Tire rotation

[ncbill]

I buy my tires from an independent shop that offers free rotation.

Though I often forget & end up buying two replacement tires once the front ones are worn...back tires go to the front, new tires to the back.

Whether RWD or FWD, a new pair of tires is always supposed to go on the back wheels.

 

[Koolau]

I buy my tires from an independent shop that offers free rotation.

Though I often forget & end up buying two replacement tires once the front ones are worn...back tires go to the front, new tires to the back.

Whether RWD or FWD, a new pair of tires is always supposed to go on the back wheels.

Yeah, I told the tire place I went to last time to be sure to put the new tires on the back. They'd never heard of that! I couldn't believe it. YMMV

 

[Teacher Terry]

Big O Tires fixed my flat tire for free since I bought my tires from them.

 

[JoeWras]

Yeah, I told the tire place I went to last time to be sure to put the new tires on the back. They'd never heard of that! I couldn't believe it. YMMV

Here's the idea on this, regardless of whether the car is RWD or FWD. Front tires that are "bad" cause understeer in rain. I e. A tendency to plow ahead in the direction you are going. A non expert driver (most of us, because by expert I mean a racer) will tend to back off the throttle. This is mostly ok with understeer. You may regain control. You may not, and the results could still be bad, but you have a chance.

Bad back tires result in oversteer. Letting off the throttle makes it worse. You swap ends or spin out. Most non experts have no chance. You're in for a random spin or half spin. You'll go somewhere random, nothing good.

Chalk up another "safety" trait of FWD. So many people neglect their tires. FWD wear is safer than RWD wear. Add the fact that RWD is inherently more difficult to control, and you see why so many non expert drivers can't control their fancy RWD sport cars.

 

[SecondAttempt]

^^^^^^

My car is "staggered" - different size tires on front and rear so tire rotation is not an option.

But I am curious about your statement JoeWras. It makes perfect sense but since front tires usually wear faster, wouldn't tire rotation always degrade safety since it would result in putting the worse tires on the rear?

Personally, before my current car, I have always rotated my tires frequently to keep even wear but I did it myself so no cost beyond half an hour of my time on a weekend when I woould have been [-] sleeping in [/-] working hard in the yard.

 

[JoeWras]

^^^^^^

My car is "staggered" - different size tires on front and rear so tire rotation is not an option.

But I am curious about your statement JoeWras. It makes perfect sense but since front tires usually wear faster, wouldn't tire rotation always degrade safety since it would result in putting the worse tires on the rear?

Personally, before my current car, I have always rotated my tires frequently to keep even wear but I did it myself so no cost beyond half an hour of my time on a weekend when I woould have been [-] sleeping in [/-] working hard in the yard.

There's a lot of balancing of issues going on here. And yeah, with differential sizes, you have no choice except to go by axle.

Rotation (or replacement) is really important for RWD cars because the rears may go faster, depending on your driving style.

FWD naturally wear faster up front. So rotating just helps balance out the wear patterns to deal with the other issues we spoke of, i.e. tire rot and age. I guess one could argue that it is best to try to keep a balance of wear for best handling, no matter what.

But yeah, we're having this discussion because there is a group that believes in letting the fronts wear then moving the back to front and putting new on the back. I don't think this is a terrible plan. It could be worse. I just "feel" like having GOOD tread on all 4s that are balanced is best.

Then again, I do not let my tires wear to the nub. I'm a pretty aggressive replacer. Tires are the most important safety item on your car. Forget all the new fancy electronic stuff. Safety is in tires and brakes, but especially tires.

Part of this is generational. My family's only bad car accident was due to dad being "cheap" and only replacing two. (Guess which two, up front of course, because that seemed logical. Dad always talked about that.) They had a bad rollover accident because the rears broke free and they spun. I was present as a fetus. Luckily, we all came out mostly OK. Mom always joked that it toughened me up.

Postscript: I use Discount Tire and the rotations come with the deal, so it isn't difficult. I used to rotate myself. It was a good time to inspect things. I've retired from that task.

 

[Amethyst]

My pal believes in replacing the front tires and leaving the back ones alone, not moving the back ones up front. He thinks this is the cheapest and safest plan. I'm still not sure what this group thinks about that.

FWD naturally wear faster up front. So rotating just helps balance out the wear patterns to deal with the other issues we spoke of, i.e. tire rot and age. I guess one could argue that it is best to try to keep a balance of wear for best handling, no matter what.

But yeah, we're having this discussion because there is a group that believes in letting the fronts wear then moving the back to front and putting new on the back. I don't think this is a terrible plan. It could be worse. I just "feel" like having GOOD tread on all 4s that are balanced is best.

.

 

[JoeWras]

My pal believes in replacing the front tires and leaving the back ones alone, not moving the back ones up front. He thinks this is the cheapest and safest plan. I'm still not sure what this group thinks about that.

