Anything different heating this winter?

[NW-Bound]

... Most European manufacturing is completely shut down and all gas diverted for use to heat civilians. In effect, Europe has been de-industrialized.

Natural gas is used for a lot of things people do not realize. For example, it is used to make nitrogen fertilizer.

Without fertilizer, we cannot even farm. Forget about fancy stuff, people will struggle to get enough food.

 

[Oilcan]

Good special on farming on News Nation last weekend: Next year the U. S. will be importing more food than they export.

 

[finnski1]

No changes here in heating. I just checked our bill for gas for November and it is $49 and change. November was a cold bearcat here and furnace run a lot. Also, that $49 includes gas hot water heat also. We look at 400 to 500 dollars for a year to heat for 8 months. I could do wood heat but not worth the effort and hassle with cost of gas.

A lot of people go electric in the area with an electric rate @ 3.8¢ a KWH. That is through October thru April. Then rate goes back to 8.6¢ KWH.

AC costs us <$75 a year, isn't on much if any thru the summer.

If I could heat (and hot water?) for 8 months for only $4-500 I wouldn't do a thing either

 

[11522914]

No changes here in heating. I just checked our bill for gas for November and it is $49 and change. November was a cold bearcat here and furnace run a lot. Also, that $49 includes gas hot water heat also. We look at 400 to 500 dollars for a year to heat for 8 months. I could do wood heat but not worth the effort and hassle with cost of gas.

A lot of people go electric in the area with an electric rate @ 3.8¢ a KWH. That is through October thru April. Then rate goes back to 8.6¢ KWH.

AC costs us <$75 a year, isn't on much if any thru the summer.

You must have some great natural gas rates for it to be cold, running the furnace a lot and only $49.

Good for you [emoji4]

 

[misanman]

Natural gas is used for a lot of things people do not realize. For example, it is used to make nitrogen fertilizer.

Without fertilizer, we cannot even farm. Forget about fancy stuff, people will struggle to get enough food.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but there is a plan to convert 1,000+ acres of local prime farmland to a solar farm. Seems like trading off food production for green energy. Wonder what the total acres converted around the country looks like?

 

[Pellice]

I'm too cold-blooded to turn down the thermostat to 50. I lower it to 65 at night, but that's huddling under a pile of blankets. During the day I'm in the house all day most days. Anything less than 72 and I can't work in my office -- my fingers get too stiff to type.

My gas bill runs about $150/mo in the winter. Electric is about $200 in the summer. My furnace is 15 yrs old & AC is 30 yrs old, so I'm seriously considering a heat pump.

I'm with you, Gary. 72 is the minimum for daytime house temperature. And that's with a turtleneck, a fleece, jeans, socks, and shoes. I get cold easily.

BUT - I make it up in summer. AC is set at 80, and I don't always use that. It's turned off completely at night in favor of open windows. This was a very hot summer, but I was able to navigate it pretty easily with sleeveless tops and shorts in the house.

 

[pdxgal]

I'm on a mission to minimize drafts and air transfer from/to the crawlspace. It's motivated less by energy costs (which aren't too onerous) than by a desire to be comfortable. I recently made some DIY exterior storm windows as a "pilot", and they're proving fairly effective. They can be easily swapped out in summer for screens. I'm thinking of getting some more robust storms from Larson, especially since they are getting out of the business so this is my last chance.

I'm also exploring ways to seal my ducts and better insulate the crawlspace. My return ducts are panned joists, which are notoriously leaky and hard to insulate. Trying to find someone to replace them is proving difficult. I just learned about a product called AeroSeal that seals ducts from the inside. Looks like a very cool technology, though not sure I want to pay what it costs (maybe $2k?). It would be a "blow that dough" thing

 

[Music Lover]

I'm also exploring ways to seal my ducts and better insulate the crawlspace. My return ducts are panned joists, which are notoriously leaky and hard to insulate. Trying to find someone to replace them is proving difficult

If the return ducts are in a conditioned space it's not necessary to have them perfectly sealed.

