lazygood4nothinbum
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Messages
- 3,895
just back from roadtrip scouting downsized housing in daytona and tampa, i also checked out port charlotte and punta gorda, ground zero of the bubble burst.
first i'll get the last part of my trip out of the way. punta gorda and port charlotte, how to describe: you know that space between blah and completely uninteresting? i wasn't inspired to take a single photo of this soggy white bread world.
finding my way around a moat, i pulled a realtor's brochure from its box in front of a house for sale. the entire area poorly drains. on a canal with fixed bridges sits 121 nw carlisle ave port charlotte fl. its 33952 zip code sports 540 preforeclosures & 121 reo's. i don't have stats on the entire zip code but for the area around this house, realtor.com shows all of one (1) sale in 2008. the moated house is asking $258,900 yet it sold in 2004 for $174,800 and in 2002 for $130,000. the brochure brags “partially updated” with “newer windows” and doors, oh my!
a nearby sale from dec 07 brought $70,400 on a house which sold for $97,500 in 2003 & for $48,000 in 2002, down 28% from 03 to 07. i do not understand why this area managed to rival south florida prices even during the bubble. their nearest decent airport is two hours away in tampa. crossing this area off my downsize list.
back to the subject at hand. tampa.
i like tampa. always did. lived there for two years back in college days.
the heights are where the gays moved when they could no longer afford hyde park. here's the lazy theory of historic preservation. first an area develops just outside of a city as a weathy suburb for business owners who look for cheap labor. they hire black people who eventually migrate out from the city. the black people settle near white areas which leads to white flight. not having the money for upkeep, these areas tend to get a bit run down. but--and here's the good part--they don't redevelop for years. rather than being “improved upon”, the moldings, stair cases, the fabulous front porches remain intact. no one had money to make changes. no one had money to trim the trees and so the streets are lined by old live oaks. no one had money to pave and so the original pavers line the streets. the area is preserved by poverty.
so the first phase of a historic district is monied white people who build the original houses. phase two is poverty stricken black people who hold onto the properties until they are properly aged. for the redevelopment phase, send in the gays.
why gays? because we love antiquing. we long for a sense of stability, a sense of history; even if not our own, at least it is one filled with oppression to which we relate. we don't care that we are living in a “bad” school district. we're not worried about the children that we have not bred being beat up by the black neighbor's kids. we love diversity; it helps camouflage us.
but after we renovate areas like hyde park, the white str8s move in. they bring their children and their better schools and their higher taxes. they make it too expensive for the rest of the gays to complete settlement and so our community cashes out & splits off. divided & moved by economy and a sense of place, less monied, more adventurous gays move into even darker territory, which we paint and landscape and call it home.
so this is where the heights currently stand. between black and white, between str8 & gay, between history preserved and homes renovated. part war zone, part study of transition. city-data.com shows the transition over time from black to white. in 33602, more blacks than whites moved into the area up through 1994 but then 1995 through 2000 immigration of whites outnumbered blacks so that now the area which was mostly black is about 50/50. the color war is green and reflected in the housing prices which is all magnified by the bubble & its burst as illustrated below.
the heights consist of tampa heights, riverside heights & seminole heights, the gayest (read: the first & most renovated) area being riverside, followed by seminole with tampa heights first on its way to re-resettlement.
here are the heights north to south (towards downtown):
seminole (actually i think this is south seminole)
community pride is frequently displayed throughout these districts.
creativity abounds
lovely canopied streets
320 w wilder is a 3/2, 1479-square-foot (sq ft or sf for future reference) circa 1925 home on 100 x 116 ft lot asking $229,500; just value (county's appraised market value) $222,566; prior sales:1997 $75,000; 1994 $45,000.
here's the kicker and evidence of the war zone described above. there were only 4 sales near this home in 2008, three follow:
313 wilder, 1154 sf circa 1928: 2008 $175,800; 2002 $90,800
4902 highland ave, 832 sf circa 1926: 2004 $105,000; 2007 $110,000; 2008 $68,000 (latest sale down 39%)
419 louisiana ave, 2136 sf circa 1951: 2005 $245,000; 2008 $96,000 (latest sale down 60%)
did someone mention war zone?
here is a view from seminole heights towards downtown
and found this at a local shop in the area, thought you might appreciate this travelall...
next south is riverside heights
this one at 816 virginia ave is a 1000 sf 2/1 with wood & terrazzo floors and "newer" cabinets. the realtor wanted to know if $184,900 is in my price range. the county just value is $155,939. i don't quickly find prior sales prices on this house.
but in the immediate area the county shows one 2008 sale and realtor.com shows that one plus 3 others in 2008 as follows:
1012 west ohio 1416 sf circa 1948: 2008 $141,600; 2006 $165,000 (down 15%); 1999 $65,000.
810 ohio 832 sf circa 1946: 2008 $25,000; 1990 $25,000 (yes, i copied that correctly)
709 peninsular 1783 sf circa 1926: 2008 $134,000; 2005 $242,000 (down 45% war zone); 2004 $100,000 (note: during this time the only permitted features are some electric and a wood deck adding up to under $3k in improvements).
