truly mentally ill wants. By definition, they are not making rational decisions for themselves. I do not think that makes me a bad person.
I would not wish being homeless on my worst enemy... it is a truly horrible existence.

Much earlier in this thread (and the quote above gets to this) I mentioned that to some... they think of homelessness as a lifestyle choice... I guess I just cannot wrap my head around that idea. I would view the willingness to continue to be homeless as “being a danger to yourself” for certain.

It is a "truly horrible existence" to you. With mental illness, homelessness may be the only safe harbor in the storm of life.

I don't claim to understand it. I do try and accept what it is because of the evidence. I have a tremendous compassion for unwanted animals and the mentally ill. They cannot communicate in a way that allows for empathy. They are viewed as a scourge and nuisance. They didn't choose what they are. They just want to not to be mistreated.

 

[imnontrad]

I met one homeless man on my walk one day and spent some time talking to him. He had been incarcerated for a while (I don't remember for how long). For him, he could not stand the thought of being in a room, even if it was a decent apartment of his own.

 

[Koolau]

I believe it is largely the decision we make. I'm not discounting that some people make all the right decisions and sh!t still happens. However, over all those that LBTM and saved are doing well. Others not so much. One is on their fourth bankruptcy and there is no sign there won't be a fifth.

Sorry to be late to the party.


Given that not everything is within our control: I agree that much of the issue of senior poverty is decisions made early in life. I have a good friend who worked at the same Megacorp and made approx the same money as I did (actually, his wife made 2 to 3 times what my wife made in addition.) Currently, friend is 75 and is in debt $500K (less than $200K is standard mortgage debt.) My paid for condo is worth more than friend's debt. Big difference: While I was a horrible investor, I was a good saver and paid off credit cards at end of the month. Friend had every toy, campaigned race cars, had perhaps 100 different cars, maxed out a dozen CCs, etc. I tried to council my friend over the years, but his philosophy was "He who dies with the most toys, wins." Now, most of the toys are gone and he struggles to pay every bill. He still believes he made the right decision(s) though he does whine about having no money for toys. YMMV

 

[Cayman]

Not everything is under people’s control. Have enough bad luck and it takes it’s toll. Plus poor people can’t afford to make any mistakes. People with money can recover.

This. If we're honest about it, we know that what Teacher Terry wrote above is true. Yes, we all know people who blow money that they can't afford to and make poor choices. That doesn 't account for every person who has financial issues. As Terry says, "not everything is under people's control."

 

[Badger]

...Friend had every toy, campaigned race cars, had perhaps 100 different cars, maxed out a dozen CCs, etc. I tried to council my friend over the years, but his philosophy was "He who dies with the most toys, wins." Now, most of the toys are gone and he struggles to pay every bill. He still believes he made the right decision(s) though he does whine about having no money for toys. YMMV

Sound exactly like my best friend from high school for the past 50+ years. All that time and there was never a cross word between us. He was a kind person and would never take advantage of anyone. His income was also about 2x what I was making. Occasionally I would say something to him about preparing for the future but not much. I tried to be a good example but he would tease me once in awhile about my frugal lifestyle. Then the bottom fell out of his life. Lost his job in 2008/9, lost his house, lost his wife due to turning to alcohol and drugs, lost his teeth to radiation from throat cancer treatments years before, got thrown in jail for a short time to dry out, lost his car, etc,

By the time he was 68 he was living on SS of $1k/month in a rented room. His health was shot. He had no means of transportation except an old bicycle. He didn't know how to cook so he bought hamburgers and fries to throw in a blender since he couldn't chew without teeth. But I would still see him waste money on cigarettes. Then about a year ago he became so depressed that he ended it all with a gun to his head in a cemetery where his parents were buried. He had it all and then nothing. Looks like my friend didn't win either.


Cheers!

 

[PoorOldCountryBoy]

I keep reading stories of the plight of older people with taxes/rent/food/transportation/health care, etc. I grew up in a lower middle class family in a lower middle class neighborhood and never saw any of this. None of my parents friends are in this boat and none of my relatives are.


