Star Trek

[harllee]

I don't have Paramount+, so probably not getting SNW for a long time, but I am curious about the strong female characters - are they strong in different ways? Usually when a "strong female character" is mentioned, it means soley "fierce female warrior," that is some female who is more kick-ass than the males, and that's about all that goes into it.

One reason I liked Voyager was Janeway, who was one of the "strongest female characters" I ever saw portrayed on television. I thought she had a feminine style of leadership, but never figured it out entirely - she WASN'T a strong physical fighter. She wasn't maternal. She wasn't girlfriendy (her friendship with Tuvok was unique in that it wasn't with her exec or her doctor or some older male father figure, and it was low key rather than heart to heart, and Platonic in the truest sense. She wasn't wisecracking. She wasn't exuding unattainable beauty. She made mistakes, and you could see her wrestle with them throughout the series, but in varying ways, sometimes with people and sometimes by herself. She came across mostly as a leader who was also a serious scientist (not the usual computer-like female intellectual).

"Computer-like female intellectual" was how Number One came across originally. Writers in the 60s simply could not write a role for a woman who was serious, not particularly emotional, and intellectual. I feared that when it was mentioned that Number One was genetically enhanced, it meant that once again the writers couldn't imagine such a woman without making her artificial or a freak. I hope that isn't the case with SNW!

I too really like Captain Janeway. She was a strong leader. The Star Trek character that I have seen that is closet to Janeway is Bernham on Discovery. You should give Paramount Plus a try. I think you can get a free trail for a week or two. After that it is only about $10 per month.

 

[JoeWras]

I too really like Captain Janeway. She was a strong leader. The Star Trek character that I have seen that is closet to Janeway is Bernham on Discovery. You should give Paramount Plus a try. I think you can get a free trail for a week or two. After that it is only about $10 per month.

Speaking of which... I still have to watch Voyager. I liked Kate Mulgrew in the small roles I saw her play before Star Trek.

And I've heard that Janeway has a thing for coffee. I'm hoping we find Pike's quirk soon, and it better be more than the hair (speaking as a bald guy).

Kirk: women
Picard: not a fan of kids ("Shut up, Wesley!")
DS9: (someone tell me, I still need to watch!)
Janeway: coffee
Archer: water polo
Burnham: I'm still trying to figure it out
Pike: ?

 

[Qs Laptop]

And I've heard that Janeway has a thing for coffee. I'm hoping we find Pike's quirk soon, and it better be more than the hair (speaking as a bald guy).

DS9: (someone tell me, I still need to watch!)

DS9: Captain Benjamin Sisko was a big baseball fan. Had a baseball on his desk in his office.

Baseball figured into a story in the last(?) season that was kind of embarrassingly bad, IMO.

There was also a good subplot in a different episode that involved baseball cards.

 

[Pellice]

Speaking of which... I still have to watch Voyager. I liked Kate Mulgrew in the small roles I saw her play before Star Trek.

And I've heard that Janeway has a thing for coffee. I'm hoping we find Pike's quirk soon, and it better be more than the hair (speaking as a bald guy).

Kirk: women
Picard: not a fan of kids ("Shut up, Wesley!")
DS9: (someone tell me, I still need to watch!)
Janeway: coffee
Archer: water polo
Burnham: I'm still trying to figure it out
Pike: ?

Can tell you DS9 - Sisko: baseball

DS9 is worth watching. Sisko wasn't a favorite captain of mine, but the other characters really grew on me. You start thinking that the Ferengi are hopeless jerks, but Quark made some good points over the years (although unfortunately the writers couldn't maintain the "otherness" of the Ferengi towards the end). And Garak was simply the best character to come out of Trek, imho. In fact, the whole Cardassian group, with their focus on clever wordplay mixed with deceitfulness - they were fun villains.

 

[harllee]

DS9: Captain Benjamin Sisko was a big baseball fan. Had a baseball on his desk in his office.

