Waited Too Long... How to Convince Spouse We are OK to Retire

[Emerson11]

Maybe money isn't the issue

You've felt the need to provide specificity on this board with regard to your wealth and good fortune. My guess is that your spouse has fears and concerns that are not financial when he/she contemplates a retirement future.

 

[JeKa]

I've been lurking for a while and haven't posted my intro post. I'm 54 and my spouse is 57 (DINKs). In my view, we've waited too long to pull the trigger as we move past the FIRE window. When we had our first formal, detailed analysis they said we could go at any time (that was like 7 years ago -- pre 50 would have been great). However, my spouse still believes that we are not in the position to go and wants to wait two more years+.

We have $8.7M in various accounts forms (not including another 1.4M in primary+secondary equity), plus a pension with cash out option that is worth 50K/yr. Our minimum expenses are 120K now, even factoring in health care, and will drop as a mortgage rolls off and pension medical kicks in. In a HCOL area, with a second home overseas.

So any ideas to convince the spouse to pull the trigger? I think it would be after COVID hopefully dies down. Every year we wait the accumulation rate grows by big chunks, with over 250K of new savings each year. That is somewhat of an attraction to keep going, but for what? I've shared various online tools, with various scenario analyses that show 100% success with conservative assumptions.

You retire and start to enjoy. If you haven't convinced her yet you won't. She needs those 2+ years. Once she sees you enjoying retirement she might change her mind.

 

[JeKa]

You retire and start to enjoy. If you haven't convinced her yet you won't. She needs those 2+ years. Once she sees you enjoying retirement she might change her mind.

Rephase::
If you haven't convinced your spouse you won't. Someone needs 2+ years. Once your spouse see you enjoying retirement, he/she might start to change their mind.

 

[ILikeStarTrek]

It seems that a staggered quitting date is not going to fly. I'm OK to ride this year out, since with the pandemic this limits some activities naturally. Thanks to the others for the additional suggestions, I will check the book and maybe try another FA/consultation. But it is not about money, but rather the emotion. That so much is clear.

OP, you said in an earlier post that every time you bring up the subject, your spouse keeps bringing up financial issues even though they are nonsensical. In this post, you acknowledge that money isn't the real issue. You need to let the spouse know that you are convinced that the money reasons don't address the heart of the his concern. See if you can get your spouse to open up about what is the real concern. I.e., what is driving the spouse's emotion? Is it a love of working, a fear of being bored, something else? Until the two of you can discuss the real issue, you will never make any progress.

A previous poster suggested a marriage counselor. If you can't get past the surface level excuses to get to the real issue very soon, counseling may be necessary.

 

[oiseux]

OP, you said in an earlier post that every time you bring up the subject, your spouse keeps bringing up financial issues even though they are nonsensical. In this post, you acknowledge that money isn't the real issue. You need to let the spouse know that you are convinced that the money reasons don't address the heart of the his concern. See if you can get your spouse to open up about what is the real concern. I.e., what is driving the spouse's emotion? Is it a love of working, a fear of being bored, something else? Until the two of you can discuss the real issue, you will never make any progress.

A previous poster suggested a marriage counselor. If you can't get past the surface level excuses to get to the real issue very soon, counseling may be necessary.

This could very well be the solution.

Here's the kicker, he has a spreadsheet with all the assets and numbers. A regularly updates them. Its a bit of an obsession. We sat down and went through FIRECALC and the Fidelity model and one other. There is still a fear of running out of money, which is what is constantly stated.



Today was a bit rough as my work friend celebrated her last day prior to retirement and we had a virtual sendoff.



This intro has had way more legs than I expected, but everyone has been helpful.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

I was lucky in a way. I married my current (third) wife relatively late at the age of 55 and she was 60 (I am also her third husband). She was working full time as a government contractor with zero work to do (placeholder contract which is a typical scam in DC where the business is contract overhead [profit] regardless of workload). She was a web administrator and maintained the web pages for the FAA which required roughly 5 minutes of work a week. Her entire organization did very little which is very common in the Federal Government these days. Anyway, she had a lot of free time and was required to be at her desk so she began day trading while at work (not using a government computer). She was bored to death at her job and was making more per day than her salary so asked me if she could quit and Day Trade at home. I had no problem with that so this is what she did and still is doing 15 years later in retirement.

