The Cryptocurrency Thread

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I was surprised to see that the United States government has almost as much bitcoin as Michael Saylor's MicrosStrategy company. The U.S. has about $3B to Saylor's $3.3B.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...llion-bitcoin-year-ago-value-tripled-rcna7574

This is very deceptive. The US government has NOT bought any bitcoin and the holdings should not be viewed as any kind of endorsement of bitcoin. The US govenment holdings are evidence and proceeds of criminal activity confiscated from criminals.

I'm sure the US government has holdings of heroin and cocaine as well but no one would interpret those as endorsements of those contraband products.
 
Yup. I sold all of mine this morning and took delivery in nickles. That way I get the safety of fiat with a call option on the price of copper. The only problem is two floor joists cracked when I brought it into the house.

Copper? In nickels? Well, yes, 75% of the coin is copper. I didn't know that. The other 25% is real nickle.

My point is that money is a traditional store of value. And a currency that loses 12 percent in a few hours is not good enough to be money.

As far as crypto currencies are concerned, let's just say that while I don't trust them yet, anything that disrupts the Gang of Four is not all bad.
 
They got the bitcoin the same way they get all their revenue - confiscated under threat of force :)

As far as nickels being a store of value, just think how happy you would be now if you had saved silver dimes in 1960.

Looking at the nickel, you buy it at face value. At some times the melt value of the copper is more than five cents, but I don't think it is legal to melt them yet.

If they ever phase out the current nickel, then they could be like silver dimes depending on the price of copper. Older pennies are also copper, but too hard to sort.

If currency debasement continues, they might someday decide to say that you have to convert 10 of your old dollars for 1 new dollar. If that ever happens, they are likely to not want to bother converting the coins. So your humble nickel will now be worth ten times what it was.

Plus, if you stack them up in your walls they can act as ballistic protection in the event of a zombie attack. Just make sure to do that only on the first floor of a slab house :)
 
Copper? In nickels? Well, yes, 75% of the coin is copper. I didn't know that. The other 25% is real nickle. ....

Fun fact: "Nickel" refers to the US coin, 5 cent denomination. The US has a history of using the English measurement system.

Yet, a US 5 cent piece weighs almost exactly 5 grams, a metric measurement. I use a few nickels to do a rough check of my gram scale (mostly used for measuring out minerals or hops for brewing).

from wiki:

Industrialist Joseph Wharton had a near-monopoly on the mining of nickel in the United States, and sought to promote its use in coinage.[17] He was also highly influential in Congress. His friends there, though they had failed to obtain the metal's use for the two-cent piece, had been more successful with the base-metal three-cent coin.[18] Pollock prepared a bill authorizing a five-cent coin of the same alloy as the three-cent piece, with a total weight not to exceed 60 grains (3.9 g). At the committee stage in the House of Representatives, the weight was amended to 77.19 grains (5.00 g), ostensibly to make the weight equal to five grams in the metric system but more likely so that Wharton could sell more nickel.[16]

Now, back to bitcoin.

-ERD50
 
a US 5 cent piece weighs almost exactly 5 grams

I used to take advantage of that when using balance beam scales. A brand new nickel was the standard for five grams, and an ordinary paper clip was good for one gram.

I learned that in my high school physics class in the 1960s.
 
I'm sure the US government has holdings of heroin and cocaine as well but no one would interpret those as endorsements of those contraband products.

The entire US legal system and the US constitution, is an endorsement of Bitcoin in that our existing laws and constitutional principles "legalize" Bitcoin and enables its use to thrive.

Also, you would have to be extremely naïve to think that Governments (through various branches and methods) are not quietly stacking Sats. Of course they are, but there is no reason for this to be announced broadly (indeed quite the opposite, if you are a market-mover type acquirer, you want to keep it quiet until your desired allocation has been reached).
 