You know what I think about leaving bad tires on the back. Bad plan.

I'll give you more details about the family accident. It was a two lane road. It was raining. Mom decided to pass a very slow vehicle. As she swung out for the pass, the rear end broke loose and the car started sliding across the road with lateral movement. It hit the gravel shoulder on the other side and rolled over. Everyone was ejected. Dad has glass injuries. I was in the safety of the womb. Dad takes 100% responsibility for this and he told this story vividly until his last years of life.

Don't underestimate the danger of the rear of the car breaking loose causing oversteer.

Let's get theoretical on understeer. Imagine if Dad had instead left the bad tires on front. Mom would have attempted to pass, lost grip on the front, and run off the road on the wrong side without a spin starting. We still may all be dead, but there likely wouldn't have been a rollover. The fact we lived after ejection was just dumb luck.

 

[REWahoo]

My pal believes in replacing the front tires and leaving the back ones alone, not moving the back ones up front. He thinks this is the cheapest and safest plan. I'm still not sure what this group thinks about that.

Definitely poll material.

My vote is "Very bad idea".

 

[Koolau]

Definitely poll material.

My vote is "Very bad idea".

+1

 

[street]

My pal believes in replacing the front tires and leaving the back ones alone, not moving the back ones up front. He thinks this is the cheapest and safest plan. I'm still not sure what this group thinks about that.

Well, if the back is bad then they need changed also. In a response earlier, I in most cases just buy two but you would need to get on that rotation of two tire replacement program.

I have through the years replaced all four but, in my driving, and where my driving occurs the two-tire replacement works great for me.

For me if I was going to drive across the US and back again, I would replace them all if needed.

I believe front end alignment is more important than rotation of tire doing it so often.

 

[Car-Guy]

And for those reading this thread that don't know, if you ever see the wear bar (some call them breaker strips) showing up even with the remaining tread on your tire(s) "at any point", the tires(s) are already past needing to be replaced. I know some folks that will run their tires to the wear bars... Not me.

 

[Jerry1]

From TireRack.com:

If replacing just two tires on a square setup, the question of position becomes most important - as proper tire position directly affects safety in wet or slippery road conditions. When tires are replaced in pairs, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle, with the partially worn tires moved to the front. Why? Because new tires with deeper treads on the rear axle will better maintain traction and resistance to hydroplaning - the circumstance that occurs when the tire's tread cannot process enough water to maintain effective contact with the road, causing the vehicle to lose traction.

The reason the back axle is preferred relates to what happens when a vehicle starts to hydroplane. If new tires are mounted to the front axle versus the rear, the rear tires will lose traction in wet or slippery conditions before the front. This is dangerous, as the vehicle will tend to oversteer and spin out, potentially causing loss of control. If the front tires begin to hydroplane, the vehicle naturally wants to continue moving forward, which is called understeer. Understeer is much easier to navigate, as releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle, helping the driver maintain better control.

 

[street]

From TireRack.com:

That is the rotation/replacement method I do. A replacement rotation program that might not fit all driver's approval.

 

[Jerry1]

That is the rotation/replacement method I do. A replacement rotation program that might not fit all driver's approval.

I added it because it explained the “why”. If someone wants to do otherwise, oh well. Personally, I rotate and replace all four tires unless I was to get an unrepairable flat.

 

[Music Lover]

I have a floor jack and an electric impact wrench so rotating tires is easy to do myself. Plus I have dedicated winter tires on their own rims so all I do is mark them when swapping for the season and rotate them when installing them the next year.

 

[Montecfo]

I have a floor jack and an electric impact wrench so rotating tires is easy to do myself. Plus I have dedicated winter tires on their own rims so all I do is mark them when swapping for the season and rotate them when installing them the next year.

Those are nice to have!

 

[Music Lover]

Those are nice to have!

I consider it money well spent. I can swap tires in 20 - 25 minutes, that's faster than driving somewhere and waiting for someone else to do it.

 

[Telly]

And for those reading this thread that don't know, if you ever see the wear bar (some call them breaker strips) showing up even with the remaining tread on your tire(s) "at any point", the tires(s) are already past needing to be replaced. I know some folks that will run their tires to the wear bars... Not me.

Yeah, by the time the wear bars appear at only 2/32" of tread depth left, hydroplane resistance is pretty low.

Speaking of hydroplaning, when we moved to TX many years ago in a small group of corporate relocatees, we were all amazed(shocked!) how fast people around here drove through b-i-g puddles, even of unknown depth! Big rooster tails behind, like power boat competitions. Water would also splash in great quantity into the oncoming lane, a tidal wave hitting your windshield and car with a thump, blocking out all vision till the wipers could clear it/drained off! We often compared notes, found people bragging about how much water they ran through fast, and hydroplaning, like it was an act of courage.

