Boosting Immunity

I usually do better in resisting colds or infections, if I ramp up the amount of protein foods that I am eating (such as steak). This also helps me to lose weight. Like many of us I am on lockdown now but I have a freezer full of steak and I am trying to remember to eat steak for dinner instead of canned foods at least half of the time.

Also, I am taking a Centrum multivitamin every day, which may or may not make any difference but I have them, so why not. The same goes for Viactiv calcium supplements. And, I have a couple of bags of frozen blueberries which give me an extra jolt of B vitamins and so on when I snack on them.

I have not been breathing near anybody else, or in the same room as anybody else, for the past ten days or so. Well, except for Frank, and although he went to a grocery store a week ago, he hasn't been with other people aside from that.

Anything that is delivered is washed with warm, soapy water and the outer packaging is thrown away, and then I wash my hands thoroughly too. Same with the mail although I don't wash it. :) Most of it is trash anyway so out it goes.

I feel surprisingly healthy, actually! Except that it is the time of year when everybody here has sinus (allergy?) issues due to 80F weather and pollen like you wouldn't believe. But my sinus issues are mild and only bother me half the time. I am indoors most of the time but have been airing out the house and that probably lets the pollen in.

I think it is fascinating to see what differences have occurred in how much better I feel even when not sick, now that I am in isolation like this.
 
Immunity: Moving the needle

A person's immune response is probably what's making the difference between some people recovering quickly and others succumbing to the disease. It could include non-immune related genetics, probably includes environmental (smoking and ACE2 receptor density), but immune response is probably (do I want to say "the" big factor?)

Your body goes through a set of operations on a molecular level, identifying bad guys and setting up ways to tag them, then deconstruct them. If you're quick at it, you start deconstructing them before they overwhelm the system.

So anything that can make your immune response to this virus faster will probably help. The problem is that we really don't know how far some of these things will "move the needle" on immune responsiveness.

Certainly if one's body is clinically deficient in something, addressing that deficiency is probably warranted, which is probably why supplementing with vitamin D has proven to be effective; many Americans just don't have "high enough" circulating vitamin D concentrations.

Getting nutrients from the best foods and avoiding 'empty calories' is always good advice, but I'm not sure a food choice makes that much difference. Let's say you are young and have the healthiest immune system and you're eating perfectly...you get a 0.1% chance of ARDS. The next guy, also healthiest immune system, but eating pizza and beer. What do this guy's chances of ARDS go to? My strictly uninformed opinion would be maybe 0.5%. So it makes a difference, but not that terribly much. Now take a guy who's old and full of senescent cells, and just has an old immune system, simply due to age, no nutrient deficiencies, and eating healthy food. That guy's chance of ARDS might be 4.0%, again, driven by advanced age of the immune system. Now take that same guy and have him eat a crummy diet. He's still got the old immune system, plus a bad diet, so maybe he goes to 4.4%. I guess all of this is to say that the state of your immune system is largely out of your control.

I do think one should address nutritional deficiencies and "eat healthy food", but be aware that it's very far from a silver bullet. And be aware of the mental bias of "I've got vitamins, so I'm a superman" problem.

DFW_M5 said:
Per Dr Tom Frieden, former CDC Director, vitamin D may "help" one's immunity towards CV19.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/for...f-kTc2BLU6526tPRYCNwOa8vyvK3E1UcuoMx8LpkRLoKQ
Click to expand...

This was mentioned earlier in another thread, and has a link to more detail:

daylatedollarshort said:
I found this on the ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) Foundation web site:

Vitamin D Levels Severely Deficient in ARDS Patients
Vitamin D deficiency has been linked to more than a few diseases, and the latest is acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).
Deficiency was widespread say researchers after looking at more than 100 patients with, or at risk of getting, ARDS. And using mouse models, they also concluded that vitamin D deficiency appears to contribute to the development of ARDS.
They published their findings on April 22 in Thorax."

https://ardsglobal.org/vitamin-d-levels-severely-deficient-ards-patients


ETA:

Vitamin D supplementation to prevent acute respiratory tract infections: systemic review and meta analysis of individual participant data
Conclusions Vitamin D supplementation was safe and it protected against acute respiratory tract infection overall. Patients who were very vitamin D deficient and those not receiving bolus doses experienced the most benefit.
Source: https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583
Click to expand...
 
Yes on eating fruits and vegetables. Taking supplements is not the same thing or even a good substitute for almost everyone.

'May help' is very far from the same thing as saying there is good scientific evidence. And yes there are portions of the population who could benefit from Vitamin D supplementation - mainly related to bone health and more tentatively respiratory infections. For most of the population, go out in the sun for 15 minutes three times a week, drink milk which is already Vitamin D fortified in most places where benefit has been shown.

