Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[audreyh1]

I agree that the turn signal is nice. I drove with autopilot since I had cancelled FSD. It really bothered me not to have that feature.

I guess you will be stuck with FSD from now on.

Another thing I noticed was that I did not quite trust autopilot after being used to FSD.

We’ll see. I may rent it for months where we have road trips. We drive little round here. And some part of the year we are traveling by plane. So we don’t need it fulltime.

 

[joesxm3]

This quarter they had some unexpected problems such as the two week supply cutoff due to the red sea and the shutdown due to the attack on the power to Berlin.

Since there is a lead time to ship cars for delivery a shut down at the wrong time can leave the cars in transit at the end of the quarter.

It will be interesting to hear how they explain things at the earnings call.

 

[joesxm3]

We’ll see. I may rent it for months where we have road trips. We drive little round here. And some part of the year we are traveling by plane. So we don’t need it fulltime.

That is my problem. I stay home most of the time so it is hard to justify the $200/month.

I suppose the same logic applies to buying the Tesla in the first place. But at the time I was worried about my old car cooking out while driving the parents.

With them gone I now have the old Acura plus their mouse infested 2015 Nissan. I try to drive them every couple days just to keep them from rotting. But I do take the Tesla if it is a long trip.

I probably could have toughed it out with the Nissan. But I need to BYD. I even bought a new pair of Darn Tough socks this month so I am really splurging.

 

[RetMD21]

We got the upgrade overnight and tried out FSD today. It was ok but I have a few observations.

Inside the subdivision it seemed to take its cues from the curb. The street is wide enough to drive closer to the center.

Making a left turn out of the subdivision it made me nervous by inching forward from when there was on oncoming school bus. It did wait but I wasn't sure why we were moving at all.

It stopped for no reason at a round about. There was plenty of space to go in front of the only oncoming car.

It lacks any concept of avoiding potholes.

It actually did ok going through a 4 way stop.

On one stretch of road it didn't know the speed limit it was easy to use the scroll wheel to speed up.

The most concerning thing is that it showed no inclination to slow or stop for a school bus with red lights flashing in the opposite lane. I don't think it noticed and I ended up taking over.

It's interesting but I'm not seeing much actual benefit from using it. You still have to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel. We'll try it on some longer drives within the next month.

 

[audreyh1]

That is my problem. I stay home most of the time so it is hard to justify the $200/month.

I suppose the same logic applies to buying the Tesla in the first place. But at the time I was worried about my old car cooking out while driving the parents.

With them gone I now have the old Acura plus their mouse infested 2015 Nissan. I try to drive them every couple days just to keep them from rotting. But I do take the Tesla if it is a long trip.

I probably could have toughed it out with the Nissan. But I need to BYD. I even bought a new pair of Darn Tough socks this month so I am really splurging.

DH did point out that it was a BTD opportunity!

 

[audreyh1]

We got the upgrade overnight and tried out FSD today. It was ok but I have a few observations.

Inside the subdivision it seemed to take its cues from the curb. The street is wide enough to drive closer to the center.

Making a left turn out of the subdivision it made me nervous by inching forward from when there was on oncoming school bus. It did wait but I wasn't sure why we were moving at all.

It stopped for no reason at a round about. There was plenty of space to go in front of the only oncoming car.

It lacks any concept of avoiding potholes.

It actually did ok going through a 4 way stop.

On one stretch of road it didn't know the speed limit it was easy to use the scroll wheel to speed up.

The most concerning thing is that it showed no inclination to slow or stop for a school bus with red lights flashing in the opposite lane. I don't think it noticed and I ended up taking over.

It's interesting but I'm not seeing much actual benefit from using it. You still have to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel. We'll try it on some longer drives within the next month.

Some things like stopped school buses with stop sign out and not avoiding potholes I already knew about by reading the TMC forum.

The creep bit - creeping signals intent and that’s part of the more human behavior V12 incorporates.

I see huge benefits. Cross town driving I didn’t have to do much more than pay attention. That was way easier to me.

Within my neighborhood with no center stripe roads it was brilliant getting out of the neighborhood. That was never an option before.

Cross country driving is where I expect it to pay off big time - much less driver fatigue. Yes, I have to pay attention, I never expected otherwise. This is level 2.

