I got a new prospective on the antiwork movement

[GenXguy]

And how much of the participation rate is due to stock market fueled early retirements, Covid concern early retirements, Covid long haulers and other factors vs. a drug addled, nobody wants to work any more generation?

The participation rate of workers started dropping long before COVID. Look at the downward trend on the graph. I've seen some of those which exclude older workers, and it was still a downward trend, so you can't blame it all on retirees.

And even among the drug addled, is the root cause sheer laziness and lack of personal responsibility or did the opoid manufacturers and distributors have a role?

Too many people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves and point the finger at someone else. Too many excuses for younger people not to work. I hope the earlier poster is correct and that the work ethic of the past will return.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

I have heard historians who claim that the plague would wipe out all the generations of some noble land owning family. The surviving peasants would simply take over the land and farm it for themselves instead of the former nobility that owned it. In return for food the surviving local officials created deeds that gave them ownership of the property. I guess it was there version of squatters rights. You've farmed the land for NN years, nobody else has come around with a valid claim to it, so it's yours.

That’s fascinating. Can’t blame them though. People will do what they need to do to survive and survival was a lot more precarious then.

 

[Time2]

I saw a meme the other day, probably on antiwork, about imagine a time in the U.S. when one spouse could stay home and the other, without a college education, could support a family and buy a house. That was most of my neighborhood growing up, probably a big part of my state. It seems like a fantasy now, even outside the very HCOL areas.

Do any of you live where this is still possible?

At least part of that extra spouse working, is having more things, internet fees, modem, router, computer, printer, cable TV, an extra TV or two, cellphones, gym memberships, bigger houses, with higher property tax, branded shoes, kids costly sports, high cost of medical, and the overall category, just plain more unneeded stuff to buy, that we buy!
Feel free to add to the list.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Too many people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves and point the finger at someone else. Too many excuses for younger people not to work. I hope the earlier poster is correct and that the work ethic of the past will return.

People have been saying "nobody wants to work anymore" for over 100 years. A person on Twitter compiled newspaper clippings with just that headline going back to the 1800s: https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexalisitza/viral-nobody-wants-to-work-newspaper-twitter-thread

 

[daylatedollarshort]

At least part of that extra spouse working, is having more things, internet fees, modem, router, computer, printer, cable TV, an extra TV or two, cellphones, gym memberships, bigger houses, with higher property tax, branded shoes, kids costly sports, high cost of medical, and the overall category, just plain more unneeded stuff to buy, that we buy!
Feel free to add to the list.

That is true, and may well be part of it. But multiple factors can be true at once. Consumerism can be more of an issue, and housing can still be less affordable - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/23/key-facts-about-housing-affordability-in-the-u-s/ - "A variety of factors have set the stage for the financial challenges American homeowners and renters have been facing in the housing market, including incomes that haven’t kept pace with housing cost increases and a housing construction slowdown." Private equity has also started buying up single family homes and multifamily rentals, which has an impact on supply left for individual households.

 

[youbet]

Of course, this is true. But benefits are usually about 1/3 of salary, overhead (facilities, tools, etc.) about 20%, profit maybe 25% at most so burdened billed rate would be less than double the workers hourly rate. Still, I have never heard of a welder making only $20/hr if (s)he has certs. As an engineer I was usually billed at about twice my hourly wage. Ten times is way out of line.

Assuming the customer is an informed consumer, the fact that the customer is willing to pay $200/hr to the company for the welder's services justifies the rate.

The $20 hourly wage quoted in the video kills the credibility of the whole thing from start to beginning. I believe the $200 but call "BS" on the $20 unless there are some special circumstances.

 

[youbet]

I saw a meme the other day, probably on antiwork, about imagine a time in the U.S. when one spouse could stay home and the other, without a college education, could support a family and buy a house. That was most of my neighborhood growing up, probably a big part of my state. It seems like a fantasy now, even outside the very HCOL areas.

Do any of you live where this is still possible?