If one doesn't drink Vitamin D fortified milk or doesn't get sun hitting their skin more than the recommended amount then taking a supplement is reasonable. Vitamin D level is a frequently overdone blood test but if one were deficient then yes. Or if one has very dark skin, covers there skin extensively, lives at high latitudes in winter months (although Vitamin D is fat soluble and takes quite awhile to be depleted) or is breastfed exclusively. The meta-analysis for Vitamin D and respiratory infection is here. The people that benefited tended to be quite Vitamin D deficient. Too much is not good for you. There are times when supplements may be indicated but again not for the general population. IMHO and I am happy to sit down with any expert and review the evidence. Making statements like 'may help' or 'could help' or 'possibly help' sure but the motto is supposed to be 'first do no harm' and medicine is replete (sorry) with stories of disasters based on what seemed like a good idea at the time.

At the end of the day (or better at mid-day) we would all benefit so much more from going out for a brisk walk to get our required Vitamin D as the other benefits are so dramatically positive. But yes certainly if one can just buy a pill...
 
sengsational said:
So anything that can make your immune response to this virus faster will probably help. The problem is that we really don't know how far some of these things will "move the needle" on immune responsiveness.
Click to expand...


What is your opinion of the nutritionfacts highlighted studies I mentioned above? It seems like from those studies can move the needle on immunity markers / decreased hospitalization from influenza rates quite significantly based on BMI, exercise and 9 servings of fruits and vegetables, especially combined.
 
And just to throw another spanner into the works... after reading Sengsational's post.

We are assuming that having an active immune response is what we want. In fact, what we would like is a 'winning' response. The immune response is so nuanced and has so many subtleties, many of which are still only barely understood or not even known, that trying to manipulate it at the pharmacologic level is fraught with danger. This is why good studies are needed. We have messed up so many times in the past and still continue to to this day. In the Spanish flu, as has been pointed out in other threads, it was postulated that the reason so many young people died was because the mounted such strong immune responses that they essentially killed themselves. This should be illustrative of the dangers involved. Generally, when left to its own devices, the body gets it right in its response. The trick will to be to find whether there are any effective manipulations that can be done to help modulate the response but it is irresponsible and dangerous to do this outside well designed studies. And unfortunately at this stage, it looks like there will be no shortage of subjects for the studies. Some have been completed and many others are underway.

In the meantime, hopefully those working on immunization, both passive and active, will ultimately deliver the true magic bullet. Good luck to all. I am heading out to get some sun and exercise. Cheers.
 
6miths said:
If the average person has any significant deficiencies then it is because they are not eating a 'good' diet and one doesn't have to work too hard to eat a diet with appropriate amounts of minerals and vitamins. It gets boring restating what many very good studies have said and that is that supplementation is not beneficial and in some cases harmful. Some of the studies were stopped early for ethical reasons due to harm in the supplement arms. Infection is an absolute contraindication to giving some supplements because infecting organisms benefit from the administration of supplements and at all times the body is trying to tightly control available nutrients in the bloodstream and body. Some cancers also thrive because they have managed to overcome the body's checks on controlling their nutrient uptake due to mutations.

As a wise old friend is fond of saying, 'Do what you want, you'll do it anyway.' Follow the money.
Click to expand...

If your an average person, then yes. But some folks have conditions that preclude them from absorbing or obtaining the nutrients they need. For example, my DW has celiac disease that affect her absorption. Older adults also may not absorb nutrients as well as the average person and may need a B-12 supplement and vitamin D, while others may be on restricted diets due to medical conditions that prevent them for getting a full range of nutrients from foods. This link provides a balanced explanation of both sides of the argument:https://www.healthtestingcenters.com/can-blood-test-detect-vitamin-deficiency/
 
6miths said:
it was postulated that the reason so many young people died was because the mounted such strong immune responses that they essentially killed themselves.
Click to expand...

Having no medical/scientific background, this is basically similar (although not, of course, identical) to what I determined when I came close to expiring from sepsis last year - to me it seemed that my immune system had 'panicked' and therefore decided that, since it could not differentiate between 'friend' & 'foe', it became a case of "Screw it, I'm going to kill them all".
 
daylatedollarshort said:
What is your opinion of the nutritionfacts highlighted studies I mentioned above? It seems like from those studies can move the needle on immunity markers / decreased hospitalization from influenza rates quite significantly based on BMI, exercise and 9 servings of fruits and vegetables, especially combined.
Click to expand...
I wish I knew, but I don't think anybody does. One thing I'll say that cleared my head just a little bit when trying to sift though the data is a better understanding healthy user bias. It's a central question in so many of these correlation studies. Epidemiology is typically pretty bad science, but it's usually the only thing we have for humans. Many times it's what I want to believe, so find myself thinking "It's like bending down to pick up a $1 in front of an oncoming tricycle and not at all like bending down for a penny in front of a freight train...might as well go for it."
 