Leave hands on wheel except have to lift hands when wheel turning. Different. Okay. Happy for the car to do all the work of signaling, turning, stopping, waiting at lights, accelerating to speed limit, adjusting speed, merging into traffic lanes, etc. That’s a lot of work that I don’t have to do unless I decide to take over. It was truly amazing how little I had to do today. I mostly had to make sure the NAV route was my preferred route.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I think the slack in sales is that folks are realizing that an EV is not a good investment. Battery costs along with the vehicle premium, being a couple of the reasons. It is a feel-good purchase, which is OK, for those that feel good investing in one. But for us the investment is simply not worth the extra costs for little if no or even negative return. I have spoken to many of our friends and acquaintances, and they all agree, an EV is primarily a feel-good purchase, our pocketbook feels pretty good by not investing in one. Our car does not cost us much and can do 750 miles between fill ups. Plus, the insurance costs are very reasonable. If gas was $10 a gallon that would probably change the equation.

 

[audreyh1]

I think some of you folks seriously misattribute motivations to EV customers.

 

[DallasGuy]

I think the slack in sales is that folks are realizing that an EV is not a good investment. Battery costs along with the vehicle premium, being a couple of the reasons. It is a feel-good purchase, which is OK, for those that feel good investing in one. But for us the investment is simply not worth the extra costs for little if no or even negative return. I have spoken to many of our friends and acquaintances, and they all agree, an EV is primarily a feel-good purchase, our pocketbook feels pretty good by not investing in one. Our car does not cost us much and can do 750 miles between fill ups. Plus, the insurance costs are very reasonable. If gas was $10 a gallon that would probably change the equation.

Don't want one, don't get one. They're not for everyone. I don't blame anyone for not wanting one.

I love mine. I didn't pay much more (and in some cases less) than a similar sized ICE vehicle (base model Chevy Bolt EUV - $28.690). I love NEVER having to go to a dealer to get my oil changed or having to fill up my gas tank. I just plug my vehicle in at home and go and watch TV or do something else to occupy my time. In the rare instance I might want to take a long road trip, I'll either just live with the slower pace of travel/charging...or rent a car. I've had my EV 18 months and have never charged it up anywhere but at home...it sure saves me a bunch of time in not having to go to a gas station. The energy cost savings is substantial and I doubt the overall costs is more than someone with a similar sized ICE vehicle.

As others have probably said here, a big part EV sales slowing is not because they are EV's but because there is a lack of EV selection in the $25-35k price range. The Chevy Bolt was in that range and sold very well. Eventually there will be more choices in that price range. Then EV sales will really take off. I would have never bought an EV for anything over $35k....and the average price of a new ICE vehicle in the US in 2023 was about $48k. So I got my EV for much less than even an average priced new ICE vehicle.

 

[Midpack]

I think the slack in sales is that folks are realizing that an EV is not a good investment. Battery costs along with the vehicle premium, being a couple of the reasons. It is a feel-good purchase, which is OK, for those that feel good investing in one. But for us the investment is simply not worth the extra costs for little if no or even negative return. I have spoken to many of our friends and acquaintances, and they all agree, an EV is primarily a feel-good purchase, our pocketbook feels pretty good by not investing in one. Our car does not cost us much and can do 750 miles between fill ups. Plus, the insurance costs are very reasonable. If gas was $10 a gallon that would probably change the equation.

The slowdown in sales is because they’ve tapped out a lot of the early adopters at average car prices and above ($48K+), not for the reasons you’re guessing. The economics for the Model 3/Y along with several other EV makes/models is already competitive, with a reasonable break even.

Until there are EVs that can compete at lower price points, volume will reach a replacement steady state and level off, we’re probably getting close to that equilibrium. If there are new EVs at $25-30K, that opens up a broader addressable market, like lower priced ICE vehicles. Used EVs, at lower prices, is becoming a part of the calculus now too, but there will still be a plateau without lower priced EVs.

Range anxiety and charging infrastructure are also still barriers for some. If you travel long distances often, an EV may not be the best choice. If you can charge at home and only do long trips occasionally, an EV is already a good cost effective choice for many.