I had no intention to retire as I was a very senior research scientist for the government and I loved my job. However, that all came crashing down as I got an incompetent and malevolent boss and my job was no longer fun so I retired without notice. I had 26 years active duty and 10 years as a GS15 scientist so pulled the plug and we moved out of the country to Hungary 2 weeks later. I couldn't announce my plans to retire as that particular boss would have found a way to cheat me out of my tiny ($1,000 a month) civil service retirement as I was a term appointment and subject to his whims (even though technically a GS15 and a colonel are equivalent ranks but uniform officers take precedence). Happily, he was court-martialed later for sexual harassment (as a colonel he demanded sex from 2 junior lieutenants for better assignments which were recorded on tape), ethnic harassment (he verbally abused Chinese scientists with racial slurs also recorded on tape), and misuse (theft) of government funds ($1.6 million). Because his daddy was a senior person in Bush's administration he was permitted to retire one grade lower. A truly loathsome individual who ruined so many lives in his career but typical for senior management in the military now where people are selected for promotion based on lineage and sycophant behavior and not actual demonstrated leadership qualities. The nice thing is his second wife divorced him taking 50% of his pension and his first wife got the first 50% in their divorce so he gets nothing at all in retirement. I suppose it is at least some tiny bit of justice. I feel bad though as this screwed over my staff of roughly 20 scientists and technicians who were left to defend themselves from this evil guy. In revenge against me after I left, he fired everyone and closed down the entire lab as all were contractors. He had appointed a junior Major to ensure that all happened. Now that guy who is a clone of the first colonel is also now a colonel and running things so the saga continues. I certainly don't miss any of it.

Anyway, we retired and I was 56 at the time and we can't possibly be any happier but I have no friends left from my lab which is somewhat sad. Work friends usually turn out to be fair-weather friends anyway so not a huge surprise.

 

[SF94111]

I'm seeing the same thing with DW and I. We are DINKs - 44/43 and at the point with a minimal mortgage/expenses and 5mm+ in NW. We both came from blue collar families thus a bit gunshy to pull the plug and likely to give it at least 4-5 more years, but I hope we're not in our 50s still thinking that we need OMY.

 

[Markola]

The current episode of Rick Ferri’s Bogleheads podcast addresses mental money matters. The guest is a behavioral economist. One of the things they both note from their decades of working with individuals is how people can harbor all kinds of underlying values about money, e.g., it’s evil, it’s the solution to all problems, it always goes away, it’s just a neutral tool, etc., all of which have no relationship to their actual net worth and clear math. Until these assumptions are excavated, they can lead to unfortunate hangups.

https://rickferri.com/podcast/episo...nvesting-guest-sarah-newcomb-host-rick-ferri/

 

[Amethyst]

It's become fairly common online for a poster not to feel the need to reveal gender, sexual orientation, etc. I don't feel gender is terribly relevant to FIRE, unless actual physical differences are somehow coming into play.

On another forum I used to frequent, I preferred not to identify my sex. A small subset of the members - interestingly, ones who identified themselves as female - made a big deal of wanting to know, guessing, demanding why I wouldn't say, etc. You'd think we were in a bathroom and they wanted to be sure I wasn't a man

Most posters here are male. Absent clarity that is usually my assumption. I find it awkward to refer to someone as "the spouse", but perhaps that is just me.

 

[Amethyst]

"There can never be enough" = OMY syndrome

The current episode of Rick Ferri’s Bogleheads podcast addresses mental money matters. The guest is a behavioral economist. One of the things they both note from their decades of working with individuals is how people can harbor all kinds of underlying values about money, e.g., it’s evil, it’s the solution to all problems, it always goes away, it’s just a neutral tool, etc., all of which have no relationship to their actual net worth and clear math. Until these assumptions are excavated, they can lead to unfortunate hangups.

https://rickferri.com/podcast/episo...nvesting-guest-sarah-newcomb-host-rick-ferri/

 

[WhenIsItTime]

I suggest you need to get from “they said” to YOU know you are prepared financially. I used FireCalc to run baseline and sensitivity analysis (higher expenses, lower return) until I was comfortable. I think you’ll find you have a lot of cushion.