Baseball figured into a story in the last(?) season that was kind of embarrassingly bad, IMO.

There was also a good subplot in a different episode that involved baseball cards.

Can't remember which season but there was an episode on Deep Space Nine where the cast of Deep Space Nine (who are pretty awful at baseball) play a baseball game against a bunch of "superior" Vulcans. Great episode.

 

[Qs Laptop]

DS9 is worth watching. Sisko wasn't a favorite captain of mine, but the other characters really grew on me.

DS9 is essential viewing for Star Trek fans. I didn't watch it during its original run. Many years later I watched a couple of the episodes on the "10 Best DS9 Episodes" list and I thought they were pretty good. Finally, a couple years ago I watched the whole thing on Paramount Plus.

I liked DS9 better than any other series except TOS and perhaps TNG. DS9 was consistently good, whereas TNG had many standout episodes but also a lot of stinkers.

The overarching plot line of the Bajoran religion and the prophecies about the Emissary was a master stroke idea. I loved the tension between science and religion, and how either one could be used to explain cause and effect.

You start thinking that the Ferengi are hopeless jerks, but Quark made some good points over the years (although unfortunately the writers couldn't maintain the "otherness" of the Ferengi towards the end).

Oddly I liked Quark, his brother Rom and nephew Nog as characters, but there wasn't a single Ferengi-centered episode that I liked, except perhaps the Roswell one.

And Garak was simply the best character to come out of Trek, imho. In fact, the whole Cardassian group, with their focus on clever wordplay mixed with deceitfulness - they were fun villains.

Garak is an outstanding character. Nuanced, unpredictable, refined, competent. Really liked Garak.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Can't remember which season but there was an episode on Deep Space Nine where the cast of Deep Space Nine (who are pretty awful at baseball) play a baseball game against a bunch of "superior" Vulcans. Great episode.

Well...our opinions vary on this one. As a big baseball fan, and a youth baseball coach, this episode had many cringeworthy moments. I did like some of the scenes where the DS9 crew was learning the rules of baseball--what is the infield fly rule, again?--but the game itself, and its resolution, was a terrible 20 minutes of TV for me.

 

[JoeWras]

Well...our opinions vary on this one. As a big baseball fan, and a youth baseball coach, this episode had many cringeworthy moments. I did like some of the scenes where the DS9 crew was learning the rules of baseball--what is the infield fly rule, again?--but the game itself, and its resolution, was a terrible 20 minutes of TV for me.

I don't mean to go too far off track... I can see how this can be done well or poorly. I'll look forward to it when I get there.

When I interned at an international company in the 80s, we had a few folks from England join our team. They played rounders and cricket. It was a hilarious fiasco. The rounders rules are close, but far enough to totally screw everything up.

Sadly, in recent years I aged out of trying cricket with a bunch of co-workers. My body just wasn't ready for it. I mean, they were really good too. The local area now supports professional cricket, so there are good players about. It would have been fun to have the tables turned.

 

[ncbill]

DS9 is essential viewing for Star Trek fans. I didn't watch it during its original run. Many years later I watched a couple of the episodes on the "10 Best DS9 Episodes" list and I thought they were pretty good. Finally, a couple years ago I watched the whole thing on Paramount Plus.

I liked DS9 better than any other series except TOS and perhaps TNG. DS9 was consistently good, whereas TNG had many standout episodes but also a lot of stinkers.

The overarching plot line of the Bajoran religion and the prophecies about the Emissary was a master stroke idea. I loved the tension between science and religion, and how either one could be used to explain cause and effect.

Oddly I liked Quark, his brother Rom and nephew Nog as characters, but there wasn't a single Ferengi-centered episode that I liked, except perhaps the Roswell one.

Garak is an outstanding character. Nuanced, unpredictable, refined, competent. Really liked Garak.

Don't forget the "Dominian War" story arc...there are some strong, but dark episodes there, including a couple concerning Nog.

("The Siege of AR-558" & "It's Only a Paper Moon")

RIP, Aron Eisenberg (Nog) 6 January 1969 – 21 September 2019.