 

[6miths]

We have two sealed wood burning units with blowers and hardwood is only up by less than 5% plus I took down several dead ash trees so will burn those too. Natural gas doesn't seem that much more expensive yet but we will see. DW hasn't let me execute my main energy savings strategy yet - downsizing this now overly large house!

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I've been wanting to buy 100 gallons of heating oil for my backup boiler and have been watching diesel prices to signal an opportunity. Gasoline is under $3 a gallon around here, but diesel remains stubbornly high, upwards of $4.50/gal. I can wait, but what gives?

 

[pdxgal]

If the return ducts are in a conditioned space it's not necessary to have them perfectly sealed.

Alas mine are mostly in the unconditioned crawl.

 

[Koolau]

The world's problem with energy shortage is only beginning.

I don't like what I am seeing, but other than keep putting up more solar panels and lithium cells, there's nothing else I can do.

Oh, I can also prepare myself to have energy costs, not just household consumption but also for cars, to eat a bigger chunk of the total living expenses.

I submit that there is (at least in recent and current times) NO energy shortage in the world. Energy exploitation and DISTRIBUTION is the real issue (and, of course, that includes geopolitical issues on top of lack of infrastructure.) It's the same concept as food. There IS enough food to feed the world, but it can't currently be distributed adequately (for much the same reasons.) I have heard that much of the world's grain is eaten by rodents or rots due to poor management and, again, geopolitical issues.

IOW with adequate will and political tolerance, energy would not be near the issue that has become. I agree that issues of energy will get worse - especially as we actually begin to run out of producible energy. (From everything I have seen, that will not happen in most of our life times.) Superimposing the green agenda on top of infrastructure issues and geopolitical issues means the world is in a bad way regarding energy. Sad, because it doesn't have to be that way - at least not for a while yet.

I admit that I'm no expert on this subject but I submit that it is self evident though YMMV.

 

[Chuckanut]

I am looking at replacing my aging baseboard heaters with a ductless system. But, the cost is very high.

My neighbors have a ductless heat pump system and they estimate they save about $30 a month heating their home. compared to using the baseboards. The payback on that is well past the time I would be around even if I live to a very ripe old age.

 

[Koolau]

Sorry, a bit off topic, but there is a plan to convert 1,000+ acres of local prime farmland to a solar farm. Seems like trading off food production for green energy. Wonder what the total acres converted around the country looks like?

Nothing new there. We have millions of acres of farm land committed to producing corn for ethanol. Here is an article - just from a quick search - that suggest (claims) that it would be much more efficient to just put up PV panels instead.

https://www.freeingenergy.com/replace-farmland-farm-corn-ethanol-solar-panels/

I don't have an opinion on that but I'm guessing it is correct as (arguably) it may require more FF energy to produce and distribute ethanol than the ethanol saves. However, due to politics of farming, that's not gonna change anytime soon. One more reason I submit that our current energy issues are mostly self inflicted but YMMV.

 

[aja8888]

Nothing new there. We have millions of acres of farm land committed to producing corn for ethanol. Here is an article - just from a quick search - that suggest (claims) that it would be much more efficient to just put up PV panels instead.

https://www.freeingenergy.com/replace-farmland-farm-corn-ethanol-solar-panels/

I don't have an opinion on that but I'm guessing it is correct as (arguably) it may require more FF energy to produce and distribute ethanol than the ethanol saves. However, due to politics of farming, that's not gonna change anytime soon. One more reason I submit that our current energy issues are mostly self inflicted but YMMV.

Ethanol is a loser. It takes lots of energy to turn corn into alcohol (think chemical plant). Plus, the ethanol can't be pipelined to blending and distribution terminals around the U.S. (hundreds of them). Ethanol is too corrosive for pipeline transport so it's sent by tank truck or rail car.

Then at the distribution terminal, ethanol has to be stored in special tankage and then blended into the fuel.

 

[pdxgal]

I am looking at replacing my aging baseboard heaters with a ductless system. But, the cost is very high.

