This hits at the nub of the issue. As Wallace Stegner notes over and over and over in his excellent biography of Powell (Beyond the 100th Meridian), Powell realized early that the West was a) dry, b) would not support dry farming for long, given the tendency towards drought and c) water needed to be preserved carefully in the West. Powell is an interesting figure, well worth of reading his biography, even if he is largely ignored now. I highly recommend this book, as well as David Weber, for anyone interested in water issues in the Western US.
Colorado River
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This hits at the nub of the issue. As Wallace Stegner notes over and over and over in his excellent biography of Powell (Beyond the 100th Meridian), Powell realized early that the West was a) dry, b) would not support dry farming for long, given the tendency towards drought and c) water needed to be preserved carefully in the West. Powell is an interesting figure, well worth of reading his biography, even if he is largely ignored now. I highly recommend this book, as well as David Weber, for anyone interested in water issues in the Western US.
Politics are for feuding; water rights are for fighting, as my Okie granddad used to say. But your point is exactly correct; states with water aren't going to just give it up. The West doesn't have water.
Sorry to hog the thread; I've got xericape in the back yard and only a 20x10 foot patch of grass in the front yard. When water gets restricted, I'll xeriscape the front yard too and drip water the cherry and apple and peach trees. By the way, average spring temps in Reno are up almost 6 degrees since the 50's, pretty much the highest increase in the US. We are at the point of the spear., saved only by the Truckee River flowing out of Lake Tahoe.
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Its May.. annual doom and gloom time of year when seasonal runoffs from snow-melt in higher elevation haven't started flowing to Lake Powell (yet). Yes, water level in two lakes is lower now this year compared to last year.
A country like Saudi Arabia can build dozens of desalination plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Saudi_Arabia).. but for some reason US can't? Oh is it the money? Looks like we just spent $40 billion to keep a war going in Europe. But can't afford $40 billion dollar to setup water de-salination plants in US for our own citizens?
Point is - its not because of lack of money. Politicians find money(aka print more fiat) when they are motivated to find(print/debt) it.
And those who say it is very expensive: Annual investment in water supply and sanitation expenses that Saudi Arabia has is US$200/capita.
A country like Saudi Arabia can build dozens of desalination plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Saudi_Arabia).. but for some reason US can't? Oh is it the money? Looks like we just spent $40 billion to keep a war going in Europe. But can't afford $40 billion dollar to setup water de-salination plants in US for our own citizens?
Point is - its not because of lack of money. Politicians find money(aka print more fiat) when they are motivated to find(print/debt) it.
And those who say it is very expensive: Annual investment in water supply and sanitation expenses that Saudi Arabia has is US$200/capita.
Doom and gloom is warranted.
"The Colorado River basin has experienced three D4 droughts in the last 20 years, including the current one. 2002, 2018 and 2021 are the most intense dry periods on record for the basin." Admittedly, strong monsoons and snowpack COULD come back, but look at the charts of the drought and the the fact that Colorado reservoirs are at 48% of capacity (that was 4-5 months ago, I'm sure capacity has crept up, some). By the way, in September 2021, storage in the basin was down to 39% of capacity.
It's not a pretty picture, but as you say, desalination is certainly a possibility; I think San Diego is already desalinating, but I can be corrected on this.
I will repeat, the reservoirs in the basin were below half capacity. Vegas was lucky to complete its lower "pipestraw" below the former one, because the old higher one is now about to suck air.
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/colorado-river-dry/
"The Colorado River basin has experienced three D4 droughts in the last 20 years, including the current one. 2002, 2018 and 2021 are the most intense dry periods on record for the basin." Admittedly, strong monsoons and snowpack COULD come back, but look at the charts of the drought and the the fact that Colorado reservoirs are at 48% of capacity (that was 4-5 months ago, I'm sure capacity has crept up, some). By the way, in September 2021, storage in the basin was down to 39% of capacity.
It's not a pretty picture, but as you say, desalination is certainly a possibility; I think San Diego is already desalinating, but I can be corrected on this.
I will repeat, the reservoirs in the basin were below half capacity. Vegas was lucky to complete its lower "pipestraw" below the former one, because the old higher one is now about to suck air.
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/colorado-river-dry/
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Right.. water level in these two reservoirs are lower than past few years. But lets not forget that if we reduce agriculture portion of water usage (by even 50%) in CA and AZ, then CA and AZ are self-sufficient with local water supply. Not sure what the dynamics are for Nevada (I need to research more about Nevada's geography).