Who are these people? And why are they in such bad situations? Is it bad planning? Bad judgement? Poor life styles?


And why is society responsible for any of this? I guess I'm perplexed.

Charles Dickens had it right in the Christmas Carol. Your two enemies are Ignorance and Want. A small percentage have personal catastrophes/bad luck, many others are in terrible family or neighborhood situations.

What if you lived in a terrible neighborhood where any money you came by was taken by the local tough guys or your greedy live-in no account relatives? You might be smart enough to run away, but then you'd need to be lucky enough to survive and prosper. For that at least one person would need to be supportive.

Bottom line is a section of society needs some additional structure of some sorts to succeed, like it or not. It could be physical safety, mental health, simply stopping abusive relations, drug addiction, etc.

The are always hundreds of "The Grasshopper and the Ant" stories and I could write hundreds of them myself, but at the end of the day **there are people who just need help **. If you were brought up in a Christian family of sorts, refer to the Beatitudes. Pick at least one and have at it.

 

[Chuckanut]

Big difference: While I was a horrible investor, I was a good saver and paid off credit cards at end of the month. Friend had every toy, campaigned race cars, had perhaps 100 different cars, maxed out a dozen CCs, etc. I tried to council my friend over the years, but his philosophy was "He who dies with the most toys, wins." Now, most of the toys are gone and he struggles to pay every bill. He still believes he made the right decision(s) though he does whine about having no money for toys. YMMV

Yes, life is a movie not a snapshot taken today.

 

[NW-Bound]

Sound exactly like my best friend from high school for the past 50+ years. All that time and there was never a cross word between us. He was a kind person and would never take advantage of anyone. His income was also about 2x what I was making. Occasionally I would say something to him about preparing for the future but not much. I tried to be a good example but he would tease me once in awhile about my frugal lifestyle. Then the bottom fell out of his life. Lost his job in 2008/9, lost his house, lost his wife due to turning to alcohol and drugs, lost his teeth to radiation from throat cancer treatments years before, got thrown in jail for a short time to dry out, lost his car, etc,

By the time he was 68 he was living on SS of $1k/month in a rented room. His health was shot. He had no means of transportation except an old bicycle. He didn't know how to cook so he bought hamburgers and fries to throw in a blender since he couldn't chew without teeth. But I would still see him waste money on cigarettes. Then about a year ago he became so depressed that he ended it all with a gun to his head in a cemetery where his parents were buried. He had it all and then nothing. Looks like my friend didn't win either.


Cheers!

Your friend enjoyed his lifestyle while it worked. Who's to say he would be happier living your frugal lifestyle? Had he done like you did, there was still no guarantee that he would not have throat cancer, then on his deathbed regretting that he did not take the YOLO attitude.

I guess what I am trying to say is that people are free to live their life the way they want. In the end, people may not regret it like we think they would.

 

[Which Roger]

Given that not everything is within our control: I agree that much of the issue of senior poverty is decisions made early in life. I have a good friend who worked at the same Megacorp and made approx the same money as I did (actually, his wife made 2 to 3 times what my wife made in addition.)

I'm betting that such people (those who had high-paying megacorp jobs but chose not to save) are a tiny fraction of impoverished seniors. Most impoverished seniors never got to the point where they were earning anywhere near that much money. But most of us had careers where we interacted with more of the former than of the latter.

 

[NW-Bound]

I'm betting that such people (those who had high-paying megacorp jobs but chose not to save) are a tiny fraction of impoverished seniors. Most impoverished seniors never got to the point where they were earning anywhere near that much money. But most of us had careers where we interacted with more of the former than of the latter.

Very true. We tend to forget how the other half lives.

 

[tmm99]

Sorry to be late to the party.
I tried to council my friend over the years, but his philosophy was "He who dies with the most toys, wins."

I've heard "Can't take it (money) with you," "You might die tomorrow," "Live in a moment." And I've been mocked at by people like that for my frugal ways.


At least, your friend had a chance to make some good money and enjoy the fruit of his labour, for a while.