Three year old furnace sold/installed as New!

[ERD50]

... The thing to watch for, because it is deadly, is cracks in the heat exchanger. This can allow carbon monoxide into the house. A simple test for this is to turn up the thermostat to call for heat and start the furnace. Get down on your hands and knees and carefully watch the burner flame (this may not be possible with an oil burner). When the thermostat calls for heat the burners will light but the blower fan will not yet have started because the heat exchanger isn't warm yet. The few seconds when the blower fan starts is important - if the flame moves because of air blowing on it that is a strong indicator that a crack in the heat exchanger is likely. ....

Very good advice. I do this test at the season start up, and a few times during the year, and suggest it to everyone I know.

It's a little harder, almost impossible to get a view on the newer sealed combustion (condensing) furnaces though.

But almost all but the oldest furnaces in use today have that draft inducer fan. I would think that would make a CO build up very unlikely, unless there a was a really bad heat exchanger (and that might even trigger the furnace to shut down, w/o enough vacuum to pull in the vacuum detect switch). That draft inducer pulls a vacuum, so leaks would tend (no guarantee!) to draw house air into the chamber, rather than combustion air into the home.

But still a good idea (and simple - no tools required!) to do the visual check, and keep your CO detectors checked.

Also, I think that even Stainless Steel will rust a little with that kind of heat applied.

-ERD50

 

[SecondAttempt]

IANAL but I am a mechanical engineer with industrial experience with things like heat exchangers and bought a new facility HVAC sysem about 4 years ago at which time I learned a few things about the HVAC manufacturing industry that may shed some light here.

But first, you mentioned this problem was discovered during an annual "checkup." You may want to get a second opinion. If there were no symptoms then perhaps there is no problem. As freedomatlast said, a little rust on a heat exchanger should not be a problem. I knocked the rust off the inside of a home furnace for years with a wire wheel on a drill motor and never had any issues until I replaced the unit when a motor failed. I had replaced failed motors a couple of times previously but it was such a difficult job because of the design that I decided just to throw money at the problem and get a modern unit. It was at least 30 years old and likely about 50!

This reminds me of 25+ years ago when a coworker of mine, also a mechanical engineer, got a call from his wife while sitting next to me at work. A repair guy inspecting their air conditioner told his wife that rust he saw was a fungus that would infect their whole family if not repaired immediately. My buddy was livid and rushed home to kick the guy out. But I digress.

I am on the fence regarding whether you were defrauded in the original install. Three year old "new stock" is not the same as a used furnace. And this is exactly why warranties generally run from the install date.

As I mentioned, I fairly recently installed an HVAC unit for an industrial facility upgrade. We had to wait almost a year to get the parts because I learned that after the 2008 financial crisis the major manufacturers got stuck with a lot of stock and now almost exclusively manufacture on demand. So in your case, the installing company may have gotten a deal on old stock being dumped by a manufacturer, and you might have similarly gotten a good price due to their savings. The truth is, it was common back then to hold a lot of inventory that may have been a couple of years old. But your manufacture date of 2011 doesn't quite fit so it could be as simple as them defrauding you in 2014 as you suggest.

In terms of advice, I would start with a second opinion and with a good-faith negotiation with someone senior in the company that did the install and inspection. It seems a little strange to me that they would offer to pay for parts but you pay for labor. There may be a good explanation but it is more common in "making things right" to ask you to pay for hard costs (new hardware) and the company covering soft costs (salaries they would need to pay anyway.) They would just juggle schedules for other customers to make things work. With labor shortages right now things may be different though.

A 10 year warranty on a furnace seems long but if you have a 10 year warranty I would insist that it be applied from the install date as a negotiating point.