3714 clearfield 1590 sf circa 1948: 2008 $52,000; 2006 $105,000; 2005 $125,000. that's down 59% from peak so i'm renaming the street from clearfield to battlefield.
still, there is a lot of charm to be had here and the houses are a bit more substantial than in seminole.
and there is a lovely park along the hillsborough river for residents to enjoy
proximity to the city across the river in river heights area
southern most of the heights, bordering ybor city and downtown tampa is tampa heights. this is a national historic district, the first suburb of the city of tampa. it is also the last to develop and lies along a series of major highways and highway ramps. there are some grand houses here, some shacks and lots of inbetween.
i did similar studies here on a house with brochure as well as three in its area. (sorry but don't have its picture.)
311 e ross ave asking $224,00; just value $155,377; sold 2003 $128,500; sold 1999 $88,000; sold 1996 $76,300. these people are still living in the bubble.
only one house sold in this area in 2008 so follows are that plus three from 2007.
409 amelia ave 2008 $75,000 2002 $135,000 down 45%
407 frances ave 2007 $75,000 2006 $175,000 down 58%
408 columbus dr 2007 $210,000 2006 $198,000 (someone's gonna regret that because...)
704 columbus dr 2007 $124,900 2006 $254,000 down 51% war zone.
but even in war there can be beauty
http://centraltampa2.tbo.com/content/2008/may/06/commission-consider-fire-station-plans/?news
those highways i mentioned might be your next door neighbor
finally on our trip to search out areas in which to downsize we stop for lunch at the crepe shoppe in ybor city as aforementioned by rich on another thread. but they are closed on monday. bummer. so i found a pizza & salad at the counter of a restaurant across the street, where i chatted with a nice guy who will never retire, a construction super, aged late 60s, who drives every day from sarasota in his huge chevy avalanche.
the lazymobile parked outside the crepe shop which is closed on mondays
cigar cafe
cigar smokers
building detail
street scenes
along the sidewalks are these puffs of smoke filled with writings. at least that's what i think they are. i don't know for sure but theyremind me of los lectores. the readers. these where men hired to read novels and newspapers to the cigar workers in the factors so that the workers would know the news of the world. this was an educated working society.
i do not know from where this might have been excerpt but it says: "sitting on the edge of the bathtub and watching him shave was f. poaheco (sorry, trouble reading name)...his two-sided gillette blue razor with great relief. j.b. never let a barber shave him again."
daytona portion of this field trip to follow on a separate thread.
first i'll get the last part of my trip out of the way. punta gorda and port charlotte, how to describe: you know that space between blah and completely uninteresting? i wasn't inspired to take a single photo of this soggy white bread world.
finding my way around a moat, i pulled a realtor's brochure from its box in front of a house for sale. the entire area poorly drains. on a canal with fixed bridges sits 121 nw carlisle ave port charlotte fl. its 33952 zip code sports 540 preforeclosures & 121 reo's. i don't have stats on the entire zip code but for the area around this house, realtor.com shows all of one (1) sale in 2008. the moated house is asking $258,900 yet it sold in 2004 for $174,800 and in 2002 for $130,000. the brochure brags “partially updated” with “newer windows” and doors, oh my!
a nearby sale from dec 07 brought $70,400 on a house which sold for $97,500 in 2003 & for $48,000 in 2002, down 28% from 03 to 07. i do not understand why this area managed to rival south florida prices even during the bubble. their nearest decent airport is two hours away in tampa. crossing this area off my downsize list.
back to the subject at hand. tampa.
i like tampa. always did. lived there for two years back in college days.
the heights are where the gays moved when they could no longer afford hyde park. here's the lazy theory of historic preservation. first an area develops just outside of a city as a weathy suburb for business owners who look for cheap labor. they hire black people who eventually migrate out from the city. the black people settle near white areas which leads to white flight. not having the money for upkeep, these areas tend to get a bit run down. but--and here's the good part--they don't redevelop for years. rather than being “improved upon”, the moldings, stair cases, the fabulous front porches remain intact. no one had money to make changes. no one had money to trim the trees and so the streets are lined by old live oaks. no one had money to pave and so the original pavers line the streets. the area is preserved by poverty.
so the first phase of a historic district is monied white people who build the original houses. phase two is poverty stricken black people who hold onto the properties until they are properly aged. for the redevelopment phase, send in the gays.
why gays? because we love antiquing. we long for a sense of stability, a sense of history; even if not our own, at least it is one filled with oppression to which we relate. we don't care that we are living in a “bad” school district. we're not worried about the children that we have not bred being beat up by the black neighbor's kids. we love diversity; it helps camouflage us.
but after we renovate areas like hyde park, the white str8s move in. they bring their children and their better schools and their higher taxes. they make it too expensive for the rest of the gays to complete settlement and so our community cashes out & splits off. divided & moved by economy and a sense of place, less monied, more adventurous gays move into even darker territory, which we paint and landscape and call it home.