Reduced agricultural output from CA and AZ will have just as much impact on rest of country as it will on CA and AZ.
Desalination plants work. They have been working in Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE et al. Energy consumption for desalination has come down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination). If we can build pipelines to transport heavy oil from north to south, we can build pipelines to ship desalinated water to AZ, CA and Nevada.
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Yes and six years ago the Great Lake that is Huron-Michigan was at a record low level. Thankfully has rebounded but I don't think the locals would be too pleased to see water being piped at huge expense so people could live in the desert. There are protests when PepsiCo and Coca Cola pull water from them to bottle and ship away.
street
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I'm very fortunate to live in an area that has great water and so far, plenty of it. I had mentioned before that I have two sand point wells that I have driven in the last few years. Water about 15 feet down and don't even need a pressure tank. Water runs right out the hills and right up through the ground. They run all year and never stop. I check depth each year and the depth hasn't changed but I would think if the drought continued for a few more years, it could.
Yellowstone River is very low now and it should be running hard and furious this time of year. I'm sure it will raise some from now till June but without significant moisture this year it will be very low by freeze up.
Yellowstone River is very low now and it should be running hard and furious this time of year. I'm sure it will raise some from now till June but without significant moisture this year it will be very low by freeze up.
NW-Bound
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I am envious.
I now have to figure out if there's enough sunlight there to have my own solar farm. If you have plenty of water and electricity, you can solve a lot of other problems.
Reducing agricultural use in CA (Central Valley) will be.......... interesting, politically and otherwise (food prices) but I agree with you in the main, yhoomajor.
I've never understood why, from a geological perspective, LA, Phoenix, and Vegas got big. Vegas, however, is recycling all of its waste water (not run-off unfortunately); LA and Phoenix will get there soon, I'm sure.
I've never understood why, from a geological perspective, LA, Phoenix, and Vegas got big. Vegas, however, is recycling all of its waste water (not run-off unfortunately); LA and Phoenix will get there soon, I'm sure.
NW-Bound
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In a previous drought, San Diego County spent money to build a desalination plant. Then, good rainfall resumed, and the plant was mothballed before it got finished.
As of a couple of years ago, they were talking about bringing it online. I don't know if it is operating now.
street
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Between the sun and wind, I would have more power than I would need. I never looked into a home wind generation system but that was a thing many did in rural areas.
There are a few rural places that have wind generation. We used to have a program to buy back electricity from the ones that had wind generation. Wind always blows in the west in high country and plains.
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Sunset
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There is an issue of over production of electricity in CA, instead of paying someone to use it, they could use it to run some desalination plants.
Could be a future use of over production of solar power as well.
Could be a future use of over production of solar power as well.
Popeye
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So if the western states develop an abundance of renewable energy, will they be expected to share with other areas but not get any water in return? I can hear the discussions now!
ERD50
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While that sounds like a great idea, the general problem with these sorts of plans is that the equipment that would be used for short term 'over production' (I don't think that's the right term for what's happening in CA, but that's another story), is expensive. High fixed capital costs. The way to make the product affordable is to run those plants 24/7/365.25 (don't want to waste that leap day!).
And that 'over production' isn't exactly that - it doesn't mean CA is over-producing enough RE to more than power the State, it means that for a few hours a day in late afternoon-evening, they had to ramp up the fossil plants to provide enough electricity as the sun goes down and demand ramps up (the "Duck Curve"). The steam plants ramp up/down slowly, so they have to ramp them up early, and keep them going longer than they really need to cover that gap. That's why there is so much interest in battery and pumped-water storage.
So it is an 'over production' in the sense that CA occasionally can't use it all, but it isn't like RE is providing everything and more.
At any rate, it doesn't happen enough hours a day to make it feasible for any high capital investment production. That stuff needs to run around the clock.
And BTW, just about every "Duck Curve" I see on the web is rather misleading. They 'zoom' in - if you actually extend the graph down to the zero line, the whole effect looks less extreme.
I would think the problem could also be solved by more gas turbines (direct combustion), those can ramp up/down very fast.
-ERD50
Titanic engineering projects that are sometimes suggested as a remedy for human problems bring their own costs - overt and short-term (try to imagine the taxation required for a continental pipeline - along with "forever" maintenance) - and unintended and long-term (environmental and political costs - Great Lakes? What about Canada?)