It's still very possible in the rural Midwest in areas where MegaCorps have built large, capital intensive manufacturing facilities. I have toured the Toyota plant in southern Indiana three times. Very impressive! High tech, lotsa automation and manufacturing process development going on. There are many skilled jobs as electricians, millwrights, machinists, non-degreed automation/robotic programers, etc. Pay is adequate for single-earner households to survive OK, especially if the stay at home spouse has a sharp pencil and keeps expenses down.

Tradesmen, business owners, construction equipment operators and truck drivers also come to mind.

 

[razztazz]

At least part of that extra spouse working, is having more things, internet fees, modem, router, computer, printer, cable TV, an extra TV or two, cellphones, gym memberships, bigger houses, with higher property tax, branded shoes, kids costly sports, high cost of medical, and the overall category, just plain more unneeded stuff to buy, that we buy!
Feel free to add to the list.

No. That's only because of the rationing system. All those things should be available to one un-college-educated worker or we can't say we've made any progress. That's what it's supposed to be all about. Or at least they bring it up when it suits them. It's just robbing Peter's Paypal to pay Paul.

 

[Time2]

The median income of a US household is $79,900. That means half the households live on less and 1/2 live on more. So, a family could have a single wage earner earning $79,900 live on one income and be in the middle income. There are many families living on $60,000, so again a family with a single earner at $60k would be fine, but many think it worth the other spouse earning to have more.
For us, it took both of us working to average a 33 year inflation adjusted $70k. ($18k in 1981 equals about $55k in 2018.)

 

[GenXguy]

People have been saying "nobody wants to work anymore" for over 100 years. A person on Twitter compiled newspaper clippings with just that headline going back to the 1800s: https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexalisitza/viral-nobody-wants-to-work-newspaper-twitter-thread

No doubt there have always been slackers among the younger workers that didn't want to work. Now you have a big social movement with anti-work.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

No doubt there have always been slackers among the younger workers that didn't want to work. Now you have a big social movement with anti-work.

Antiwork was a poor choice of names for the subreddit. Some have tried to gain traction for a workreform subreddit instead, but the antiwork already has the big member base. If you read the posts on antiwork regularly, most have legitimate complaints. It is not so much not wanting to work at all, but people not wanting their approved vacations yanked after they made plans and bought plane tickets, to be docked pay illegally, their tips being kept by owners, to be expected to be at work 30 minutes before being allowed to clock in, getting fired without pay for giving 2 weeks notice, and being on call 24 X 7 without any extra compensation, usually for minimum wage jobs.

If you do a Google search on nobody wants to work any more, most articles that come up have data explaining that nobody wants to work for less than the living wage in harsh working conditions. And right now, in the our current post plague days with low unemployment, the serfs are rising up and realizing it is pretty easy to get another job for higher pay and better working conditions.

The long American tradition of complaining about lazy workers - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com) - To make a living wage, a single parent with two kids earning the federal minimum wage of $7.25 would need to work 235 hours per week — almost six full-time minimum-wage jobs. Although wage gains remained stronglast month, raises aren’t keeping pace with inflation."

Home prices are now rising much faster than incomes, studies show (cnbc.com)

 

[Koolau]

No doubt there have always been slackers among the younger workers that didn't want to work. Now you have a big social movement with anti-work.

I think it has become more possible to avoid traditional w*rk because there are governmental, NGO and "home" resources available. We told our kids when they left that we were changing the locks but I'm sure we would have allowed a kid to sleep on a couch for a couple of weeks if need be. Some kids have found mom and dad's basement (or old room) quite a nice alternative to a $1200/mo apartment (or higher, depending upon the location.) Back in the day, "mating" rituals would have often excluded such living arrangements. I don't think that's true these days for the most part.

I don't know the various governmental benefits but it's been a long time since I heard of a benefit being rescinded or reduced though I'm not an expert.

DW works for a church food pantry. It is one block from another NGO food bank. DW has "clients" come in carrying bags of food from the other NGO and taking the allowed amount of food from the church's pantry. They take people's word for how many people they are feeding. IIRC, they do have an ID system (virtually any ID acceptable - recorded only by name simply to limit folks coming back too early.)