There were some underpasses that tended to flood in heavy rains, and some of the TV stations would set up a camera after the rain had stopped. And would watch car after car run into the water, even though they could see cars stalled out in the water ahead. Some with only the top 6 inches or so showing! Remember one camera crew that filmed a Chevy Impala zoom right into 4 foot deep water under a bridge. The car stopped quickly, nose down, floating, then settled down onto the pavement beneath, level. Two adults crawled out the windows onto the roof. The driver being very careful not to spill her big slurpee cup!

The camera crew had finally been shocked beyond silence, and yelled over to them. In an incredulous voice "Why didn't you stop? How could you miss all the cars flooded out? And the car that went in about 15 seconds before you " The two people just shrugged their shoulders, held on to the slurpee cup to keep it upright, and wanted the camera crew to come get them so they wouldn't have to get down into the water. Uh-uh, no!

 

[travelover]

Yeah, by the time the wear bars appear at only 2/32" of tread depth left, hydroplane resistance is pretty low.............

And the hydroplaning resistance at that wear level can vary quite a bit between tire models. Consumer Reports has started testing tires that have been worn down to be able to quantity wet performance when tires are worn as well as when new.

 

[JoeWras]

Don't be cheap on tires. Don't push the tread depth. Your life depends on a few square inches of contact space.

Be cheap on car washes. Blow them off. Don't vacuum. Don't fix the broken nav system. Blower doesn't work on high? Forget it.

But for the love of everything, don't blow off tire replacement.

 

[Slater]

I rotate tires every other oil change, instead of every time. Assuming tires will last 30-50K, there’s no need to do it every 5,000 miles. Save 50% and do it every 10,000 miles…exact same effect.

BTW, tread is only important for driving in the rain, on dry pavement it doesn’t matter much. If you don’t believe it, look at what all on track race cars run when it’s dry, and wet.

That makes zero sense! those tires with zero tread have a rubber composition that is SUPER sticky, higher speed rating, etc...
They wear out super fast but glue the car to the ground, unlike a commuter car tire...
Been an auto tech for 35+ years, I rotate every 5k on my personal vehicles, & also recommend doing so to everyone...
To each their own I guess.
more times than not if you dont rotate at all like the ops buddy suggested, eventually inside edge of front tires will be worn down to the cords & rest of the tire will still have tread, & thats with it properly being aligned, have seen it many times in my career as a wrench...

 

[Ian S]

more times than not if you dont rotate at all like the ops buddy suggested, eventually inside edge of front tires will be worn down to the cords & rest of the tire will still have tread, & thats with it properly being aligned, have seen it many times in my career as a wrench...

That's not been my experience with my staggered fitment sports coupe where the tires simply can't be rotated. I've replaced the tires twice (four at a time) and have not seen the type of wear pattern you claim on the front (or rear) tires. The OEM Bridgestones were high performance summer tires; they were replaced with a high performance all-season set. The latter set was replaced because one tire suffered an irreparable puncture and the tires were six years old and worn down to 5/32nds tread depth. Better to go for an entire new set for peace of mind. I'm not going to skimp on tires.

 

[Slater]

That's not been my experience with my staggered fitment sports coupe where the tires simply can't be rotated. I've replaced the tires twice (four at a time) and have not seen the type of wear pattern you claim on the front (or rear) tires. The OEM Bridgestones were high performance summer tires; they were replaced with a high performance all-season set. The latter set was replaced because one tire suffered an irreparable puncture and the tires were six years old and worn down to 5/32nds tread depth. Better to go for an entire new set for peace of mind. I'm not going to skimp on tires.

I agree but think most sports cars have a different suspension configuration & alignment specs / setting to compensate for this..
stiffer more accurate suspension / less up & down swing changes keeps things more in its optimum happy place...
Vs
the everyday grocery getter / truck that is suppose to do it all
Also how many people have smashed into a side of a curb, or hit a huge pothole numerous times between alignments....
You think you alignment is good, still drives straight, etc...
5k rotates will help with more even tire wear, less outside tire feathering / cupping, overall less inside tire wear....

 

[zaqxsw]

I spent 35 years making, or indirectly making, tires. Over a half a century driving on them.

How you handle a new set of tires dictates a lot. If you're going to buy a new set of tires, always get a good alignment done by a reputable outfit before or at the same time. You then want to rotate them every oil change (5k miles or less) by crossing over the idling tires to the drive axle. The previous drive tires move straight back/forward to the idling axle.

For front wheel drive: LR to RF / RR to LF. RF went to RR and LF went to LR. Do this until you have had the new tires on all four positions (initial installation + 3 rotations). I've never had a rotation where they did not re-balance the tires going to the front axle.

After that every 7-10k.