DFW_M5 said:
If your an average person, then yes. But some folks have conditions that preclude them from absorbing or obtaining the nutrients they need. For example, my DW has celiac disease that affect her absorption. Older adults also may not absorb nutrients as well as the average person and may need a B-12 supplement and vitamin D, while others may be on restricted diets due to medical conditions that prevent them for getting a full range of nutrients from foods. This link provides a balanced explanation of both sides of the argument:https://www.healthtestingcenters.com/can-blood-test-detect-vitamin-deficiency/
Click to expand...
Yes agree that in specific instances help is needed. Not debating that point. But it is hard to believe that we need entire stores and aisles at the drug store full of supplements or that the vast majority of the population needs any blood tests for vitamin or micronutrient levels. This is largely an American thing - one can go around the world and have a hard time finding anything similar. Although perhaps in SE and East Asia with traditional medicines but on an industrial scale.

Just waiting for DW to come for that walk - she is doing an online yoga class!
 
sengsational said:
I wish I knew, but I don't think anybody does. One thing I'll say that cleared my head just a little bit when trying to sift though the data is a better understanding healthy user bias. It's a central question in so many of these correlation studies. Epidemiology is typically pretty bad science, but it's usually the only thing we have for humans. Many times it's what I want to believe, so find myself thinking "It's like bending down to pick up a $1 in front of an oncoming tricycle and not at all like bending down for a penny in front of a freight train...might as well go for it."
Click to expand...

But if you look at the nutrtionfacts page it is not just the correlation studies but researchers actually can give people different foods and then measure immunity markers. The correlation tests of people in the wild and the lab tests pretty much come to the same conclusions on the diet, exercise and produce factors. What other kind of proof do you think would be convincing?
 
Last edited:
Agree with sengsational regarding epidemiology and it's limited abilities. But have to start somewhere.

Who decided what 'immunity markers' were. What is convincing and therefore the go to in medicine for evidence is the randomized controlled trial with hard outcomes. 'Immunity markers' are not hard outcomes. What we want to know is how many people actually died or total days in hospital or days on ventilator and even the latter two need to be qualified. And even how many died needs to be total deaths not just deaths from the disease in question. There have been times when a drug has been looked at and the 'deaths from disease of interest' have been reduced but lo and behold the 'total deaths from all causes' was elevated in the treatment group. Guess which number the drug companies released. This is why research needs to be government funded and supervised. Tamiflu was a great example of the drug companies withholding the evidence that said that it didn't work. It has taken years to pry all of the data free and the process is still ongoing.

At the end of the day, surrogate outcomes generally muddy the waters. I am not concerned with my 'immunity markers', I am concerned whether I get a significant infection or autoimmune disease or cancer or die. We come back again to JERF IMHO.
 
daylatedollarshort said:
But if you look at the nutrtionfacts page it is not just the correlation studies but researchers actually can give people different foods and then measure immunity markers. The correlation tests of people in the wild and the lab tests pretty much come to the same conclusions on the diet, exercise and produce factors. What other kind of proof do you think would be convincing?
Click to expand...
I didn't dive into the studies of the link you posted, I just read it and saw "associated with" and stuff like that (those kinds of studies are typically just correlations and often suffer from healthy user bias). But just now I went back and clicked the first link to a study. It was a small, short study that looked at easily measured markers. It ended with "the biological significance of this immunomodulation remain to be determined", so they don't even know if what they measured makes a difference in the real world.

I'm not saying that eating 'the right foods' isn't helpful. I'm saying we don't have large, double-blind, long-term studies in human populations that would answer various questions once and for all. And mostly what I was trying to say is that a person's immune system, to a large extent, "is what it is", and can be improved, but probably only improved marginally by optimal nutrition. You are free to believe that eating the "right stuff" will take 40 years off your immune system's apparent age. I'm thinking more like 5, but it's a free country.
 
sengsational said:
I didn't dive into the studies of the link you posted, I just read it and saw "associated with" and stuff like that (those kinds of studies are typically just correlations and often suffer from healthy user bias). But just now I went back and clicked the first link to a study. It was a small, short study that looked at easily measured markers. It ended with "the biological significance of this immunomodulation remain to be determined", so they don't even know if what they measured makes a difference in the real world.

I'm not saying that eating 'the right foods' isn't helpful. I'm saying we don't have large, double-blind, long-term studies in human populations that would answer various questions once and for all. And mostly what I was trying to say is that a person's immune system, to a large extent, "is what it is", and can be improved, but probably only improved marginally by optimal nutrition. You are free to believe that eating the "right stuff" will take 40 years off your immune system's apparent age. I'm thinking more like 5, but it's a free country.
Click to expand...