I'm going to suggest an easier and better and cheaper and more sensible solution again: that non-location-dependent businesses and industries start to factor in the cost of water into their calculations (perhaps by paying real costs), and start to move out to areas that have infrastructure and space and water - yes, back to the Midwest, where cities have lost population. Industries move All The Time - my father's huge factory closed for a move to another state. Boeing is unaccountably moving its HQ from Chicago to overcrowded coastal state Virginia. So, yes, it can be done and far more easily than building gigantic, expensive projects.
And people move all the time too - migration is the natural condition of the human race. The west is overpopulated vis a vis its water resources. Isn't a gradual shift of industry and business (and their depenent people) away from the overcrowded and overdeveloped coasts a sensible, human-scale solution?
I'm going to suggest an easier and better and cheaper and more sensible solution again: that non-location-dependent businesses and industries start to factor in the cost of water into their calculations (perhaps by paying real costs), and start to move out to areas that have infrastructure and space and water - yes, back to the Midwest, where cities have lost population. Industries move All The Time - my father's huge factory closed for a move to another state. Boeing is unaccountably moving its HQ from Chicago to overcrowded coastal state Virginia. So, yes, it can be done and far more easily than building gigantic, expensive projects.
And people move all the time too - migration is the natural condition of the human race. The west is overpopulated vis a vis its water resources. Isn't a gradual shift of industry and business (and their depenent people) away from the overcrowded and overdeveloped coasts a sensible, human-scale solution?
...As has our entire planet's weather. Coal and oil exist all over in what is now snow-covered, desert, under water, etc. Ask a climate-alarmist how the fossil fuels got THERE and mostly you get a blank stare. Apparently they have no idea how coal, oil, or diamonds were made?
NW-Bound
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Overproduction of electricity in the morning and early afternoon, and only in spring.
This summer, CA is facing a threat of electricity outage which may affect 1/10 of all households.
I shared a recent article about it: https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/solar-wind-renewable-energy-92910-4.html#post2768643.
And this: https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/solar-wind-renewable-energy-92910-4.html#post2768646.
I have vacationed several times in both Lake Powell and Lake Mead, although it has been over 30 years since I have been to Powell and 20 years to Mead. That being said, I continually monitor both lakes, since they are so important to the entire South West, and in reality the entire country. Here are a couple of excellent monitoring sites that update daily:
Lake Powell Water Database
Lake Mead Water Database
BTW: years ago, I read an excellent book, "Cadillac Desert", by Marc Reisner. It is about the history, legalities and politics involved in these massive lakes. The book is known as. "The definitive work on the West's water crises." I gave my book away years ago, so recently I purchased a used copy for a few bucks on Amazon... Of course it is available at a wide variety of used book stores as well.
Lake Powell Water Database
Lake Mead Water Database
BTW: years ago, I read an excellent book, "Cadillac Desert", by Marc Reisner. It is about the history, legalities and politics involved in these massive lakes. The book is known as. "The definitive work on the West's water crises." I gave my book away years ago, so recently I purchased a used copy for a few bucks on Amazon... Of course it is available at a wide variety of used book stores as well.
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Mr._Graybeard
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Published in 1986.
Gearhead Jim
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I'm not sure this is a geological perspective, but most people simply don't like to live in cold weather.
Here in the Midwest, we say "20 below keeps the rif-raf out."
Well, sometimes.
NW-Bound
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Water shortage aside, when fossil fuel runs out, it is easier to have enough solar panels to run the ACs in the summer where it's hot than to heat homes in the winter where it's 20 below.
Mother Nature will get you one way or the other.
Sunset
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Yes, Winter is the safe time of the year.
In Chicago it's not Summer Season, it's Shooting Summer Season
Yes, Winter is the safe time of the year.
In Chicago it's not Summer Season, it's Shooting Summer Season
I lived in Old Town back in the late 1970's and it was great. Young & single, good job, and all the perks - restaurants, bars, lakefront, nightlife, and a short L-ride to work in the Loop. Today we winter in Florida, summer in NW Indiana and would not go to Chicago on a bet. Stray bullets, carjackings, homeless, drugs, and taxes. Glad I have the memories of a much better time. But you found a great place to spend their inheritance, and a lot of it!