 

[Pellice]

Don't forget the "Dominian War" story arc...there are some strong, but dark episodes there, including a couple concerning Nog.

("The Siege of AR-558" & "It's Only a Paper Moon")

RIP, Aron Eisenberg (Nog) 6 January 1969 – 21 September 2019.

I thought the whole Dominion War story arc was well constructed - not a hint in the early seasons, but gradually comes into view and intersects with Odo's story. It was not a mystery story, although there were unknowns at first, that gradually and logically diminished (rather than increased).

And that storyline as well dealt with religion in an interesting way - the Dominion were regarded as gods by their two races of followers. (Weyoun the Vorta was another brilliant character). So we had two sets of less-than-omnipotent gods featured in this series, who were engaged by the Federation in interesting ways and occasionally needed help themselves. I thought that was more believably presented than, say, Q, who was a GREAT character and I liked most of his episodes, but the whole Q continuum of ominpotent aliens was inconsistently and not very believably presented.

 

[harllee]

I hate the Q character--I was so disappointed to see hm show up in a big way in Picard. The Q character is so irritating (I guess that is intentional) and is such a misogynist. There was an awful episode in Voyager where he was trying to get Captain Janeway to have his baby. I felt like he was going to rape her at any minute. A character with no redeeming attributes.

 

[Qs Laptop]

I hate the Q character--I was so disappointed to see hm show up in a big way in Picard. The Q character is so irritating (I guess that is intentional) and is such a misogynist. There was an awful episode in Voyager where he was trying to get Captain Janeway to have his baby. I felt like he was going to rape her at any minute. A character with no redeeming attributes.

I can't stand Q, not only for the reasons you listed regarding Captain Janeway, but also because he's such a lazy excuse for a writer to come up with a story. Powerful god-like entity that can do whatever he wants teases humans. It's a cliche.

Another complaint I have, especially with TNG, is the overuse of the holodeck. Another writer's crutch, IMO. Anything can happen and there is scant consequences.

 

[Chuckanut]

And that storyline as well dealt with religion in an interesting way - the Dominion were regarded as gods by their two races of followers. (Weyoun the Vorta was another brilliant character).

Jeffrey Combs who played Weyoun was only a recurreing character on DS9, but was in so many other Star Trek shows, that he should get a Honorary Regular Character certificate.

appear in ten different seasons of "Star Trek": Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1993) Seasons Three through Seven, Star Trek: Voyager (1995) Season Six and Star Trek: Enterprise (2001) Seasons One through Four.

Combs made quite a career out of playing ST characters.

 

[harllee]

Well we now have SNW episode 4 available. I'm still pretty happy about this series.

I won't drop any spoilers for the episode. Maybe we can discuss after a few days with spoiler warnings.

I do want to make a few general observations.

- SNW has found their reoccurring nemesis. And it is a famous old one. There's a lot to build on here.

- More character back stories come to life.

- The engineer is so darn different than any other engineer and I like it.

- Modern costuming and SFX allow more realism like environmental suits, body armor, and other tactical gear. Some may not like this. It is very different than TOS or TNG. I like the practical realism of it.

- Pike is being a captain instead of being deep in the action every episode like Kirk and Burhnam are.

- I believe the writers have found a lot of inspiration from the movie "Aliens" on many aspects, but especially the strong female characters (all of them, there are more than just Rippley)

Just watched the 4th episode of Strange New Worlds, enjoyed it very much. This is old fashioned Star Trek with a scary enemy. I too like the engineer, he is a grumpy Jack Nicholson type character--a get off my lawn and don't bother me type character. I like aliens that look different from humans. I also liked the special effects and battle scenes. Looking forward to more episodes.

 

[MuirWannabe]

I’m happy to agree. This latest episode was good. Almost a throw back to a ‘thinking man’s battle’ type of story. And better character development than in recent attempts. And this is the first time I felt like Pike was a good captain figure. Hopeful.