 

[Masquernom]

You discovered one of the many HVAC service scams. There are similar plumbing scams, and natural gas piping scams, and roofing scams. In my city, there is a plumbing outfit that advertises heavily. I learned that each plumber working for the outfit is their own little business. They pay back a certain fee for each job back to the owner, then anything they can tack on in fees they get to keep it all.
I called them one Sunday for an emergency repair on a gas line I nicked while working in the basement. I was told the whole gas line needed to be replaced, where the line came through the basement wall was not to code, etc, etc.. I think was about $1,500 in repairs he said. I told him to take a hike. Called another outfit the next day. $50 to install a union where the line was nicked.
HVAC outfits advertise to inspect furnaces and AC units every year so they can find something else to charge you for. I once was with a cute little blond girl when she took her car to a fast oil change place. Even with me sitting next to her, they tried to sell her everything in the garage. I couldn't believe it.

 

[frank]

if you have the model and serial no/s you can go on the manufacture site and they usually have a place where you can enter the no/s and see if it is under warranty and for how long.

 

[pacergal]

Thank you all again for your advice and information.

We do have Carbon Monoxide detectors in the house, new batteries installed along with the smoke detectors a while ago.
The company has not called back, nor have I received the email the worker told me he would send. No surprise there.
Reading what some of you have said, I guess it is not unusual to be sold/installed a "new: furnace that was manufactured a few years earlier. I think I would have liked to have known about that at the time when they installed it. I would have either found another company, or asked for a discount. I was reacting to the way the tech stated that the previous GM "scrounged around to find older models to install as new". I did not take that as it was a used furnace, but older than we were lead to believe.

Anyway, this company will not be doing business here anymore, not even sure I want them to come back to do the work/remove rust, or whatever.
I will consider getting a second opinion, good idea.

 

[ivinsfan]

Thank you all again for your advice and information.

We do have Carbon Monoxide detectors in the house, new batteries installed along with the smoke detectors a while ago.
The company has not called back, nor have I received the email the worker told me he would send. No surprise there.
Reading what some of you have said, I guess it is not unusual to be sold/installed a "new: furnace that was manufactured a few years earlier. I think I would have liked to have known about that at the time when they installed it. I would have either found another company, or asked for a discount. I was reacting to the way the tech stated that the previous GM "scrounged around to find older models to install as new". I did not take that as it was a used furnace, but older than we were lead to believe.

Anyway, this company will not be doing business here anymore, not even sure I want them to come back to do the work/remove rust, or whatever.
I will consider getting a second opinion, good idea.

If it was me that's a hard No, to calling the same company back for any reason.

 

[Aerides]

Anyway, this company will not be doing business here anymore, not even sure I want them to come back to do the work/remove rust, or whatever.

This is the smart approach, having read your updates. There comes a point where getting the money/fix from the original bad actors is not worth it. If you don't have confidence in them any more (and you shouldn't) then that's that.

It might cost you more cash in the short term, but save you more peace of mind in the longer term (and possibly cash too!)

 

[travelover]

.......HVAC outfits advertise to inspect furnaces and AC units every year so they can find something else to charge you for........

Yes. It is like the cheap oil changes or free inspections that car dealers offer. They want to get you in to sell you things that you probably don't need or could get elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. This is especially true for people that are not knowledgeable about cars.

 

[pacergal]

I hesitate to comment because although I was a HVAC tech for a couple of years, that was fifty (??!!!) years ago. That said, the physics haven't changed although the controls certainly have.

But back then, some rust on the heat exchanger was normal. One of the products of combustion, be it natural gas, propane, or oil, is water. On the initial startup this water does condense on the (at first) cold heat exchanger and although it quickly evaporates as things heat up, a little bit of rusting does happen at every start-up. Unless it's stainless steel of course, which we didn't have back then.

The thing to watch for, because it is deadly, is cracks in the heat exchanger. This can allow carbon monoxide into the house. A simple test for this is to turn up the thermostat to call for heat and start the furnace. Get down on your hands and knees and carefully watch the burner flame (this may not be possible with an oil burner). When the thermostat calls for heat the burners will light but the blower fan will not yet have started because the heat exchanger isn't warm yet. The few seconds when the blower fan starts is important - if the flame moves because of air blowing on it that is a strong indicator that a crack in the heat exchanger is likely. It's not a sure bet so don't panic yet, but it certainly warrants a closer look. The only way to be sure is to either take stuff apart to get a good look at it or use a borescope, which we didn't have back then.

