Three year old furnace sold/installed as New!

[pacergal]

OK, I am more than p****d. (Sorry , longer post than I meant)

We just had a furnace check up, which I do every year. Neither DH or I are DIY when it comes to that kind of stuff.
The repair person starts out showing me on camera how some rust is built up in the heat exchanger. I told him this was a fairly new furnace, he insists it was a 2011 (which is still only 10 years old, seems too new to need repair?)
Anyway, I show him paperwork AND a stamp from their company (on the furnace) that this was installed NEW in 2014!!!
He backtracks, calls the company. Come to find out:
"the old general manager, who is no longer with the company, apparently did this. Scrounged around for older models and installed them as new" WHAT
I am not a happy camper and he could tell that. He told me they are checking if this is still under warranty and "we will make this right"
Repair would be 2 guys for about 8 hours, he says they would cover parts, but I am to pay labor, about $1600. NO Friggen way I will pay anything, I think!!
We essentially paid new price for a 3 year old furnace!!

Waiting for a callback from someone in the company later today.
My thinking is that they need to fix this at no cost to me OR install a brand new furnace as should have happened in 2014. No way I should need to pay for labor.
To those who know about furnaces--is rust in the heat exchanger something that could happen within basically the 7 years we have had the furnace? (which is actually a 10 year old furnace!!!)
I have not problem reporting to BBB and going to social media.

Your thoughts? Am I correct in my thinking/plan?

 

[OldShooter]

On top of the issue you mention, my guess is that the technician gets a commission for making up ghost stories and selling replacement furnaces. Second guess is that BBB will already know about these guys. Letter to the state attorney general will probably be more effective. Those politicians love this kind of opportunity to chest thump and show off.

I would ask in writing whether the tech is commissioned or not.

 

[Aerides]

Yeah I would not be dealing with the repair guy directly at this point, it's above his pay grade to make concessions. I'd be working with the owner.

 

[pacergal]

He did show me a label inside the furnace, indeed showing it was built in 2011.
Attorney general sounds like a good option.

 

[badatmath]

I don't know anything about furnaces but something similar happened to me with tires. I have learned to insist on seeing the date they were made before they are installed. Also, car warranty is from manufacture date, not date of sale. Which seems ridiculous but. . .

 

[Scrapr]

IANAL....or HVAC expert. I wouldn't worry about rust on a heat exchanger. Maybe from condesation on cool down? Cracks in the heat exchanger? Yes....replace

maybe a second opinion from someone w/no skin in the game

*edit: yes (some) repair techs get a commission for bringing in big ticket repairs. Usually they get these repairs sold by scaring homeowners

 

[OldShooter]

... Attorney general sounds like a good option.

Don't fire your only big gun right away. It's a single-shot weapon. Be patient and calm, but persistent. Don't threaten. See what you get. Even if you get what you want, if you think the company is basically dishonest then fire away for the good of other consumers.

 

[ivinsfan]

OK, so is it even possible that the furnace actually was new and sat in a warehouse somewhere or the company bought from a place that went defunct?


Say made in 12/11 went to some furnace company toward the end of season, they went broke resold it in the box.


Generally a furnace will not be ripped out and reinstalled that quickly.


As far as rust any chance you use propane , propane heat can cause rust issues we are on our second furnace and had rust issues. Rust isn't generally gonna happen in a in the box furnace.



There's a difference between an older model and a used model. I can't tell from your post if you feel the furnace was a used model.

 

[ERD50]

Slimy to sell an old as new (but probably not 'used', just old stock, maybe ordered, then realized it didn't fit and it was stored?). But at the present time you really have no 'damages' (though understandably upset), and I don't think replacing it with a whole new furnace is the best move for you, and I doubt they would agree to that.

If it was stored properly (not in a humid space), the heat exchanger should not have rusted in storage. But is it in a humid place in your home? I've read that the old standing pilots kept the furnace warm and dry and prevented rust in a humid basement, but the new 'fire on demand' types don't protect in that way - they are off all summer. But I still would expect them to last > 7 years.

And is "some rust build up" really a sign it needs to be replaced (I don't know)?

There is usually a pretty long warranty on the heat exchanger (20 years from a quick search), but yes, that probably does not include labor. So they aren't doing you any favors by not charging for the heat exchanger, it should be covered anyway.

