Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[joesxm3]

Maybe you guys have had enough. We don't want porky coming do we?

 

[ncbill]

Please, no!

So to get back on track when will we see solid-state batteries in production EVs here in the USA?

I'm looking forward to that but still expect it more in the 2030+ timeline.

 

[joesxm3]

I don't know much about batteries but sandy Monroe at the cybertruck event yesterday seemed to me to be saying that the 4680 in the cyber truck was basically a solid state battery even though they don't call it that. Something about no fluid and no nasty chemicals to suck out while making the battery.

I may have misunderstood.

 

[aja8888]

I don't know much about batteries but sandy Monroe at the cybertruck event yesterday seemed to me to be saying that the 4680 in the cyber truck was basically a solid state battery even though they don't call it that. Something about no fluid and no nasty chemicals to suck out while making the battery.

I may have misunderstood.

I guess it depends on how you define "solid state". I recall when I built a "solid state" stereo which had no vacuum tubes. That was when circuit boards were new things. I guess I am dating myself!

 

[folivier]

That's interesting for the CT to have available additional range. Wonder if the extra battery pack is removable? That would be nice if you could rent it for an extended road trip.
What would be really nice would be an SUV made from the CT.

 

[audreyh1]

I have to admit I got a kick out of the Cybertruck drag racing the Porsche 911 while it was towing another Porsche 911, ha ha.

 

[folivier]

But is all that power and acceleration necessary? Would an EV have better range if the drivetrain were designed to have similar power and acceleration as an equivalent ICE?
Just wondering. I don't need or want an EV that is that fast. Too tempting.

 

[aja8888]

But is all that power and acceleration necessary? Would an EV have better range if the drivetrain were designed to have similar power and acceleration as an equivalent ICE?
Just wondering. I don't need or want an EV that is that fast. Too tempting.

That's why I like my 2023 Bolt. Only a bit over 200 HP, front wheel drive, small SUV, around 250 miles of range, lots of back seat space, adequate cargo area, all the safety features, etc.

A nice, easy to use, EV with adequate capabilities. And the price was right.

 

[audreyh1]

But is all that power and acceleration necessary? Would an EV have better range if the drivetrain were designed to have similar power and acceleration as an equivalent ICE?
Just wondering. I don't need or want an EV that is that fast. Too tempting.

No. It’s simply a side effect. The car has to be very aerodynamic and overall efficient to be energy efficient. And all that power is in the battery, ready to be released at a touch. Putting anything in the way will reduce range.

A smart driver doesn’t waste that energy unnecessarily. It’s well known in an EV that you can increase your range by driving slower.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

No. It’s simply a side effect. The car has to be very aerodynamic and overall efficient to be energy efficient. And all that power is in the battery, ready to be released at a touch. Putting anything in the way will reduce range.

A smart driver doesn’t waste that energy unnecessarily. It’s well known in an EV that you can increase your range by driving slower.

Right. I keep mine in Eco mode, and starting from a stop it still feels very slow, but while I do "overrule" it occasionally, I'm trying to let it do its thing and get used to that. I did put it in Sport mode and floor it once, and the g forces were impressive!

 

[joesxm3]

The range extender seems to be removable per some YouTube guys.

 

[audreyh1]

Right. I keep mine in Eco mode, and starting from a stop it still feels very slow, but while I do "overrule" it occasionally, I'm trying to let it do its thing and get used to that. I did put it in Sport mode and floor it once, and the g forces were impressive!

I still drive in chill mode. It works well for me and feels comfortable. All I care about is having the acceleration as needed to merge or pass and it’s very responsive for that.

My Tesla has 670 horsepower, but I’ve never floored it.

 

[audreyh1]

The range extender seems to be removable per some YouTube guys.

That’s my understanding.

 

[joesxm3]

I don't drag race my model Y but there is one entrance ramp to a local highway that is long and straight.

If there are no other cars I punch it and it feels like I am being catapulted off of an aircraft carrier.

 

[RetMD21]

The range extender is a battery that can be installed against the cab in the bed.

That seems like a nice feature. I don't need 500 miles of range since I can plug in 95% of nights. I would rather be slightly inconvenienced during the occasional long trip rather than carry around extra unneeded battery.

I noticed that in addition to scaling back production and offering large incentives Ford seems to have a lot of Lightnings in stock. Seven at the smallish dealer near me. It will be interesting to see how many of those Cybertruck reservations turn into sales.

 

[Midpack]

That's interesting for the CT to have available additional range. Wonder if the extra battery pack is removable? That would be nice if you could rent it for an extended road trip.
What would be really nice would be an SUV made from the CT.

From the YT videos I saw the range extender battery isn't really owner removable, it would be very heavy.

Having that option is probably a good idea, instead of what they originally advertised for the top of the line tro-motor variant originally shown with a 500 mile range. The trip-motor is $100K with 320 miles of range, most people won't need or want to pay another $16K for the range extender - this way buyers have the option if they need it for frequent long trips, or frequently towing/carrying large loads.