so this is where the heights currently stand. between black and white, between str8 & gay, between history preserved and homes renovated. part war zone, part study of transition. city-data.com shows the transition over time from black to white. in 33602, more blacks than whites moved into the area up through 1994 but then 1995 through 2000 immigration of whites outnumbered blacks so that now the area which was mostly black is about 50/50. the color war is green and reflected in the housing prices which is all magnified by the bubble & its burst as illustrated below.
the heights consist of tampa heights, riverside heights & seminole heights, the gayest (read: the first & most renovated) area being riverside, followed by seminole with tampa heights first on its way to re-resettlement.
here are the heights north to south (towards downtown):
seminole (actually i think this is south seminole)
community pride is frequently displayed throughout these districts.
creativity abounds
lovely canopied streets
320 w wilder is a 3/2, 1479-square-foot (sq ft or sf for future reference) circa 1925 home on 100 x 116 ft lot asking $229,500; just value (county's appraised market value) $222,566; prior sales:1997 $75,000; 1994 $45,000.
here's the kicker and evidence of the war zone described above. there were only 4 sales near this home in 2008, three follow:
313 wilder, 1154 sf circa 1928: 2008 $175,800; 2002 $90,800
4902 highland ave, 832 sf circa 1926: 2004 $105,000; 2007 $110,000; 2008 $68,000 (latest sale down 39%)
419 louisiana ave, 2136 sf circa 1951: 2005 $245,000; 2008 $96,000 (latest sale down 60%)
did someone mention war zone?
here is a view from seminole heights towards downtown
and found this at a local shop in the area, thought you might appreciate this travelall...
next south is riverside heights
this one at 816 virginia ave is a 1000 sf 2/1 with wood & terrazzo floors and "newer" cabinets. the realtor wanted to know if $184,900 is in my price range. the county just value is $155,939. i don't quickly find prior sales prices on this house.
but in the immediate area the county shows one 2008 sale and realtor.com shows that one plus 3 others in 2008 as follows:
1012 west ohio 1416 sf circa 1948: 2008 $141,600; 2006 $165,000 (down 15%); 1999 $65,000.
810 ohio 832 sf circa 1946: 2008 $25,000; 1990 $25,000 (yes, i copied that correctly)
709 peninsular 1783 sf circa 1926: 2008 $134,000; 2005 $242,000 (down 45% war zone); 2004 $100,000 (note: during this time the only permitted features are some electric and a wood deck adding up to under $3k in improvements).
3714 clearfield 1590 sf circa 1948: 2008 $52,000; 2006 $105,000; 2005 $125,000. that's down 59% from peak so i'm renaming the street from clearfield to battlefield.
still, there is a lot of charm to be had here and the houses are a bit more substantial than in seminole.
and there is a lovely park along the hillsborough river for residents to enjoy
proximity to the city across the river in river heights area
southern most of the heights, bordering ybor city and downtown tampa is tampa heights. this is a national historic district, the first suburb of the city of tampa. it is also the last to develop and lies along a series of major highways and highway ramps. there are some grand houses here, some shacks and lots of inbetween.
i did similar studies here on a house with brochure as well as three in its area. (sorry but don't have its picture.)
311 e ross ave asking $224,00; just value $155,377; sold 2003 $128,500; sold 1999 $88,000; sold 1996 $76,300. these people are still living in the bubble.
only one house sold in this area in 2008 so follows are that plus three from 2007.
409 amelia ave 2008 $75,000 2002 $135,000 down 45%
407 frances ave 2007 $75,000 2006 $175,000 down 58%
408 columbus dr 2007 $210,000 2006 $198,000 (someone's gonna regret that because...)
704 columbus dr 2007 $124,900 2006 $254,000 down 51% war zone.
but even in war there can be beauty
http://centraltampa2.tbo.com/content/2008/may/06/commission-consider-fire-station-plans/?news
those highways i mentioned might be your next door neighbor
finally on our trip to search out areas in which to downsize we stop for lunch at the crepe shoppe in ybor city as aforementioned by rich on another thread. but they are closed on monday. bummer. so i found a pizza & salad at the counter of a restaurant across the street, where i chatted with a nice guy who will never retire, a construction super, aged late 60s, who drives every day from sarasota in his huge chevy avalanche.
the lazymobile parked outside the crepe shop which is closed on mondays
cigar cafe
cigar smokers
building detail
street scenes
along the sidewalks are these puffs of smoke filled with writings. at least that's what i think they are. i don't know for sure but theyremind me of los lectores. the readers. these where men hired to read novels and newspapers to the cigar workers in the factors so that the workers would know the news of the world. this was an educated working society.
i do not know from where this might have been excerpt but it says: "sitting on the edge of the bathtub and watching him shave was f. poaheco (sorry, trouble reading name)...his two-sided gillette blue razor with great relief. j.b. never let a barber shave him again."
daytona portion of this field trip to follow on a separate thread.
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