 

[Midpack]

We got the upgrade overnight and tried out FSD today. It was ok but I have a few observations.

Inside the subdivision it seemed to take its cues from the curb. The street is wide enough to drive closer to the center. As you might imagine, the logic will favor the right side of the road when in doubt, as it should. That’s what a human should/do on an unmarked wide road, so when an oncoming car comes along you’re already to the right. Most humans wouldn’t drive down the center, and dodge right whenever a car comes along - though they could?

Making a left turn out of the subdivision it made me nervous by inching forward from when there was on oncoming school bus. It did wait but I wasn't sure why we were moving at all. That’s not new with V12, V11 was the same - though my prelim experience is V12 is more tentative than V11 at stop signs so far. NHTSA won’t allow rolling stops even though most humans do it, so FSD includes a full stop no matter what, and then inches forward to give the cameras a better view. It does seem unnatural to a human, but that’s how it’s supposed to work, it won’t enter the intersection until it’s “confident.” When the car is confident to proceed into an intersection right, left or across depends on how clearly the cameras can see. If there are bushes, buildings or other in the way, FSD will keep creeping until it’s sure enough to proceed. It will err on the side of caution as it should, or regulators and the public will never trust self driving cars. If you think about it, every intersection is a new situation for FSD, even familiar ones can have different traffic, obstacles, visibility on a given day.

It stopped for no reason at a round about. There was plenty of space to go in front of the only oncoming car. I’d have to know more, but I suspect it was again erring with caution. Humans can judge things that FSD can’t (yet), and unfortunately human drivers do unexpected maneuvers that FSD has to account for. Ironically when all cars are FSD, it will work better as FSD cars won’t do crazy things like some humans do. Right or wrong, FSD will defer to human drivers. Finding the balance between too cautious and too assertive for FSD is an art, they’ve improved a lot over the years.

It lacks any concept of avoiding potholes.Yep, speed bumps have been a problem too so far. Not to mention snow and ice plus darkness make FSD a much bigger challenge…

I’ve mentioned it before, but IME FSD is far more cautious with pedestrians than human drivers. A human driver can judge a pedestrian just standing beside the road, FSD has to account for the pedestrian randomly stepping into the road.

It actually did ok going through a 4 way stop.

An addition: FSD V11 occasionally “saw” things that weren’t there. For example, I was doing 35 mph in a neighborhood, and the car slowed to about 25 mph just before cresting a hill - there were no cars in either direction at the time. Not sure what the FSD logic was that triggered the slowdown?

On one stretch of road it didn't know the speed limit it was easy to use the scroll wheel to speed up.

The most concerning thing is that it showed no inclination to slow or stop for a school bus with red lights flashing in the opposite lane. I don't think it noticed and I ended up taking over. A real issue, and one I hadn’t encountered in person or among YouTube experts.

It's interesting but I'm not seeing much actual benefit from using it. You still have to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel. We'll try it on some longer drives within the next month. Though I think FSD is fascinating and amazing, I wouldn’t pay $12K or $200/mo to have it, not even close. It’s a monumental challenge, and they’ve come a very long way, but it’s not there yet. If they reach a point that FSD works better than a human driver with no interventions, that’s when it will have broader appeal. We have to go through this development phase to get there, no way around it.

With only 3 months experience with V11, and now trying out V12 I’m no expert, but I’ve read tons and watched lots of FSD experts on YouTube so comments above FWIW. I’d only say give it some time and then you’ll get more comfortable with what’s normal and what the strengths and shortcomings are.

 

[audreyh1]

Slowing down just before cresting a hill? Makes sense to me, it’s a blind spot/poor visibility situation.

I’m reading much less nag about hands on the wheel. 12.3.3 seems to monitor that you are paying attention by head position/eyes on the road. Chuck Cook noted that the hands on the wheel directive seems to have been dropped in the release notes. Still nags but much less frequently. Interesting. Practically speaking you have to lift off hand when the car is making turns. During long straights is where it would be most likely to nag.

At this point, finally, we’re likely willing to pay $200 a month for a few months a year. Already I am expecting that it will make my drive to AZ and back much much easier. We’ll know better of course after our trip.