True, that. Though I believe there are rebates now thanks to recent fed'l legislation. PLUS the heat pumps offer A/C in summer. That was the kicker for me. I put a mini-split in my upstairs ADU after the tenant mildly complained about the August heat two years ago. Works great, tenant loves it and saves me about $300/year. Cost was $2500 (after rebate), so payback just over 8 years. Not too bad. I was so impressed I installed them in my duplex rental units. Payback harder to calculate there, as I don't pay the electric myself. But it makes the units more desirable (especially the A/C, now that Portland summers are getting hotter) so if the heat pumps reduce turnover it'll be well worth it. FWIW my units are in the 550-700 sq ft range. The costs for a house would of course be higher (my sister had two installed, one for each floor, for $9k last year).

If you WERE looking to BTD, a heat pump would be a nice option. Totally understand that the payback probably isn't there (though supposedly they're better for the planet since they use less energy).

 

[NW-Bound]

True, that. Though I believe there are rebates now thanks to recent fed'l legislation. PLUS the heat pumps offer A/C in summer. That was the kicker for me. I put a mini-split in my upstairs ADU after the tenant mildly complained about the August heat two years ago. Works great, tenant loves it and saves me about $300/year. Cost was $2500 (after rebate), so payback just over 8 years. Not too bad. I was so impressed I installed them in my duplex rental units. Payback harder to calculate there, as I don't pay the electric myself. But it makes the units more desirable (especially the A/C, now that Portland summers are getting hotter) so if the heat pumps reduce turnover it'll be well worth it. FWIW my units are in the 550-700 sq ft range. The costs for a house would of course be higher (my sister had two installed, one for each floor, for $9k last year).

If you WERE looking to BTD, a heat pump would be a nice option. Totally understand that the payback probably isn't there (though supposedly they're better for the planet since they use less energy).

In Phoenix, heat pumps are not BTD, nor an option. They are life-support equipment, for the summer as well as for the winter as new subdivisions do not have natural gas lines.

 

[misanman]

Okay, just received an offer from my thermostat company. If I sign up to allow the local utility to adjust my thermostat this heating season, I will get $100 to start and then an additional $100 at season end (after March 31). They promise to adjust is at most 15 times (seems like a lot) and for at most 4 hours (also seems like a lot). I can cancel any time online or even via the thermostat. Apparently the thermostat would be adjusted if they were having an issue with low natural gas pressure presumably because demand is high. There is no information on how much of an adjustment they'd make.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of offer? How'd it work out? Should I pass or go for it?

I think that I wouldn't mind it much of the time, but it wouldn't be so great if DW was cold or if we had company and I had to explain that the utility was turning down our heat.

 

[aaronc879]

Okay, just received an offer from my thermostat company. If I sign up to allow the local utility to adjust my thermostat this heating season, I will get $100 to start and then an additional $100 at season end (after March 31). They promise to adjust is at most 15 times (seems like a lot) and for at most 4 hours (also seems like a lot). I can cancel any time online or even via the thermostat. Apparently the thermostat would be adjusted if they were having an issue with low natural gas pressure presumably because demand is high. There is no information on how much of an adjustment they'd make.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of offer? How'd it work out? Should I pass or go for it?

I think that I wouldn't mind it much of the time, but it wouldn't be so great if DW was cold or if we had company and I had to explain that the utility was turning down our heat.

This isn't something I would consider unless I was extremely poor. If I was a retired millionaire or had a big pension I wouldn't even think about something like this. Not even close to worth it unless you are in financial need for something like this IMO.

 

[braumeister]

Okay, just received an offer from my thermostat company. If I sign up to allow the local utility to adjust my thermostat this heating season, I will get $100 to start and then an additional $100 at season end (after March 31). They promise to adjust is at most 15 times (seems like a lot) and for at most 4 hours (also seems like a lot). I can cancel any time online or even via the thermostat. Apparently the thermostat would be adjusted if they were having an issue with low natural gas pressure presumably because demand is high. There is no information on how much of an adjustment they'd make.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of offer? How'd it work out? Should I pass or go for it?