 

[Gumby]

"There can never be enough" = OMY syndrome

I have rarely heard anyone complain that they were too rich.

 

[oiseux]

I was lucky in a way. I married my current (third) wife relatively late at the age of 55 and she was 60 (I am also her third husband). She was working full time as a government contractor with zero work to do (placeholder contract which is a typical scam in DC where the business is contract overhead [profit]

snip

Anyway, we retired and I was 56 at the time and we can't possibly be any happier but I have no friends left from my lab which is somewhat sad. Work friends usually turn out to be fair-weather friends anyway so not a huge surprise.

Thank you for sharing your journey and experience. It sounds like a true nightmare to be in a similar situation. I also noticed your destination of Hungary -- that is pretty unusual. Do you have family ties or something else that led you to that choice?

 

[Montecfo]

Most posters here are male. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

By reading posts and also polling on the topic, which validates my view.

 

[oiseux]

The current episode of Rick Ferri’s Bogleheads podcast addresses mental money matters. The guest is a behavioral economist. One of the things they both note from their decades of working with individuals is how people can harbor all kinds of underlying values about money, e.g., it’s evil, it’s the solution to all problems, it always goes away, it’s just a neutral tool, etc., all of which have no relationship to their actual net worth and clear math. Until these assumptions are excavated, they can lead to unfortunate hangups.

https://rickferri.com/podcast/episo...nvesting-guest-sarah-newcomb-host-rick-ferri/

Thanks for this, I'm listening now. Interesting perspective thus far.

 

[Markola]

Around 45:00 they get into “The Worried Wealthy,” which kind of sounded like your spouse. There’s a lot more going on under the hood than “Oh, don’t worry. See, the numbers add up.”

They describe how people fall along an X/Y axis between those with extreme Internal Locus of Control (What, me worry? types) and those with extreme External Locus of Control (If math and history show that a 6% spend rate is fine, well I’m spending half of 1%, and preferably 0%, because black helicopters and asteroids). Those are my examples but the point is, neither extreme leads to well being.

What did you think about her lessons, OP?

 

[RetireeRobert]

OP, you are in a "very" good position financially.

Is there someway you can convince your DW to "test the waters" with some one or two month "sabbaticals" if her employer would allow such?

Or maybe convince her to just schedule some long vacation times, and do some "retirement-y" type activities?

Ease her into a different frame of mind, see how much fun retirement can be, then maybe she would become more than willing to pull the trigger.

Another thought is, if you are ready and she is not, what about you retiring and having some fun while she still works? When she hears and sees all the fun you are having maybe she gets jealous and pulls the trigger.

But financially, especially with no kids, no reason not to retire. Maybe she gets her "perceived" purpose in life from working. if that's the case, can you come up with some activities to replace that sense of purpose for her?

 

[JustKickItForward]

@oiseuxq
Thanks for posting, made an interesting reading.

You two have done a lot trying to justify ER for both of you but the situation has not moved in any meaningful way. I have never been to marriage counseling so cannot speak to that but I am in a somewhat similar, although not exactly, position as you so let me offer this take.

You suffer a stress-induced stroke tomorrow paralyzing the left side of your body. Would this change your outlook on ER? Would you regretted having spent all this effort and TIME trying to decide/convince your husband to ER?

I give you this view because my dear younger sibling passed unexpectedly at a very young age just a short year ago. One instant he was there, the next day he was in a coma which he never woke from.

Time is running, the two of you are just wasting it not moving forward together into the next phase of your lives. Just make a decision and go with it, whether it means you ER full time and he continues working, or you ER but hey into a planning mode mailing out the next steps and he continues working, or you both ER, whatever. The development phase of your ER project is over budget and had gone beyond the implementation date. Time to let it fly. Make adjustments (e.g. vary your burn rate, husband takes a sabbatical, etc.) and deal with the issues live as they come up. Customers are waiting.

