The erosion of ideals

[marko]

Marko's statement is bang on - the performance of the stock is all that matters to many (most?) of us. I suspect that we will continue to get just what we deserve.

Well, let me try to be clear.
As my grandfather taught me, "Money is money. If you want to feel good, join a church, but feeling good won't help you put food on the table."

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I long ago realized that I really can't make a difference except to those closest to me.

Big Tobacco/Oil/Pharma doesn't care whether I do or do not own their stock; I'm too small. Why on earth would I short-change my ability to provide for my family both now and after I'm gone over ideals?

If oil is going to give me the biggest payout, sign me up.

I read a story somewhere about a guy who spent so much of his time and money helping the needy that he eventually became broke and needy himself. What a @#$^@#@& nincompoop.

 

[gerntz]

The optimism and idealism of youth is fleeting and easily undermined by capitalism and greed.

Capitalism & greed are what keep me optimistic about the future. Without those, I have no hope.

 

[6miths]

Well, let me try to be clear.
As my grandfather taught me, "Money is money. If you want to feel good, join a church, but feeling good won't help you put food on the table."

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I long ago realized that I really can't make a difference except to those closest to me.

Big Tobacco/Oil/Pharma doesn't care whether I do or do not own their stock; I'm too small. Why on earth would I short-change my ability to provide for my family both now and after I'm gone over ideals?

If oil is going to give me the biggest payout, sign me up.

I read a story somewhere about a guy who spent so much of his time and money helping the needy that he eventually became broke and needy himself. What a @#$^@#@& nincompoop.

Oh don't get me wrong. I own all those stocks too and certainly don't think that divesting myself of them is going to make any difference. At the same time I don't think that is unreasonable to hold these companies to a minimum standard and ask them to be reasonable stewards and decent corporate citizens. Capitalism comes in many flavours and while I'd like to believe in the invisible hand I feel better with the Russian approach - 'trust but verify'. And yes, I'm afraid that means a viable set of laws and regulatory bodies.

 

[redduck]

...Second, young people are idealistic because they see the world in black and white. To them, there are no shades of gray...

Sounds like you're a young person. Stating that young people see the world only in black and white is a great example of seeing something in only black or white.

 

[redduck]

And furthermore as per CALPERS:

First, of course Megacompanies make decisions based on financial return. They have a legal fiduciary duty to do so. If they didn't, the income that huge pension funds receive, such as CALPERS, would be reduced, and they could be sued by stockholders...

https://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article66202527.html
Mar 15, 2016 - Nearing the finish line in the biggest scandal in CalPERS' history, California officials accepted $20 million to settle civil charges over the bribery …

from Fortune.com
Jun 1, 2016 - A former CEO of Calpers was sentenced by a federal judge in San Francisco on Tuesday to 4-1/2 years in prison on a bribery conviction.

note: emphasis by the duck

 

[marko]

Oh don't get me wrong. I own all those stocks too and certainly don't think that divesting myself of them is going to make any difference. At the same time I don't think that is unreasonable to hold these companies to a minimum standard and ask them to be reasonable stewards and decent corporate citizens. Capitalism comes in many flavours and while I'd like to believe in the invisible hand I feel better with the Russian approach - 'trust but verify'. And yes, I'm afraid that means a viable set of laws and regulatory bodies.

Agreed.

 

[Amethyst]

I agree in principle - yet it's hard to know how to "hold" companies to do anything. Smaller companies can easily go out of business from too much regulation, while very large ones become almost de facto governments in their own spheres. Almost like the great trading companies of the 17th-19th centuries.

Oh don't get me wrong. I own all those stocks too and certainly don't think that divesting myself of them is going to make any difference. At the same time I don't think that is unreasonable to hold these companies to a minimum standard and ask them to be reasonable stewards and decent corporate citizens. Capitalism comes in many flavours and while I'd like to believe in the invisible hand I feel better with the Russian approach - 'trust but verify'. And yes, I'm afraid that means a viable set of laws and regulatory bodies.

 

[flintnational]

Sure, capitalism needs regulation. But, IMO, some tend to assume that regulation is more idealistic or more noble than capitalism.

I still like Milton Friedman's quote on this issue:

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest? You know, I think you’re taking a lot of things for granted. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us ? Well, I don’t even trust you to do that."

 

[JoeWras]

Having taken an interest in reading stories of Big Oii, King Coal, King Cotton, mining industries, VW, the arms industry, Wall Street, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, Food Inc, Sugar, etc... I'm left with the impression that there may be some room for improvement.

Speaking of King Coal... I was shocked to see the word scrip used on a CVS pharmacy sign on a recent trip through deep Appalachia!

It said: "Convert your scrip to cash here!"

Whoa! That's still going on? Really?

Footnote: DW worked in ATMs for a bank years ago. ATMs have a scrip setting. She always assumed it was for casinos. I'm not so sure anymore.

EDIT: update. A google search says the Fair Labor Standards act of 1938 outlaws scrip. Perhaps these coal companies have some little trivial award system? I know we have something like this at Megacorp, but they would never call it scrip! Confused. Seeing that sign blew me away. No, we were not hallucinating.

 

[Music Lover]

Capitalism & greed are what keep me optimistic about the future. Without those, I have no hope.

I'm not sure why greed is so often linked to capitalism when it's all the other systems where greed (taking what others have earned) is a requirement to be viable.

 

[happy2bretired]

Speaking of King Coal... I was shocked to see the word scrip used on a CVS pharmacy sign on a recent trip through deep Appalachia!