I think that I wouldn't mind it much of the time, but it wouldn't be so great if DW was cold or if we had company and I had to explain that the utility was turning down our heat.

We have gotten those kinds of offers at least once a year for over a decade from our electric company, not for heating but for throttling your air conditioner in the summer. I considered it but wanted to wait to see what others thought (just like you're doing now). There have been quite a few items in the local newspaper about "glitches" in the system, where people had their A/C shut down for days at a time during the heat of the summer. I decided to maintain control of my own thermostat.

 

[Walt34]

I'm with braumeister on allowing the utility to turn down my thermostat. Now, if they offered an all-expense paid trip to the Florida Keys for the winter, I'd seriously consider that. But they have to make it worth my while to suffer the risk of sunburn and all.

 

[Koolau]

I have (recently - and somewhere here on the forum) mentioned that we took an offer from HECO (our electric company) to allow them to shut off our electric hot water heater in a similar manner. It only saved $3/month but I did it because of the promise that this could save them from building yet more peaking stations which would eventually raise our bills. The parameters were set in stone: How many times they could do this. How long the power to the heater would be off. etc. We never noticed it as we had a 50 gallon tank and took short showers (heh, heh, to save money!)

Something like this is the "sweet spot" of allowing a utility to control energy usage. If there were a similar offer for nat-gas usage, I would want to know the parameters up front. For enough money, I would be tempted. But if anything were shut off for 4 hours, that could be a significant issue - especially during peak heating season (or cooling season in the case of electricity.) The devil is in the details so YMMV.

 

[braumeister]

...we took an offer from HECO (our electric company) to allow them to shut off our electric hot water heater...

That was money you were just throwing away anyway. Why would you want to heat your hot water?

 

[jazz4cash]

Okay, just received an offer from my thermostat company. If I sign up to allow the local utility to adjust my thermostat this heating season, I will get $100 to start and then an additional $100 at season end (after March 31). They promise to adjust is at most 15 times (seems like a lot) and for at most 4 hours (also seems like a lot). I can cancel any time online or even via the thermostat. Apparently the thermostat would be adjusted if they were having an issue with low natural gas pressure presumably because demand is high. There is no information on how much of an adjustment they'd make.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of offer? How'd it work out? Should I pass or go for it?

I think that I wouldn't mind it much of the time, but it wouldn't be so great if DW was cold or if we had company and I had to explain that the utility was turning down our heat.

We have participated in our local utilities summer AC program for many years. You REALLY need more details on how they will execute the program. Our utility has a remote controlled switch installed on the outdoor AC Unit (condenser). There is an option for a remote controlled t-stat instead. We can choose 3 levels of participation (25%, 50%, or 75%). The 50 % level means they shut the unit down 30 minutes per hour. They pay ~$19/ mo May thru Sept regardless of how often the remote control occurs. It is only triggered if a “power emergency” occurs. They can only occur weekdays from 1-7pm. Sometimes they advise the day before via text. It is a peak load management tool intended to eliminate the need for additional capacity. These events generally only occur 3-4 times per season. You can override up to 2 events per season

 

[ncbill]

Okay, just received an offer from my thermostat company. If I sign up to allow the local utility to adjust my thermostat this heating season, I will get $100 to start and then an additional $100 at season end (after March 31). They promise to adjust is at most 15 times (seems like a lot) and for at most 4 hours (also seems like a lot). I can cancel any time online or even via the thermostat. Apparently the thermostat would be adjusted if they were having an issue with low natural gas pressure presumably because demand is high. There is no information on how much of an adjustment they'd make.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of offer? How'd it work out? Should I pass or go for it?

I think that I wouldn't mind it much of the time, but it wouldn't be so great if DW was cold or if we had company and I had to explain that the utility was turning down our heat.

What's the minimum temperature they guarantee not to set your thermostat below?

I set my thermostat at 60ºF most of the time in the winter so I'd happily take the deal if the minimum were no lower than, say, 55ºF.