Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[explanade]

They were overly ambitious about being all electric by 2030. BEV sales in Europe were only up 16% in Europe last year. IDK if that's anemic. Maybe it is a Mercedes problem. They have struggled to compete and their dealers are seeing large unsold inventories. It seems to be similar to the situation for Ford.

Their EVs are on the higher price bands.

Their lowest-priced EV is the EQB compact SUV, which starts at $52,400 and then the next model starts just under $72k.

Remember, these are starting prices, the typical models are loaded up with 4 or even 5-figure options packages.

https://www.motortrend.com/style/electric/mercedes-benz/

Of course none of them get tax credits.

 

[RetMD21]

Their EVs are on the higher price bands.

Their lowest-priced EV is the EQB compact SUV, which starts at $52,400 and then the next model starts just under $72k.

Remember, these are starting prices, the typical models are loaded up with 4 or even 5-figure options packages.

https://www.motortrend.com/style/electric/mercedes-benz/

I didn't know about the cost with options.

The depreciation of the Porsche EVs hasn't been reassuring.

https://jalopnik.com/porsche-taycan-turbos-have-lost-up-to-100-000-value-in-1851281337

I am not in the market for a Taycan Turbo S but it seems like a used one for $100,000 less is more attractive than an updated new one.

 

[Zathras]

While Mercedes and Ford are letting off the accelerator pedal a bit, other companies are still moving forward with EVs.

They can continue to build ICE vehicles which are more profitable for them in the short term. But they will continue to loose marketshare to EVs.

It's a fine line to walk. As long as they continue R&D into EVs, they should be ok.

 

[Midpack]

Interesting item from Mercedes-Benz about the anemic consumer demand for EVs.

They were overly ambitious about being all electric by 2030. BEV sales in Europe were only up 16% in Europe last year. IDK if that's anemic. Maybe it is a Mercedes problem. They have struggled to compete and their dealers are seeing large unsold inventories. It seems to be similar to the situation for Ford.

Interesting how legacy automakers with poor EV sales tell us EV consumer demand is anemic (nothing but PR spin), while some others like Tesla, Hyundai, BYD, etc. are enjoying strong demand. Of course sales weren’t going to continue at 50% per year forever, but EVs are still the fastest growing segment. EV sales demand has increased a lot in most developed countries, the US is lagging - many Americans still like BIG vehicles. Hybrid sales have also resumed growth that had faltered. Mercedes, Ford and Chevrolet offered EVs with inferior technology & range, poor charging availability/reliability at higher prices than others - that’s their issue, not consumers. Many consumers are still interested in buying compelling EVs, HEvs and PHEvs…

 

[ls99]

Interesting analysis by CNN


https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/25/cars/what-happened-with-electric-vehicle-sales-in-2023/index.html


"Tesla has been slashing prices. Ford just cut the price of its Mustang Mach-E, too, plus it cut back production of its electric pickup. And General Motors is thinking about bringing back plug-in hybrids, possibly taking a step back from GM’s earlier commitment to shifting straight to pure EVs.
And now the EPA is considering slowing down requirements for automakers to sell more electric vehicles, dialing back what had been aggressive plans to move away from gas powered cars and SUVs.
To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

But the EV market has nevertheless become a major disappointment. There is a troubling gap between expectations and reality."

 

[Chuckanut]

Plenty of EVs available at 0% loans

 

[RetMD21]

Interesting link but I'm having trouble with the part in red. Disappointing 40% rise in sales Q4 2023 vs 2022?

Interesting that the Stellantis CEO blames chargers for his company's failure to sell EVs. Fwiw Stellantis is having trouble selling fossil cars too.

If less costly EVs come to market as predicted sales can continue to grow.

Interesting analysis by CNN


https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/25/cars/what-happened-with-electric-vehicle-sales-in-2023/index.html


"Tesla has been slashing prices. Ford just cut the price of its Mustang Mach-E, too, plus it cut back production of its electric pickup. And General Motors is thinking about bringing back plug-in hybrids, possibly taking a step back from GM’s earlier commitment to shifting straight to pure EVs.
And now the EPA is considering slowing down requirements for automakers to sell more electric vehicles, dialing back what had been aggressive plans to move away from gas powered cars and SUVs.
To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

But the EV market has nevertheless become a major disappointment. There is a troubling gap between expectations and reality."

 

[Zathras]

Interesting that the BZ4X and Solterra (basically the same car with different badges) have such different list prices.