If the average life of a furnace is X years, you've been cheated out of 3 years of that, in one way, 3/X the cost of the furnace is your 'damage'.


I'd ask for a rebate of that X amount of the original cost, and that all warranties be extended by 3 years. Does the mfg warranty from build date, or install date? You may be covered anyhow.

$1600 sounds like a lot to for labor only to replace a heat exchanger. I paid $1500 to replace the A/C coil in my HVAC, and that's a similar amount of labor, and included the cost of the new coil, a service call to diagnose the problem, and leak testing then recharging the unit. So $1600 in labor sounds out of whack.

FWIW, I don't give much thought to social media gripes about contractors - you hear one side of the story, so who knows (though selling old as new is straight-forward)? Recently, someone griped and griped about a tow truck 'ripping them off', when it was pretty clear the complainer was in the wrong. Hard to say in many cases.

-ERD50

 

[ivinsfan]

I don't understand why posters think you've been cheated out of 3 years of use. If it sat in the box in essence it's a new furnace.


I wonder if there is a national database where they keep track of furnace serial numbers for recalls and safety stuff?

 

[CoolRich59]

Don't fire your only big gun right away. It's a single-shot weapon. Be patient and calm, but persistent. Don't threaten. See what you get. Even if you get what you want, if you think the company is basically dishonest then fire away for the good of other consumers.

This.

Calling the AG’s office is like declaring war. They will probably “lawyer up” if you do that.

OldShooter is right. Be (reasonably) patient and give them a chance to do the right thing.

 

[RobbieB]

It may well be a new unit (never installed, just sitting) and must not be a condensing furnace which have stainless steel exchangers by design.

 

[njhowie]

I don't understand why posters think you've been cheated out of 3 years of use. If it sat in the box in essence it's a new furnace.

Because on manufacturers warranty if it is for 10 years, it can be as of the manufacture date, not the purchase/install date. If it sat in the box new for 3 years, and that's the one you got, you may have lost 3 years of the warranty.

We went through this when our water heater needed to be replaced just a month or two after 10 years from the manufacture date.

 

[OldShooter]

It may well be a new unit (never installed, just sitting) and must not be a condensing furnace which have stainless steel exchangers by design.

You would think so (as I did) but you would be wrong. We bought a condensing Bryant Plus95i about ten years ago, the unit recommended by an HVAC contractor we have used and trusted for years. Anyway, the thing started shutting down due to low combustion air flow. Techs came out and showed me a mild steel heat exchanger with passages almost clogged by rust. I think the part was like $300 though they ate the labor cost. So if OP's furnace is showing rust that may be that the heat exchanger is not stainless after all. I'll remember to ask next time.

 

[RobbieB]

Weird. I know mine is because I saw the thing when they were installing it.

 

[ivinsfan]

Because on manufacturers warranty if it is for 10 years, it can be as of the manufacture date, not the purchase/install date. If it sat in the box new for 3 years, and that's the one you got, you may have lost 3 years of the warranty.

We went through this when our water heater needed to be replaced just a month or two after 10 years from the manufacture date.

That might be true and it might not, that would be first things to figure out...

 

[calmloki]

**If it ain't broke don't fix it.**

Put me in the group that says it is very normal for the manufacture date to be different from the install date. New Old Stock. Our new nat. gas Rheem furnace, which we had installed in the crawl space (in soggy Oregon - dumb move) was built in 08/1995. That is according to a Rheem serial date code decoder and the picture I have of the furnace #plate. Installed in 1998 and we moved in here 12/1999. So our heater, in a soggy unheated crawl space, is still doing fine after 26 years? Bet yours is as well. Have a glass of wine, tell upsell Urkel no go on futzing with your furnace, and chill.

If your heat exchanger isn't cracked you will gain nothing by changing it. In fact your annual inspection is pretty much just saying to the heating company "we have way too much money - please relieve us of it". Not much they can do to or for your heating system as an improvement if it is working, and if it isn't working you would know.