Again, this technique is what we did fifty years ago. To my knowledge it is still valid but things may have changed and I'm not aware of it.

thank You, Walt
We just did this, the blower/fan/flame all came on precisely and the flame was perfectly solid, no wavering.

 

[euro]

OK, so is it even possible that the furnace actually was new and sat in a warehouse somewhere or the company bought from a place that went defunct?


Say made in 12/11 went to some furnace company toward the end of season, they went broke resold it in the box.


Generally a furnace will not be ripped out and reinstalled that quickly.



There's a difference between an older model and a used model. I can't tell from your post if you feel the furnace was a used model.

I agree - this may well have been a "new-old" product that was manufactured in 2011 but sat in a box until 2014. Not that big a deal! In an extreme case, it could have been made in Dec 2011 and installed in Jan 2014, so only sat on the shelve for a little over a year. Edit: a little over 2 years...
In any event, there is no real deterioration for an HVAC unit from just sitting unused, so you may not really have lost anything. In fact, he may have been able to cut you a good deal back in 2014 b using a new/old model. I bought a new/old motorcycle (1981 model bought in 1985) for a great price and no issues.

 

[jazz4cash]

I’d be concerned about the cause of a rust issue serious enough to require a repair. It’s likely not a surface rust issue as mentioned. I wonder if the AC evaporator drain is installed properly. The AC evaporator is usually mounted above the heat exchanger and produces lots of condensation which could cause rust issues if not drained properly.

I think I would push for a new unit but I would settle for a replacement. I might pay a hundred bucks or so but I’d be looking for value like a higher efficiency system.

 

[RobbieB]

There is nothing wrong with the furnace. The "furnace dudes" are trying to make some dough.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

I don't know anything about furnaces but something similar happened to me with tires. I have learned to insist on seeing the date they were made before they are installed. Also, car warranty is from manufacture date, not date of sale. Which seems ridiculous but. . .

GM automobile warranties start the day the car is placed "in service", typically the date of new purchase; not on date of manufacture. IIRC, our Toyota and Honda were the same.

When I've bought tires, the warranty was also from date of sale. The problem is that tires can die from age before they wear out if you don't drive a lot, but it will be after the official warranty has expired.
The month & year of manufacture are molded into the side of the tire, both the tire maker and the car maker will have recommendations for inspections and age limits.

 

[indiajust]

all the furnaces i have owned were natural gas and cast iron heat exchangers. Rust is perfectly normal and has no effect. Crack, that is bad, can lead to CO or CO2 ingress to house. Rust is beautiful.

 

[Happyras]

Ferric oxide on the surface of a heat exchanger will reduce coefficient of heat transfer making the furnace less efficient. Titanium oxide on the surface of titanium heat transfer tubes is a good thing and it prevents corrosion. Stress corrosion cracking can occur in stainless steel heat transfer services due to chemistry. The type of stainless steel used in a secondary heat transfer heat exchanger on a typical gas furnace is typically a duplex stainless steel for modern designs produced in the past 20 years.

A well known furnace company Lenox back in the early 90s was selling their heat exchangers in a coated galvanized carbon steel and offered a recall program even though those furnaces were out of warranty. All the furnaces suffered early corrosion cracking and a huge liability for this manufacturer from carbon Monoxide poisoning.

Typically heat exchangers that are welded have a high failure rate due to corrosion of the heat affected zone of the weld. In stainless steel fabrication the passivation of those weld areas is critical to the longevity of me heat exchanger.

Most furnace manufacturers avoid welding but do not use the best materials to give a long life to the furnace. They are commodity items intended to have a lifecycle of less than 20 years.