 

[JoeWras]

More about "Q".

"Q" caused me to quit watching the franchise for 30 years. Q is a crutch. Q is ridiculous. ... and ... Q has slightly grown in me in recent years.

When TNG came out in '87, me and my engineer friends were so fired up. We had a huge watch party. And right from the start, we get this ridiculous kangaroo court scene with an irritating character. I continued to watch TNG, powering through the "sex planet" episode (and nearly bailing), and then Q shows up again and I quit.

Over the next 30 years I tried to restart franchises, but would only see enough of an episode or two to get some rough framework. I only saw a few of the movies, and the Borg were in cultural conscience enough that I knew who they were and what they do. That's it.

Finally, near retirement, and with a streaming device in hand, I picked up ST about 6 years ago. This is why I haven't seen DS9 or Voyager yet. It took me a few years to go through the movies, TNG and Enterprise.

Ironically, on rewatch, Q kind of grew on me. Maybe it is my age. Or maybe he just grew on me like mold on cheese.

 

[harllee]

"mold on cheese" I like that. Q has never grown on me, I think I have liked him less as time has gone by. I hope he does not show up in Strange New Worlds, fingers crossed. On the other hand, DH really likes Q and finds him funny. Oh well.

 

[Pellice]

Joe, you read some of the forums where young people talk about Star Trek. What are they saying about SNW vs. some of the other spinoffs?

 

[JoeWras]

Joe, you read some of the forums where young people talk about Star Trek. What are they saying about SNW vs. some of the other spinoffs?

Yeah, I admit that I spend time on the r/startrek reddit, which has a younger audience than us.

The comments are overwhelmingly positive for SNW. It's that simple. Everything from the opening new Star Trek cover credit, to the music, to the sets, to the costumes, to Pike's hair... well you get it ... are seen in a positive light. There is very little criticism. Oh, a few nits here and there, but in general, the fans love it.

Now that subreddit has a lot of fans, so you'd think they would love everything. No. Picard has gotten a lot of criticism. The positivity comes in small doses from small scenes or individual episodes. Overall I'd say most people are watching it by rote, as a fan fulfilling an obligation.

Discovery has a lot of very, very committed fans. It also has critics. I don't want to get deep into politics, but suffice it to say that Discovery puts certain issues way out front, and there are groups who absolutely cheer for that and consider it extremely important to Star Trek and Disco. But as you can imagine in a 50-50 world, this also creates criticism, even if the "other side" is a minority of redditors.

There's also a set of grouches, like me, who criticize Disco for the dark production, muddled sound, fireball generators on the bridge, and poor pacing of the seasons. So the critique goes beyond social topics. BTW: Joe the grouch, me, likes the production of SNW better, however early in the last episode there was rapid-fire overlapping dialog that was hard to understand. I found a fellow grouch to commiserate with on this tiny topic. Ha ha. I did notice the bridge had no fireball machines, just your standard tilt and sparks of the TOS era. Hooray.

There are people who are looking for Discovery-like themes on SNW, and I just saw a thread where they are finding them and getting satisfaction. Let's say it is more subtle. Likewise, those on the other side of politics are pretty happy too. There's something for everyone if you can live comfortably in a 50-50 world.

The other show that gets a lot of chatter is "Lower Decks." I started this but put it on pause. I felt like I wasn't getting the jokes because I haven't seen DS9. "Lower Decks" has its fans. There's a bit of criticism, but overall the fans like it.

"Prodigy" doesn't get a lot of talk because I think the audience is small. The Janeway fans love it, as do real life parents who have something to watch with their young kids. I personally haven't seen any episodes yet.

 

[Chuckanut]

I’m happy to agree. This latest episode was good. Almost a throw back to a ‘thinking man’s battle’ type of story. And better character development than in recent attempts. And this is the first time I felt like Pike was a good captain figure. Hopeful.

I have not yet seen SNW.