Right now I'm looking for whatever I can do to be one of the milder symptom people and stay out of the hospital because I've seen what happened in Italy and is happening in New York now. There's probably thousands of research studies on subjects like immunity and diet, diet and autoimmune disorders, immune response and exercise and most of them all point in the same general direction.
 
DFW_M5 said:
Is anybody doing anything different to boost their immunity to virus/colds, etc. For example, there are recommendations to take vitamin D and multi-vitamins, which I take daily anyway. I have also heard to take zinc, selenium and to increase vitamin C when feeling ill.
Click to expand...


Take these before you start feeling ill to boost your immune system to combat before things get to be a problem. For food sources in addition to supplements there are meats, shell fish, beans/lentils, and nuts to name a few good ones.


Cheers
 
DFW_M5 said:
Is anybody doing anything different to boost their immunity to virus/colds, etc. For example, there are recommendations to take vitamin D and multi-vitamins, which I take daily anyway. I have also heard to take zinc, selenium and to increase vitamin C when feeling ill.
Click to expand...

I had already been taking AdrenalC which is vitamin C with some minerals including zinc, as well selenium and vitamin D due to autoimmune thyroid issues. Also B12. And taking turmeric as an anti-inflammatory.

So I’m hoping my regime helps me out.
 
This link contains an article written by Will Brink. He is a respected author of many articles on health and fitness. Brink's article is intended not to dispense medical advice, but to provide information to medical professionals and other experts of possible strategies for dealing with CV-19 infections. It also explains the mechanisms of how some people get into serious trouble from Covid. Within the article there is also a link to Life Extension's thoughts on Covid that is worth a read.
https://brinkzone.com/life-saving-s...w3MK585eM8331oFDeYwvufmYhIqab17UQcK7zwMDNuCV0
 
Sleep: Proven Immunity Booster?

I watched a video last night that highlighted a couple of "sleep's effect on immune response" studies:

  • Split a group of people into "keep awake" and "let 'em sleep"
  • Dripped virus into their noses
  • Measured immune response
The "good sleepers" had a much faster immune response. Not a little, a lot! The "disturbed sleepers" caught up later, after they were allowed to sleep.


As an aside, where's the place where the have ZERO respect for your sleep? Hospitals!


https://youtu.be/wlbM6VVkVZM
 
When I was first diagnosed with SLE the rheumatologist warned me to eat apples sparingly and not to eat alfalfa sprouts at all because they had been shown to boost the immune system enough to trigger lupus flares.

And from a recent paper published on COVID 19

It is important to mention that various studies have shown that in animal models with bleomycin-induced lung injury, vitamin B3 (niacin or nicotinamide) is highly effective in preventing lung tissue damage [7]. It might be a wise approach to supply this food supplement to the COVID-19 patients.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...P82ovR-VKCYvmKzG8SvD06OUUCLMzSq9PXUlShQWKVg7U
 
tinlizzy said:
When I was first diagnosed with SLE the rheumatologist warned me to eat apples sparingly and not to eat alfalfa sprouts at all because they had been shown to boost the immune system enough to trigger lupus flares.

And from a recent paper published on COVID 19

It is important to mention that various studies have shown that in animal models with bleomycin-induced lung injury, vitamin B3 (niacin or nicotinamide) is highly effective in preventing lung tissue damage [7]. It might be a wise approach to supply this food supplement to the COVID-19 patients.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...P82ovR-VKCYvmKzG8SvD06OUUCLMzSq9PXUlShQWKVg7U
Click to expand...
That article starts out with my main question, and I'm sure the main question in many minds:
One of the biggest unanswered questions is why some develop severe disease, whilst others do not. Clearly, the conventional wisdom based on overall immunity of the infected patients cannot explain this broad spectrum in disease presentation.
Click to expand...
Part of answer might include "are we all fighting the same thing", as there are many version of the virus, but the other side of the question surrounds the difference in the infected person's cellular machinery. So I wonder if they'll figure out if certain human leukocyte antigen (HLA) / major histocompatibility complex (MHC) will be correlated with diease severity [HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DP, HLA-DQ, HLA-DR]. "Susceptibility to various infectious diseases such as ... influenza is associated with specific HLA haplotypes."

They mention Vitamin B3 (niacin and nicotimamide) for early phase immune response and something called "Hymecromone" for when it's established in the lungs. Neither of these has been mentioned by my go-to guy (Peter Attia MD).

DFW_M5 said:
And melatonin might be helpful:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...pN5vrfir0zS4v_1ThRwn-4qyFFjD3dpBvoBDXXlZX-rJU
Click to expand...
Thanks. I've not had a lot of luck with melatonin, but I got some time-release stuff I tried just once or twice about 2 months ago. I'm going to give it another chance, based on the possible payoff.
 
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