Now, is that the way I would have wanted to survive as a young person? No. Could I have survived in such a manner. I believe I could have survived though it never would have occurred to me NOT to be looking for a J*b. All of this is a YMMV situation.

 

[GenXguy]

To make a living wage, a single parent with two kids earning the federal minimum wage of $7.25 would need to work 235 hours per week — almost six full-time minimum-wage jobs.

It's non-sense. First, hardly anyone makes the federal minimum wage. In my state, I don't even know anyone making the state minimum wage, which is considerably higher. The references you gave are reporting a living wage as $100,498.60 in 2021, so even higher now. Crazy. I don't subscribe to the term "living wage". The market should determine the wage.

Hopefully, the economy slows down so that there won't be as much demand for labor and keep wages in check. I would like to see lower wages to help bring inflation down.

 

[RVplusDog]

(snip) Private equity has also started buying up single family homes and multifamily rentals, which has an impact on supply left for individual households.

This is a large and growing problem in the western NC mountains, and I imagine in other desirable vacation/retirement areas. There is no affordable housing for workers within an hour or more of many areas. Some of this is gentrification, some is conversion of housing to vacation /short term rentals. Many area businesses have had to reduce open hours in order to maintain necessary staffing levels.

I don’t know how the situation can be resolved.

 

[JoeWras]

Not all jobs require a living wage. Teens working after school shouldn't expect a living wage.

This is, and always has been, and important part of the labor pool. For example, the "paper boy." Paper boys never expected a living wage. Today, news carriers, driving their gas guzzlers, do expect it.

On my first job at age 14, I compared wages with my dad. He made 12x of what I was making. UNFAIR! /s

 

[Koolau]

Not all jobs require a living wage. Teens working after school shouldn't expect a living wage.

This is, and always has been, and important part of the labor pool. For example, the "paper boy." Paper boys never expected a living wage. Today, news carriers, driving their gas guzzlers, do expect it.

On my first job at age 14, I compared wages with my dad. He made 12x of what I was making. UNFAIR! /s

I had to w*rk for my dad for many years in the family business. It was one happy day when he actually started PAYING me - $0.25/hour. I was only 9 but I could keep up with any adult doing that piddly j*b. YMMV

 

[aaronc879]

Not all jobs require a living wage. Teens working after school shouldn't expect a living wage.

This is, and always has been, and important part of the labor pool. For example, the "paper boy." Paper boys never expected a living wage. Today, news carriers, driving their gas guzzlers, do expect it.

On my first job at age 14, I compared wages with my dad. He made 12x of what I was making. UNFAIR! /s

I agree that is definitely unfair. Unless your Dad was a high level surgeon or CEO of a major company then he should not be making 12X what anyone else is making even a minimum wage teenager.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

This is a large and growing problem in the western NC mountains, and I imagine in other desirable vacation/retirement areas. There is no affordable housing for workers within an hour or more of many areas. Some of this is gentrification, some is conversion of housing to vacation /short term rentals. Many area businesses have had to reduce open hours in order to maintain necessary staffing levels.

I don’t know how the situation can be resolved.

It seems like this is a big factor in rent increases in some areas, and adding to inflation numbers. But can this kind of inflation be solved by the Fed raising interest rates, which is their main course of action? That seems unlikely, so I don't know what the solution is either. Private equity firms are even buying up trailer parks and jacking up the rents.

First-Time Home Buyers Are Getting Squeezed Out by Investors and Corporations - The New York Times (nytimes.com) - Why the Road Is Getting Even Rockier for First-Time Home Buyers. Investors and corporations are buying up houses and turning them into rental properties. In Charlotte, N.C., that is adding to the hurdles facing would-be buyers navigating a brutal market.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

At least part of that extra spouse working, is having more things, internet fees, modem, router, computer, printer, cable TV, an extra TV or two, cellphones, gym memberships, bigger houses, with higher property tax, branded shoes, kids costly sports, high cost of medical, and the overall category, just plain more unneeded stuff to buy, that we buy!
Feel free to add to the list.