Your comment on the 'thinking man's battle' reminds me of the time Kirk gathers his top guys together to discuss how to deal with the threat of a new Romulan ship that had a cloak and a fearsome energy weapon. They spent several minutes sitting at a table discussing options. The captain settles on a plan of action they can all buy into. In Discovery, the analysis and discussion would have been 27 seconds of very fast talking. Then one crew member would run off and do whatever she wanted to do anyway, ignoring everybody else because she 'knows' she is right. Silly.

 

[Pellice]

Chuckanut, the whole "Romulan cloak issue" was another theme interlaced through the different series that I really enjoyed. I liked the setup that the Federation had negotiated a settlement which left the Romulans with that tactical advantage - and the number of episodes where that caused nasty splits among Federation decision-makers. "Our hands are tied behind our backs, etc. etc." In fact, I felt the writers could have done more with that angle instead of weaselling out and generally getting to "borrow" a cloak whenever they asked. Another thing DS9 handled pretty well - the Romulans had to be dragged into making an exception for the Defiant to have a cloak - and I think they insisted on its removal after the Dominion War was won.

And also believable in that the whole issue gradually subsided as Federation technology gradually became more adept at detecting vessels despite the cloak, and it slowly became a non-issue. Which is how it might work out in "real life."

 

[Chuckanut]

Chuckanut, the whole "Romulan cloak issue" was another theme interlaced through the different series that I really enjoyed. I liked the setup that the Federation had negotiated a settlement which left the Romulans with that tactical advantage - and the number of episodes where that caused nasty splits among Federation decision-makers. "Our hands are tied behind our backs, etc. etc." In fact, I felt the writers could have done more with that angle instead of weaselling out and generally getting to "borrow" a cloak whenever they asked. Another thing DS9 handled pretty well - the Romulans had to be dragged into making an exception for the Defiant to have a cloak - and I think they insisted on its removal after the Dominion War was won.

And also believable in that the whole issue gradually subsided as Federation technology gradually became more adept at detecting vessels despite the cloak, and it slowly became a non-issue. Which is how it might work out in "real life."

IIRC, there was one TNG episode where the crew of the Enterprise discovered a Federation starship stuck into the interior of an asteroid. It seems the Feds had found away to get a ship to pass through solid matter, but it didn't quite work. Anyway, the Romulans would have probably launched a per-emptive war, so the idea was killed and buried, never to be spoken of again.

IIRC, the Remans had a perfect cloak in on of the last ST movies (the one where Data died saving Picard's life). How they did that while being under the thumb of the Romulans still has be wondering. But, that movie was almost beyond silly. Ramming the Enterprise into the enemy ship, and yet they both still seemed to work pretty well. Really?

Question: Why does the Enterprise have to get trashed in every movie?

 

[JoeWras]

Question: Why does the Enterprise have to get trashed in every movie?

Because they want to make it through the latin alphabet and are hoping to get to the greek alphabet.

I know I'm not completely a ST geek yet because I haven't memorized all the different Enterprise versions. You read some forums and people write up 1000 word posts waxing poetic about the various versions, by letter name.

 

[Zathras]

…
One thing that bothers me. Uhura is obviously serving under and getting to know Pike. Yet, in TOS menagerie episode it was only Spock who had a prior relationship with Pike. I don’t remember Uhura helping Spock kidnap Pike or anything. Just seems inconsistent.

Don’t let it bother you. After all, just how many of the cadets, that spent some time at communications, did you see in the original pilot, or the edited Menagerie?

 

[GenXguy]

Because they want to make it through the latin alphabet and are hoping to get to the greek alphabet.

I know I'm not completely a ST geek yet because I haven't memorized all the different Enterprise versions. You read some forums and people write up 1000 word posts waxing poetic about the various versions, by letter name.

And I feel like I'm overdoing it just by reading this thread. I've watched a lot of TOS and some TNG, along with all the movies based on TOS. I'm a little curious about SNW, but I would rather not get roped in to something else that I don't have time for - not even retired, yet.