It said: "Convert your scrip to cash here!"

Whoa! That's still going on? Really?

Footnote: DW worked in ATMs for a bank years ago. ATMs have a scrip setting. She always assumed it was for casinos. I'm not so sure anymore.

EDIT: update. A google search says the Fair Labor Standards act of 1938 outlaws scrip. Perhaps these coal companies have some little trivial award system? I know we have something like this at Megacorp, but they would never call it scrip! Confused. Seeing that sign blew me away. No, we were not hallucinating.

Maybe this? New to me too.
https://www.shopwithscrip.com/

 

[oneill225]

Love Milton Friedman

Sure, capitalism needs regulation. But, IMO, some tend to assume that regulation is more idealistic or more noble than capitalism.

I still like Milton Friedman's quote on this issue:

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest? You know, I think you’re taking a lot of things for granted. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us ? Well, I don’t even trust you to do that."

Idealism is a luxury reserved for the naïve and the naïve are those who have been sheltered from reality like a pampered child. Those who have been raised to contribute to the family from an early age (like the children of farmers) are much less naïve as to the value of everyone doing their small and often thankless part to make the whole function.

None of this means that we should not be kind to others; of course we should. Nor should we accept an abusive workplace, but a vibrant, capitalistic economy provides the option to leave an abusive workplace and find a better job elsewhere. Centralized economies have all the worst traits of "mega corp" (government bureaucracies also do not care about you), without any competition.

So, if your happiness revolves around your employer telling you how wonderful and virtuous you are, then you may never be happy. Just take the money and do your small and often thankless part to make the whole function. Get your emotional support from your family and friends.

 

[JoeWras]

Maybe this? New to me too.
https://www.shopwithscrip.com/

Wow. Maybe. But that's a bad name! "scrip" has no good connotations!

This topic got me going a bit. I did some more searching and it turns out that many scrip tokens are very collectible. I never would have imagined this to be true! I have a Zimbabwe 1,000,000,000,000 note, will they take that?

But, in all seriousness, they are collectible. Imagine that your parents are dying. They inherited a bunch of tokens from their parents. You and your siblings are splitting the stuff of the estate. There had to be a lot of these going around in the early 20th century. Perhaps this store is acting as a quick and dirty coin dealer? I'm still confused.

Look at these eBay valuations of scrip tokens from the exact area we were passing thru. Amazing. $10 to $200 for various tokens of 50 cents to 5 dollars.

https://www.ebay.ca/dsc/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=ky+scrip&_frs=1

Edit: above was a search that landed on Canadian values. Here's a dealer in US for KY tokens. Wow.

https://www.louisiana-trade-tokens.com/trade-tokens/kentucky.html

 

[JoeWras]

Sorry to keep talking. But this scrip thing is exactly what we are talking about with ideals and companies. Judging by the collectors market, a lot of scrip ended up in drawers and not used. How convenient for the company to not pay actual legal currency. And that doesn't even mention how the company stores were a real bad deal for the employees who paid in scrip.

Just one of many examples of how companies may do things that are allowed, legal and serve the purposes of the shareholders... but screw the employee.

Of course, this erosion was 100+ years ago. It has been going on for millennia. I could mention a few today, but I'm 19 days from ER and I don't want to spoil my mood too much.

 

[gerntz]

e greed (taking what others have earned)

Not my definition of greed. Wanting things for self is what it means to me.

 

[MichaelB]

I'm 19 days from ER and I don't want to spoil my mood too much.

Steady as she goes ...

 

[aja8888]

I'm not sure why greed is so often linked to capitalism when it's all the other systems where greed (taking what others have earned) is a requirement to be viable.

Here's a better definition:

greed

NOUN

Intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

‘mercenaries who had allowed greed to overtake their principles’
‘greed has taken over football’
‘the colonists' greed for African land’

 

[Music Lover]

Not my definition of greed. Wanting things for self is what it means to me.

Then we agree. People wanting the fruits of other people's labour for themselves is greedy.

 

[haha]

Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us ?

Caracas!

 

[marko]

People wanting the fruits of other people's labour for themselves is greedy.

I'd think that people who just want to work hard for things/money/power can be defined as greedy without having to take from others.

It's not necessarily a zero sum game.

 

[Eagle43]

Sure, capitalism needs regulation. But, IMO, some tend to assume that regulation is more idealistic or more noble than capitalism.

I still like Milton Friedman's quote on this issue:

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest? You know, I think you’re taking a lot of things for granted. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us ? Well, I don’t even trust you to do that."

I just love that Friedman QUOTE.

I'll take capitalism over idealism every time. As somebody said, "The business of America is business,"

 

[marko]

As somebody said, "The business of America is business,"

I think is was Silent Cal. (Coolidge)

 

[CaptTom]

I'll give it one more try.

So there is no higher purpose? No interest in contributing anything to society? It's all about taking all you can, from anybody and everybody else? No satisfaction in leaving the world a slightly better place than you found it?

That would be really depressing.

 

[Nemo2]

I'll give it one more try.

So there is no higher purpose? No interest in contributing anything to society? It's all about taking all you can, from anybody and everybody else? No satisfaction in leaving the world a slightly better place than you found it?

That would be really depressing.

Primum non nocere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere

 

[6miths]

Primum non nocere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere

I tell the students that this is what our T-shirts say. Once year they actually gave me the T-shirt!

I also like the saying by Etienne De Grellet who fled France to the United States during the French Revolution.

“I shall pass this way but once; any good that I can do or any kindness I can show to any human being; let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.”