 

[Chuckanut]

Interesting that the BZ4X and Solterra (basically the same car with different badges) have such different list prices.

The Subaru "Shares the Love".

 

[Midpack]

But the EV market has nevertheless become a major disappointment. There is a troubling gap between expectations and reality."

How so?

EVs aren’t reaching the low end of the car market, but they’re coming a lot closer now than just a year ago. The Model Y LR went from $66K to $48K over a matter of months last year, plus the $7500 tax credit has resumed so net cost $41.5K (for now). TBH that’s the only reason I bought one.

Tesla and others are working on a $25K EV, but that still appears to be a couple years away, and Teslas preliminary price estimates have been (way) off in the past. BYD has a surprisingly decent model (the Seagull) considering the price at $11.5K but it’s not US legal, and they’re probably years from landing in the US if ever. It’s more of a city or commuter car, not for road trips or high performance - but at $11.5K with 190-252 mile range?

I understand EVs aren’t for everyone…use case and/or personal preferences, no problem.

 

[ls99]

How so?
.

Suggest reading the article quoted, thus would reveal that what is questioned is part of the article writtenn by the CNN author.


Do go on and Have a nice life.

 

[Scrapr]

Article in todays NYT on Chinese electric cars coming to the US/World. Bringing up the possibility of more carmaker bailouts. Perhaps US carmakers cannot pivot fast enough to
electric cars before the Chinese flood our market. A linked article says BYD rolling out a plug in hybrid for $11k.


https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/...e_code=1.Yk0.nf8B.AclMglPrZ9-p&smid=url-share

 

[RetMD21]

Article in todays NYT on Chinese electric cars coming to the US/World. Bringing up the possibility of more carmaker bailouts. Perhaps US carmakers cannot pivot fast enough to
electric cars before the Chinese flood our market. A linked article says BYD rolling out a plug in hybrid for $11k.


https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/...e_code=1.Yk0.nf8B.AclMglPrZ9-p&smid=url-share

Does BYD get eligibility for the tax credit if they go ahead with the planned Mexico factory?

Apple announced internally that they have scrapped the Apple car according to the NYT.

 

[Out of Steam]

Does BYD get eligibility for the tax credit if they go ahead with the planned Mexico factory?

Apple announced internally that they have scrapped the Apple car according to the NYT.

I believe it works that half the tax credit is tied to the manufacturing country, and the other half is tied to the battery source, including the materials used in the battery.

So, under current rules, BYD vehicles assembled in Mexico would likely get half the credit. But I suspect that BYD could undercut prices of legacy carmakers without any tax credit.

 

[Midpack]

Article in todays NYT on Chinese electric cars coming to the US/World. Bringing up the possibility of more carmaker bailouts. Perhaps US carmakers cannot pivot fast enough to
electric cars before the Chinese flood our market. A linked article says BYD rolling out a plug in hybrid for $11k.

BYD has a full EV with a range of 190-252 miles that would cost $11.5K at current exchange rates. It's not US legal, but it's reportedly Eurozone legal, so it could probably be adapted to US regs pretty easily. It's not a road trip or performance car, more of a city/communter car but it has way more bells & whistles than you might expect.

I am not making any predictions but it will be interesting to see if China enters the US market with the same disruptive effect as the Japanese did in the 80's.

 

[Midpack]

Global EV sales continued as expected by us at the beginning of 2023. A total of 14,2 million new Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) and Plug-in Hybrids (PHEV) were delivered during 2023, an increase of +35%. 10 million were pure electric BEVs and 4,2 million were Plug-in Hybrids (PHEV) and Range Extender EVs (EREV).

Media reporting that EV adoption is in reverse is not evident in our monthly tracking. Global deliveries of BEVs and PHEVs increased by 3,66 million units over 2022 and all monthly sales were between 8 % and 52 % higher than in the year previous. 5 months of 2023 witnessed new all-time highs for EV sales, Market share increases were consistent throughout the year. The exception was Germany, Europe's largest EV market, where a series of significant cuts in EV grants lead to s decline in EV sales and market shares. European EV registration were up by a meager +17 % vs 2022; excluding Germany, the increase was +32 %. China EV sales increased by +36 % in 2023 y/y, EV sales in USA and Canada were +46 % higher than the year previous. EV sales outside the aforementioned markets increased by +81 %, albeit from a low base.

https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/

 

[stephenson]

From US perspective, the summary blurb:

"EV deliveries in USA grew by 48 % over 2022 (46 % for USA & Canada combined), having increased 50 % from 2021 to 2022. It appears that the EV grants in the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), available since January 2023, had limited impact on EV adoption. The grants require EV production within the USMCA (fmr NAFTA) and battery material sourcing from Free Trade Agreement partners (China is not). Battery supply constraints were a frequent occurrence among domestic OEM during 2023."