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Since the day this thread started, bitcoin has lost around 25% of its value. That’s in the same ballpark as the Turkish Lira, which was mentioned earlier as an example of a failing currency. That does not meet any definition of “store of value”.

True, although from the day since Early Retirement Forum itself started, Bitcoin has outperformed every single currency globally, by a vast and decisive amount. In that sense BTC has been far superior as a store of value over any other currency. It hasn't just stored value, it has exceeded and indeed outperformed in the function of store of value. But yes, it is obviously volatile against fiat currencies over short periods of time, as to be expected for a new technology organically growing as a global monetary network.

It’s clear bitcoin (and all other crypto assets) is a highly volatile risk asset , not a digital currency or substitute for payments systems.

These terms "digital currency" and "substitute for payments" are both a matter of semantics and subjective views. To many, BTC does function as both, and indeed one country has already officially adopted BTC as a currency (with the citizens of many other countries already informally doing so). But in the end what "label" we put on BTC is irrelevant with regard its actual functional qualities and properties.

Also, if the point you are making about payments is that BTC is not often used for daily transactions, bear in mind that we have the Lightening Network for day to day transactions. Far more efficient, faster and higher throughput than Visa or Mastercard on fiat. It is the Lightening Network for example that is used for the many micropayments we now see across Latin America, including of course in El Salvador.

While the supply of bitcoin may be finite, the supply of synthetic digital currencies is infinite. After bitcoin we might have bitcoin1, bitcoin2, ...etc. There’s no limit, no end, no barrier.

Try creating your own crypto currency, and see how that goes for you. :) Same argument applies to fiat currencies by the way, the number of which are declining over time as the world gravitates towards a smaller number of globally dominant currencies.

Much is made of financial institutions and wealthy individuals investing in crypto assets. That does not mean they believe these assets will soon become part of our financial infrastructure. It only means they all can make money today. They have the means and mechanisms to protect themselves and walk away from that stuff in a heartbeat, leaving people like us holding the bag.

That crypto-currencies are not already part of our financial infrastructure is already beyond doubt. Every single financial institution globally, either directly or indirectly (through its customers) already has exposure to BTC, increasingly such institutions offer crypto related services directly, and that level of exposure is of course only increasing. In my case, a number of the retail banks I use in various countries already have BTC as an asset they custody, exchange, convert, and I also have a number of crypto credit cards integrated with Visa.

As countries launch CBDCs, these will of course also be similarly integrated. Also, for many HNW's, diversifying asset exposure (and that includes to BTC) is not just a function of wanting to "make money" but rather a natural step one takes simply to preserve existing wealth as a defensive mechanism.

The real technological change that is almost entirely absent from this conversation is stable coins, digital payment systems and central bank digital currency. And perhaps decentralized finance. That’s where the real transformation is happening and will continue.

Agreed these are important areas.

BTC functions as the underlying base layer as the fundamental and immutable store of wealth.

Stable coins are a bridge between BTC and fiat, and also give fiat some of the qualities that BTC has (in terms of global transferability). The big difference being stable coins have counterparty risk in that there is an underlying issuer which in theory could be called on to pay out - (much like a bank issuing M2 in excess of deposits).

CBDCs function as fiat currencies (only with even less privacy and freedom for users) and of course with the same flaw of devaluation by money-printing (which BTC serves as defense against).

Defi is a great area of interest and innovation and is a huge disrupter of the role banks currently play. Defi offers benefits to both side of the equation (lender and borrower) but not for the bank as the middleman.

PS - if you wanted to add on to "other interesting areas hardly discussed by relevant to crypoto", you could add in NFTs, the metaverse, DAOs (including decentralized governments), among others.
 
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Also, you would have to be extremely naïve to think that Governments (through various branches and methods) are not quietly stacking Sats.

I'm not so sure about that with regard to the US government. There are some pretty stringent restrictions on what the government can buy and teh bureaucrats who would have to operationally make a significant bitcoin purchase happen are not going to risk their career, retirement, and freedom for something like that.