 

[pacergal]

Thank you for all of your comments so far.
I have calmed down some, I just was shocked that a furnace would be sold as new, if manufactured three years ago. If they had told me that at the time of install, I would certainly be feeling different. I have not heard back from the company yet, you have all given me some good questions to ask.
Thank you

The furnace is run by natural gas, is out in the garage right next to the inside door and gas water heater. It is also the bower/fan for the Ac unit. We have relatively no/low humidity here.

DH also reminded me that this tech is the same one who came out this summer and told us the AC unit needed $5000 in repairs! Probably is paid by commission as a Salesman! Granted, the AC unit is 17 years old, but still runs/cools well. He was going to have "someone" call us to discuss replacement costs then, and no one did. We do not plan to follow up with that at this time.

 

[iloveyoga]

Many times the year built is part of the serial number. I have never seen one installed that was built three years in the past. Usually it is the current year or one year past. In my experience the warranty starts with the installation date.....

 

[freedomatlast]

The only problem here is if you ever let someone from this company inside your home ever again.

I do all my own work on furnaces and have been doing so for decades. It is not uncommon for there to be some surface rust on the heat exchanger. As a matter of fact, it would be unusual if there wasn't any, especially if it hasn't been used since spring.

As long as the heat exchanger isn't cracked, there is no issue.

Also, the warranty date is from the date of installation, not the date of manufacture, so there is no issue there either.

Again, it's not unusual for the date of manufacture to be significantly different from the date of installation.

 

[Jerry1]

DH also reminded me that this tech is the same one who came out this summer and told us the AC unit needed $5000 in repairs!

Sounds like you’ve found a scammer. I’d not let him or his company in my house again. I’d also get a person to come look at that heat exchanger just to be sure. Most important is to make certain your carbon monoxide detector(s) are installed and working properly.

If the exchanger is bad, I’d work with the manufacturer and force the issue that the install date, not the manufacture date is the controlling date.

Good luck (though my guess is that nothing is wrong).

 

[Walt34]

I hesitate to comment because although I was a HVAC tech for a couple of years, that was fifty (??!!!) years ago. That said, the physics haven't changed although the controls certainly have.

But back then, some rust on the heat exchanger was normal. One of the products of combustion, be it natural gas, propane, or oil, is water. On the initial startup this water does condense on the (at first) cold heat exchanger and although it quickly evaporates as things heat up, a little bit of rusting does happen at every start-up. Unless it's stainless steel of course, which we didn't have back then.

The thing to watch for, because it is deadly, is cracks in the heat exchanger. This can allow carbon monoxide into the house. A simple test for this is to turn up the thermostat to call for heat and start the furnace. Get down on your hands and knees and carefully watch the burner flame (this may not be possible with an oil burner). When the thermostat calls for heat the burners will light but the blower fan will not yet have started because the heat exchanger isn't warm yet. The few seconds when the blower fan starts is important - if the flame moves because of air blowing on it that is a strong indicator that a crack in the heat exchanger is likely. It's not a sure bet so don't panic yet, but it certainly warrants a closer look. The only way to be sure is to either take stuff apart to get a good look at it or use a borescope, which we didn't have back then.

Again, this technique is what we did fifty years ago. To my knowledge it is still valid but things may have changed and I'm not aware of it.

 

[RobbieB]

Oh yeah! The new ones have an inducer that pulls air through the exchanger upside down. Yeah the fire, fires (4 in my case) fire into 4 big pipes at the top and are drawn down (yeah down, anti heat rise direction) into 20 smaller pipes that go through the exchanger fins and terminate in the water collection and drain manifold which the inducer pulls vacuum on.

And the vent pipe is 2 inch schedule 40 PVC, yeah, plastic water pipe!

 

[HarveyS]

DH also reminded me that this tech is the same one who came out this summer and told us the AC unit needed $5000 in repairs! .

Time to find a new HVAC company to do business with.

 

[travelover]

My 3 cents.

It is no big deal if the furnace was three years old if it was new in the box. It is not like they go bad from sitting.

It is normal for parts that get hot to take on a rusty appearance. That doesn't mean they are defective. I'd get a second opinion from a recommended HVAC tech.

You should have one or more carbon monoxide detectors in your house. If a furnace does get a crack in the heat exchanger, the CO detectors will tip you off.


Bonus tip: HVAC techs are among the most dishonest service providers. Sorry Walt, I know you were one of the good ones.