 

[mickeyd]

my spouse still believes that we are not in the position to go and wants to wait two more years+.

Negotiate with DW and retire in ONE year.

 

[oiseux]

Negotiate with DW and retire in ONE year.

The negotiation has started; it will be a one year process.

@oiseuxq
Thanks for posting, made an interesting reading.

Time is running, the two of you are just wasting it not moving forward together into the next phase of your lives. Just make a decision and go with it, whether it means you ER full time and he continues working, or you ER but hey into a planning mode mailing out the next steps and he continues working, or you both ER, whatever. The development phase of your ER project is over budget and had gone beyond the implementation date. Time to let it fly. Make adjustments (e.g. vary your burn rate, husband takes a sabbatical, etc.) and deal with the issues live as they come up. Customers are waiting.

Yes, time is running out. I’ve brought up these issues, and example of others, but it doesn’t seem to sink in. I’m going to enlist friends however to aid the campaign.

OP, you are in a "very" good position financially.

Is there someway you can convince your DW to "test the waters" with some one or two month "sabbaticals" if her employer would allow such?


snip

But financially, especially with no kids, no reason not to retire. Maybe she gets her "perceived" purpose in life from working. if that's the case, can you come up with some activities to replace that sense of purpose for her?

No sabbaticals, but a job that will allow remote work.
I’m toying with the idea of another vacation home as an incentive, and a project. But I am afraid that will increase the financial concerns, and the anxiety. The objection of "working allows for more toys" has been raised when we buy no toys already

Around 45:00 they get into “The Worried Wealthy,” which kind of sounded like your spouse.
snip
What did you think about her lessons, OP?

I did hear that part and another whether they basically outlined our situation. But the remainder of the theories and explanations didn’t resonate quite as much. The Internal Locus of Control bears some further examination.

 

[Calico]

OP,

Did your spouse grow up poor, or in otherwise tenuous circumstances? Could there be a deep-seated fear of "never enough" in his outlook?

I agree that given your net worth, there is something more driving his resistance than issues with the actual financial facts.

Until you and he identify and address the real issue(s) I don't think either one of you will be happy.

Best of luck to you.

 

[RetireeRobert]

The negotiation has started; it will be a one year process.

You state that "one year" very definitely. As if the negotiations are concluded?

At any rate, good luck, and let us all know how things are progressing from time to time!

 

[Brat]

@oiseuxq
Thanks for posting, made an interesting reading.

...
You suffer a stress-induced stroke tomorrow paralyzing the left side of your body. Would this change your outlook on ER? Would you regret having spent all this effort and TIME trying to decide/convince your husband to ER?

....

Odd that you should mention that. DIL's mother just had a stroke and is paralyzed on her left side. After several days in ICU, she is now on the med floor. Hard to know if she will ever be able to live independently.

 

[oiseux]

You state that "one year" very definitely. As if the negotiations are concluded?

At any rate, good luck, and let us all know how things are progressing from time to time!

Nope, negotiations will be an ongoing process.

Small but pretty major progress on the negotiations (still to be completed). I have an acknowledged "there is enough" in the accounts but that working through 2021 is best due to CV19. Now the negotiation focus turns to 2022 and the topic of "but I'd like to pad".

OP,

Did your spouse grow up poor, or in otherwise tenuous circumstances? Could there be a deep-seated fear of "never enough" in his outlook?
snip
Best of luck to you.

Not at all, middle to upper middle class. Crazy, right? Thank you for the wishes, as well.

 

[ILikeStarTrek]

Nope, negotiations will be an ongoing process.

Small but pretty major progress on the negotiations (still to be completed). I have an acknowledged "there is enough" in the accounts but that working through 2021 is best due to CV19. Now the negotiation focus turns to 2022 and the topic of "but I'd like to pad".

To be more precise - if it is acknowledged "there is enough" now, then working through 2021 (while it may also be convenient due to Covid-19) will already be one year of padding. So the 2022 topic is really, "we will already have a year of padding, but I'd like to pad a second year".

Why not just go ahead and pad for 5 or 10 years?