I do not have any doubt that some of the spy agencies have bought bitcoin for clandestine operations but I doubt it is a significant amount. There is plenty of seized bitcoin to use for that kind of thing.

Most things the government owns/buys/does is pretty easy to uncover. At one time in my career I had a job that involved ferreting out classified programs with significant funding. (I was doing business development for a defense/tech company) I had a high level security clearance. But the vast majority of material I used was unclassified budget data available to anyone and simple arithmetic looking for discrepancies. It's actually not that hard to find mismatches over about $100 million which is chump change in the US federal budget.

So no, I don't think the US government has bought more than a trivial amoun of bitcoin or other crypto currency, if that. And I don't say that because of any faith in politicians or government. It just would be difficult to hide and the discovery could be very damaging politically. I can't find it offhand but there was a congressman who recently got in all sorts of trouble for using campaign funds to buy equipment to mine bitcoin.
 
I mentioned it was predicted to be a rainy day in my area and it was. So I spent some time on a quest to see how we might rationally value bitcoin.

I read a few academic papers that used data and tested economic models to try to model the price of bitcoin.

I did not come away with any sound conclusions. The most significant paper I read that tried to address valuation was from 2014 which is a long time ago. But my overall summary is that there seems to be no correlation among bitcoin price and macro economic variables. There is significant correlation between bitcoin price and wikipedia searches regarding bitcoin and also between new posts on bitcoin websites. There is also a lot of positive feedback related to buyer enthusiasm.

So it seems like the research shows that most of the price increase is driven not by economic fundamentals but by enthusiasts posting on websites. That's not very encouraging.

How can a currency not respond to economic fundamentals like global growth and interest rates?

Another interesting point is that bitcoin is a fiat currency. It has no intrinsic value. Like all fiat currencies, its value is wholly determined by suply and demand. I think this is what 37 and several others have been trying to tell me. You've convinced me! Bitcoin is a fiat currency!
 
Another interesting point is that bitcoin is a fiat currency. It has no intrinsic value. Like all fiat currencies, its value is wholly determined by suply and demand. I think this is what 37 and several others have been trying to tell me. You've convinced me! Bitcoin is a fiat currency!

Good progress! Just one clarification, being the distinction that BTC is not issued by any Government (which is generally required under a standard definition of a "fiat currency"), is incorruptible by any Government (due to it being decentralized and global), and is limited in supply. It is these qualities (among others) that makes BTC unique and gives it utility and which is why many consider it to be the ultimate digital store of wealth!.
 
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They got the bitcoin the same way they get all their revenue - confiscated under threat of force :)

The reason that's funny is the opposite of what you say below.

The entire US legal system and the US constitution, is an endorsement of Bitcoin in that our existing laws and constitutional principles "legalize" Bitcoin and enables its use to thrive.

Also, you would have to be extremely naïve to think that Governments (through various branches and methods) are not quietly stacking Sats. Of course they are, but there is no reason for this to be announced broadly (indeed quite the opposite, if you are a market-mover type acquirer, you want to keep it quiet until your desired allocation has been reached).

So believing a conspiracy theory without evidence isn't extremely naive?
 
So believing a conspiracy theory without evidence isn't extremely naive?

No, not when its common-sense. Indeed its literally inconceivable that various arms of the Government don't hold BTC, (just like its inconceivable that various arms of the Government don't hold secret military technology, biological weapons, undisclosed persons of significance, etc etc). Not saying this is sinister of nefarious - indeed quite the opposite - there are good and obvious reasons why this would be the case.

Either way, Bitcoin is what it is, regardless of whether a Government holds some or not. If you really don't think the Government holds any Bitcoin, so be it.
 
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I learn more about bitcoin from this pro and con discussion.