 

[Midpack]

+1. Chuck is one of the very best resources for FSD. He does new videos almost daily, and knows FSD so well Tesla uses him as an early release tester.

 

[joesxm3]

Reacting to one comment by Midpack.

I saw a discussion a while ago that same that every situation is new to the FSD neural network. It does not remember previous situations. Each time you turn at the end of your street the NN treats it as a separate problem and can come up with a slightly different answer.

I am still trying to understand NN but my impression is that the learning occurs during the training process. So if your car uploads training data from your corner, the next release may have learned your corner but the current release will have not.

I may be wrong but if I am my next version will correct that.

 

[audreyh1]

A couple of things other FSD drivers have warned about:

School zones don’t appear to be handled (well). At least not the flashing light part or the time periods so be extra vigilant there.

Traffic circles/roundabouts - some people are reporting poor handling. Chucks video above shows excellent handling so I guess it depends.

Another note:

We have an odd situation that appeared just a few months ago (not FSD) - we have a short stretch of road where the NAV doesn’t know the speed on the road outside our development. There actually is no speed limit sign northbound. You only see a speed limit sign southbound. Up until a few months ago autosteer limited speed to 45. That’s OK - it’s actually 55, but only about 0.5 mile before you do encounter a 45mph speed limit sign.

But a few months ago suddenly the NAV decides that the speed limit is 15mph which is the limit in our neighborhood. Annoying. FSD was the same - as usual I just kept my foot pressing the accelerator until we got up to the 45mph sign.

 

[Nash]

The EV sales slowdown will continue.

The consumer is not going to pay more for a vehicle with less range, higher insurance costs, few charging stations, long charging times, cold-weather range reduction, and poor resale value.

Also, my ICE vehicle "charges" 30+ miles in 8 seconds! I can drive it anywhere without being tracked. An over-the-air software update cannot demobilize my ICE vehicle.

EVs are vastly inferior and won't make it in the USA.

 

[DallasGuy]

The EV sales slowdown will continue.

The consumer is not going to pay more for a vehicle with less range, higher insurance costs, few charging stations, long charging times, cold-weather range reduction, and poor resale value.

Also, my ICE vehicle "charges" 30+ miles in 8 seconds! I can drive it anywhere without being tracked. An over-the-air software update cannot demobilize my ICE vehicle.

EVs are vastly inferior and won't make it in the USA.

We get it...you hate EV's. Nuff said. This forum was meant to discuss different EV models, not to continuously try to convince people who are interested in an EV, that they're not good. Why do you care so much anyway? Just buy your ICE vehicle and leave this forum to the people that actually have an EV or are interested in one!

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

The EV sales slowdown will continue.

OK, let's look at some facts, rather than just picking and choosing what confirms your biases:

The consumer is not going to pay more for a vehicle with less range, higher insurance costs, few charging stations, long charging times, cold-weather range reduction, and poor resale value.

People are buying them. Range is sometimes about the same or better than ICEs. I hardly ever need any other charging stations other than the one at home, and on my one road trip, there were plenty of charging stations to choose from. BTW, ICEs with AC have "range reduction" during hot weather as they have to idle faster to run the compressor. Oh, speaking of idle, how much fuel does your ICE car use while stopped at a light? Because mine uses virtually nothing (about 1% of its normal consumption). And the resale value should be much better than ICEs, because there's no ICE to wear out rings and pistons, then only parts that usually needs changing are the tires. I'm babying my battery, this generation will probably keep 80+% of its capacity for at least 1-2 decades.

Also, my ICE vehicle "charges" 30+ miles in 8 seconds! I can drive it anywhere without being tracked. An over-the-air software update cannot demobilize my ICE vehicle.

I can charge from 20-80% in 10-15 minutes, and to be honest I'd be fine if it were slower, I like to stretch my legs on road trips. But most of the time I just plug it in at home, I no longer have to waste time going out of my way to gas stations and sitting there waiting for it to fill up. And it's much cheaper. Oh, and any new ICE vehicle can be tracked and disabled via software; in case you didn't know, all cars have had computers for decades now, and OTA updates are specific to EVs.

EVs are vastly inferior and won't make it in the USA.