 

[Midpack]

But is all that power and acceleration necessary? Would an EV have better range if the drivetrain were designed to have similar power and acceleration as an equivalent ICE?
Just wondering. I don't need or want an EV that is that fast. Too tempting.

There are three models, single motor (2025), dual motor and triple motor - so you can have a slower accelerating model if you want. Not everyone is going to want to spring for a tri-motor at $100K, $116K with a range extender.

 

[joesxm3]

One point of the range extender is it lets the AWD qualify for the tax incentive.

 

[Midpack]

One point of the range extender is it lets the AWD qualify for the tax incentive.

How would that be? The CT AWD is $68.9K and the range extender is estimated to add $16K which totals just under $85K. There are no tax credits for any vans, SUVs or pickup trucks over $80K.

The tri-motor is the only variant that was ever supposed to have 500 miles of range. The dual motor AWD was shown with 300 miles of range from 2019 and thereafter.

 

[joesxm3]

You buy the range extender after you buy the CT. Same as you do with FSD on M3.

 

[ken830]

I don't know much about batteries but sandy Monroe at the cybertruck event yesterday seemed to me to be saying that the 4680 in the cyber truck was basically a solid state battery even though they don't call it that. Something about no fluid and no nasty chemicals to suck out while making the battery.

I may have misunderstood.

He's referring to the DBE (dry battery electrode) process that is a dry manufacturing process versus using a slurry that is then dried. This saves money in the manufacturing process. Tesla acquired Maxwell Technologies a few years ago who had started to develop this process and relevant patents. Tesla then spent a ton of time and resources to develop it further to bring it to volume production. Most of that initial work was done at their pilot line at the Kato Road facilities here in the Bay Area. It proved to be much more challenging than first expected.

 

[ken830]

But is all that power and acceleration necessary? Would an EV have better range if the drivetrain were designed to have similar power and acceleration as an equivalent ICE?
Just wondering. I don't need or want an EV that is that fast. Too tempting.

As audreyh1 said, great performance (and most of the advantages of EVs) is just a "side-effect". To get more range, you need more to store more energy, which means more cells in parallel, which means you can release energy more rapidly (more power), which gives you more performance. Something counter-intuitive: When Tesla introduced the dual-motor AWD version of the Model S, they not only increased the performance (power, acceleration, traction, etc. and introduced the world to "Insane Mode") but also "accidentally" increased the efficiency and range... although the second motor added some weight, Tesla chose a higher gear ratio for the second motor and shifted the efficiency curve to favor higher speeds. This "stacking" of both curves (having one motor that is more efficient at lower speeds and another more efficient at higher speed) just broadened the overall efficiency curve of the vehicle.. This is why Consumer Reports at the time said it "broke" their grading system. Because the P85 was already nearly perfect and the grading system couldn't handle the P85D, a car that improved performance without sacrificing efficiency (actually improved efficiency).

https://www.consumerreports.org/vid...la-p85d-broke-consumer-reports-rating-system/ (This was the Consumer Reports before they figured out that negative Tesla coverage created more clicks than positive ones)

 

[Midpack]

Most informative Cybertruck review I’ve found so far.

 

[ERD50]

Most informative Cybertruck review I’ve found so far.

....

I was interested, and clicked, but I see that's the same guy that you said gave a great review on the Tesla solar roof tiles - but he had massive, obvious, significant errors in his payback numbers, got called on it by many others in the comments, but never owned up to the errors.

So just a caveat for others, but I'm not investing 40 minutes in any review from this guy. Obviously, others can do as they see fit, but you've been warned.

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

I was interested, and clicked, but I see that's the same guy that you said gave a great review on the Tesla solar roof tiles - but he had massive, obvious, significant errors in his payback numbers, got called on it by many others in the comments, but never owned up to the errors.

So just a caveat for others, but I'm not investing 40 minutes in any review from this guy. Obviously, others can do as they see fit, but you've been warned.

Your choice. I’d recommend others give the video a try if you want to know more about the Cybertruck now. If not, there will be other sources very soon.

Marques Brownlee has been in the tech space since 2009. “As of August 2023, he has more than 20 million subscribers across all channels and 3.83 billion total video views. Vic Gundotra, a former senior vice president of Google, called Brownlee "the best technology reviewer on the planet right now". At the 10th Shorty Awards in 2019, he was named "Creator of the Decade" The former name of his YouTube channel is a concatenation of MKB (Brownlee's initials) and HD (for high definition).”

Amid the antics and inanity of much of YouTube, Brownlee's content stands out for its rigor and trustworthiness. Leaders should take note: At a time when misinformation proliferates, communications experts say businesses should "raise the integrity" of their own content by making sure it is factual and based on sound science or reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marques_Brownlee

https://www.inc.com/stephanie-mehta/marques-brownlee-isnt-your-average-youtuber.html

While you didn’t like his solar video, it got many very good reviews as well, for what it was - an order of magnitude experience, not an academic paper. No tech reviewer is perfect, too bad you watched one of his videos and didn’t like it. I know you have a very high opinion of your POV, and that you’ll insist your 100% objective. About 20 million people disagree with you on MKBHD…

We’ve both stated our positions, we disagree - I for one won’t debate it further with you.