From the curve, it does look like it is flattening (normally expect curves to "kick over" at some point, but then again, that same curve, once a bit of time passes, may kick back up, too ) ... government's task is to increase good curves and decrease bad ones, right ?

 

[joesxm3]

I thought I saw a post on X or somewhere with the BYD CEO saying that they have no plans to enter the US market because the regulations are too complicated.

However, that does not mean that they won't be sticking it to the US car companies in the Chinese and European markets.

 

[Fermion]

Saw that Elon wants his new Tesla/SpaceX roadster to do 0 to 60 in under 1 second.

According to ChatGPT, that is nearly 3G you would experience.

 

[ERD50]

Saw that Elon wants his new Tesla/SpaceX roadster to do 0 to 60 in under 1 second.

According to ChatGPT, that is nearly 3G you would experience.

Unless that is rocket/jet powered, it's going to take some impressive tires/traction to achieve that. Batteries/motors are capable of tremendous power/torque, but w/o traction, the car doesn't move.

IIRC, the "Engineering Explained" guy on youtube has done some videos where he goes through the calculations of weight and traction to determine the maximum acceleration that could be achieved with a certain set of tires and vehicle weight. It can be the limiting factor, especially at sub 3 second times.

Oh, BTW, did you know that most reported 0-60 times are *NOT* 0-60 times? There's some sort of "after 1 foot of travel" start time, which eliminates that pesky "get this mass moving" impact.

-ERD50

 

[Fermion]

My guess is it would have some sort of rocket assist, since it is a Tesla/SpaceX hybrid car.

The neat thing about that is it would greatly prevent tailgaters.

 

[ncbill]

BYD has a full EV with a range of 190-252 miles that would cost $11.5K at current exchange rates. It's not US legal, but it's reportedly Eurozone legal, so it could probably be adapted to US regs pretty easily. It's not a road trip or performance car, more of a city/communter car but it has way more bells & whistles than you might expect.

I am not making any predictions but it will be interesting to see if China enters the US market with the same disruptive effect as the Japanese did in the 80's.

just keep in mind 252 miles on the test cycle China uses is only about 160 miles EPA.

 

[explanade]

One issue with EVs from American manufacturers is that they chose to use their limited battery production on bigger, more expensive models.

For instance, one of the first hyped model was a revived Hummer EV with enough battery capacity for 3 EVs with 250 mile ranges. I think starting price was around $100k.

Never seen one on the road and imagine it didn't sell in big numbers.

F-150 Lightning when first revealed touted a $40k starting price. I don't think they've sold any at anywhere near that price.

It's entirely possible that buyers just haven't liked the EVs from Detroit so far.

FOr instance, it appears the Honda Prologue EV is getting generally better reviews than the Chevy Blazer EV, which are both built on Ultium, maybe even assembled at the same factories.

 

[Midpack]

I thought I saw a post on X or somewhere with the BYD CEO saying that they have no plans to enter the US market because the regulations are too complicated.

However, that does not mean that they won't be sticking it to the US car companies in the Chinese and European markets.

Certainly remains to be seen, and I assume the US will throw up barriers, but see below. I can't imagine they'd invest in Mexico without any interest in the US ultimately? Regs in European markets aren't uncomplicated...

Feb 14 (Reuters) - China's BYD Co Ltd will set up a new electric vehicle (EV) factory in Mexico, Nikkei reported on Wednesday, citing the company's Mexico head, as the EV maker aims to establish an export hub to the United States.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-vehicle-plant-mexico-says-nikkei-2024-02-13/

 

[explanade]

I was in Thailand and happened to walk by a BYD dealer.

I have photos somewhere that I took.

Cars were tiny and the external plastics looked cheap.

Saw a few BYDs also being driven on the streets.

Apparently in Europe, they'd be priced at least 50% more than they are in China, after they account for maybe safety compliance and tariffs.

So they may be selling well in China vs. Tesla but doesn't seem to be quite in the same class. Maybe they have more expensive models that they don't export to markets like Thailand.