Sure, that's why EV sales continue to grow quickly year over year, even here in the US, where adoption is relatively slow. (Image is from https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales.)

 

[MichaelB]

<mod note> This thread is not the place to discuss EV vs ICE. Take it elsewhere, please.

This thread is about EV models, features and capabilities.

 

[Midpack]

At this point, finally, we’re likely willing to pay $200 a month for a few months a year. Already I am expecting that it will make my drive to AZ and back much much easier. We’ll know better of course after our trip.

IME FSD is nearly perfect on highways and major roads as you probably know. Lane keeping, adjusting speeds, signaling, opportunistic and other lane changes, etc. On lesser roads or traffic that is unusual, it won't do anything unsafe, it will just hesitate - sometimes too long, so you have to take over to avoid irritating drivers behind you.

I've done 3 V12 FSD drives now of 10 top 35 miles on highways, neighborhoods, traffic, no traffic and it hasn't made any mistakes yet. I have only intervened when I decided to be more assertive than FSD is coded for necessarily. It has to err to the side of caution until it's closer to 100%. Will keep evaluating until my one month trial is over 4/29.

 

[DayDreaming]

Reacting to one comment by Midpack.

I saw a discussion a while ago that same that every situation is new to the FSD neural network. It does not remember previous situations. Each time you turn at the end of your street the NN treats it as a separate problem and can come up with a slightly different answer.

I am still trying to understand NN but my impression is that the learning occurs during the training process. So if your car uploads training data from your corner, the next release may have learned your corner but the current release will have not.

I may be wrong but if I am my next version will correct that.

The difference is in learning vs memorizing.
The neural network is constantly learning. But you don't want it to drive based on what it memorized from the last time it did that turn. Last time, the coast may have been clear. This time, there may be a utility vehicle parked in the middle of the road. So your car really needs to look at the current conditions and act upon that, even if it did learn your turn last time.

 

[RetMD21]

With only 3 months experience with V11, and now trying out V12 I’m no expert, but I’ve read tons and watched lots of FSD experts on YouTube so comments above FWIW. I’d only say give it some time and then you’ll get more comfortable with what’s normal and what the strengths and shortcomings are.

It is impressive that it works as well as it does. I noticed today that it stopped behind a stop sign leaving the subdivision but you can't see the roadway unless you go a few feet further. Knowing that I can skip the intermediate step. I'll have to try highway driving. I am sure it is better there. Of course, other manufacturers like GM and Ford have highway software of some sort. For in town driving I am not seeing the benefit to me.

Today it decided to take me on an unpaved residential street in a nearby town. It was going slowly but headed at a utility pole so I took over. To be fair, there is no curb so it's hard to know where thee edge of the road lies.

Is the point of full self driving to train the software for the eventual move to autonomous?

 

[audreyh1]

IME FSD is nearly perfect on highways and major roads as you probably know. Lane keeping, adjusting speeds, signaling, opportunistic and other lane changes, etc. On lesser roads or traffic that is unusual, it won't do anything unsafe, it will just hesitate - sometimes too long, so you have to take over to avoid irritating drivers behind you.

I've done 3 V12 FSD drives now of 10 top 35 miles on highways, neighborhoods, traffic, no traffic and it hasn't made any mistakes yet. I have only intervened when I decided to be more assertive than FSD is coded for necessarily. It has to err to the side of caution until it's closer to 100%. Will keep evaluating until my one month trial is over 4/29.

Yesterday was our first time ever using FSD. DH and I had both read and watched videos, but we had never actually used it. So it was quite the in person experience for us yesterday.

Our trial is also over 4/29.

Hmm I think I need to run an errand tomorrow! Hey, I can have the car drive me to the grocery store!

 

[joesxm3]

If you think it is doing something wrong you should disengage and then record a voice msg saying why. That will help them to improve it.

If there is a white line at the stop sign the law says you should stop there even if you can't see. V11 obeyed this.

 

[GaryInCO]

Any idea when a v11.1 2024.8.7 car will get updated to the trial? I’m leaving on a 2000 mile road trip this weekend, and I really hoped to let V12 do the driving. If it doesn’t start this week, I’d rather wait until mid May to start the trial, but I doubt I will get any say on when it starts.