Just noticed you added healthcare to your consumer item list. That really isn't an optional expense. When I was growing up both my parents had union jobs with health insurance. What one parent's heath insurance didn't cover they other usually did, so health care wasn't a big budget item at all. Now even with a subsidized ACA plan our family deductibles have been around $13K a year. That is a huge expense for people with middle class incomes.

 

[GenXguy]

Just noticed you added healthcare to your consumer item list. That really isn't an optional expense. When I was growing up both my parents had union jobs with health insurance. What one parent's heath insurance didn't cover they other usually did, so health care wasn't a big budget item at all. Now even with a subsidized ACA plan our family deductibles have been around $13K a year. That is a huge expense for people with middle class incomes.

Many middle class families have health insurance through their employers. For example, with my work insurance, my deductible is $250 for in network.

 

[Koolau]

I agree that is definitely unfair. Unless your Dad was a high level surgeon or CEO of a major company then he should not be making 12X what anyone else is making even a minimum wage teenager.

I respectfully disagree. Labor is worth what someone will pay for it - just like "stuff." Suggesting otherwise denies supply and demand. Attempting to interfere with that is just like changing the course of a river. Yes, you can probably do it if you try hard enough, but eventually, the river will find a way around most any restriction - with potentially devastating results. Examples are rife throughout history (both with changing rivers and setting prices.)

Not looking for a food fight so willing to agree to disagree.

 

[GenXguy]

I respectfully disagree. Labor is worth what someone will pay for it - just like "stuff." Suggesting otherwise denies supply and demand. Attempting to interfere with that is just like changing the course of a river. Yes, you can probably do it if you try hard enough, but eventually, the river will find a way around most any restriction - with potentially devastating results. Examples are rife throughout history (both with changing rivers and setting prices.)

Not looking for a food fight so willing to agree to disagree.

+1

 

[Chuckanut]

This is a large and growing problem in the western NC mountains, and I imagine in other desirable vacation/retirement areas. There is no affordable housing for workers within an hour or more of many areas. Some of this is gentrification, some is conversion of housing to vacation /short term rentals. Many area businesses have had to reduce open hours in order to maintain necessary staffing levels.

I don’t know how the situation can be resolved.

I would think the market place will resolve it. Fewer workers means the vacationers, retired folks and others won't have the goods and services they need and/or want. That will drive up costs to the market clearing amount. At some point, people like me will say "I can get my daily lattè for $3 in Plainsville versus $5 in Ritzville. That leaves me with about $720 a year for other things like enjoying more bowling and beer. OTOH, all I can afford in Ritzville is to sit on my front porch and eat yesterday's leftover green bean casserole. Plainsville suddenly doesn't look so plain anymore."

FWIW, the baristas in my area are now starting at 18-20 dollars an hour, so that coffee habit can easily cost $6+ a day with tax and tip. Somebody has to pay these higher wage rates.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

I respectfully disagree. Labor is worth what someone will pay for it - just like "stuff." Suggesting otherwise denies supply and demand. Attempting to interfere with that is just like changing the course of a river. Yes, you can probably do it if you try hard enough, but eventually, the river will find a way around most any restriction - with potentially devastating results. Examples are rife throughout history (both with changing rivers and setting prices.)

Not looking for a food fight so willing to agree to disagree.

Does this mean that hot air is in high demand because based on the compensation of many CEO’s that would be my conclusion.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

Hard work doesn't pay sh!t and never has. Ever see a sheetrocker driving a new caddy?

What I tell my kids is that hard work is table stakes, but what they really want to find is scarcity.

Have unique/hard-to-attain skills in a market with strong demand for those skills. You don't need to be a unicorn but if there are a zillion people with your skills then prices for your labor (money and intangibles) will implode.

Being a private in the military, a sheet rocker, ditch digger or even relatively simple service oriented/brainy tasks will never pay well because almost anyone can do it without much on-boarding. They may work harder that most but they will also earn less than most. Life isn't fair.

Electrician or plumber? Real skills, harder to develop, high demand, good pay.
Software Engineer? More so.
Pharmacist? More so.
Brain surgeon? More so.
Underwater welder? More so.