On a lighter note, I think bitcoin possess duality values similar to wave-particle duality of light. Sometimes wave behaves as particle, other times wave behaves as wave; but it never behaves both on the same time.
Sometimes, people think bitcoins are valuable investable assets, other time they think it is a Ponzi scheme. :)
 
So I spent some time on a quest to see how we might rationally value bitcoin…So it seems like the research shows that most of the price increase is driven not by economic fundamentals but by enthusiasts posting on websites. That's not very encouraging.![/b]


I remember feeling acutely during the scariest part of the 2009 financial crisis, for the first time in my life, “Holy Cow: These dollars in my wallet only have value because we collectively think they do. If we collectively decide they don’t have value anymore, they don’t.”

It’s a hard realization to convey now but one grows up in a rich, powerful country, confident in its security, only to see its leadership sweating out ways to steer us from the brink of “total financial collapse”, as Hank Paulson later described it. One realizes that, ultimately, our currencies are ALL a confidence game. No one is in charge. There’s only a bag of tools that people hope will retain confidence, like getting Congress to act or commanding major bank CEOs to Washington, DC to force money into their reserves. It was really quite an awakening to our fragility.
 
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Bitcoin is the only item of which if the price goes up the supply DOES NOT go up, it stays on it's predetermined path. As stock prices go up the companies that own them issue more shares, if bonds go up in price, more of them are issued. If gold or silver go up more of it is mined. Bitcoin is the only asset in the world that has proven itself that is not effected by inflation. It is the engineering solution of the monetary base in a digital world.

As Michael Saylor so clearly states "I do not think it is an irrational thing to bet on technology in the modern era. That is what Bitcoin is, a great monetary technology."

For myself, I do not think that the monetary solution in the coming decades is going to be the printing of 128% M2 in order to solve problems of the world, nor that a digital dollar with limitless printing will replace bitcoin. As bitcoin adoption increases the limited supply of bitcoin will require the price to go up.

IF you are not comfortable with bitcoin do not buy it, but I am extremely comfortable with bitcoin.



Actually, many companies are buying back stock to decrease supply to drive up price even more.
 
Feb. 13 now. I think it is more relevant to reference the first day it ever had a high of the current price, as it might as well be a flat line between the two for a buy and hold, non-trader like me. It’s probably a bargain price today but crypto winters happen, so it might become even more of a bargain first.
 
Dollar cost averaging applies to crypto also. I have not looked how that would have performed in the same time frame.

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I went and looked at DCA per day/week/month since Feb 2021 and it gave a 5% advantage.
 
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Fake Satoshi Mark Wright does not need to hand over his imaginary Sats (valued at around 50 Billion), which he claims he owns but has never provided any proof of ownership of. :)

Next stage in the scam might be to borrow against his fake holdings, or even sell off shares of his imaginary sats at a big discount with a promise to validate the sale at time in the future (once he "finds" his imaginary private keys). He has not ever once provided proof of his claimed ownership, nor has he ever moved a single sat of the huge fortune he claims he owns.

It is noteworthy (but not reported in typical mainstream reports), that the Court did not actually rule he was Satoshi, nor that he actually had the coins he claimed he had. Rather only that if he did have the Sats he claims he has, he does not need to hand these over to the party who filed the claim.
 
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The lawsuit did not change any of the doubts to that claim. Some of the doubts
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/op-ed-how-many-wrongs-make-wright
Nothing obvious to quote
Ah, thanks - that's actually a relief. He had been my prime suspect for years as someone with other sources of income, but I didn't know about repeated past claims to move Satoshi's coins or provide a signature... all of which did not happen.

Last month I changed my view after reading Satoshi's original whitepaper - I don't have a guess anymore. Several sentences end in verbs, which is more characteristic of German. And Satoshi's email was on a European email server, hinting at maybe a European author. Which doesn't tell me much, but suggests Australians are less likely to be Satoshi.

I also accidentally put 2+2 together, that some of Satoshi's original coins were moved recently, so I assumed that was related to the lawsuit. Anyways, thanks for the correction - too bad the news article didn't say much either way.
 
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