Top Ten Things We Don't See On The Board

[Donner]

REW--

Ready for a new adventure. I guess that is the key to the whole thing. Sounds like you are reved up and good to go. Keep your flaps up and good luck! Keep posting on your thoughts as you get to take off speed. Let us know what it is like.

Donner

 

[haha]

Donner, I may have missed it, but have you ever said anything about how old you are, what you do for a living-(my guess is bureaucrat of the word using variety); what sort of pension you have or don't have, or anything else that would put your well crafted posts in a more personal context?

To me they read like an Op-Ed piece, or "something to get some discussion going."

Mikey

 

[uncledrz]

Donner
not quite sure how to insert a link, this address is to an article written by Paul Farrell.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/paulfarrell.htm

One point in the article has always struck me:

"Lesson #3: When it's time to go ... you'll know

The moment will come when you know, deep in your soul. It'll be crystal clear, after weeks, even years of thinking about it. A sudden turning point! You're a teacher. Nurse. Programmer. Lawyer. Doing stuff you can do well until you die. But you're not happy, not fulfilled.
You want to write a book. Travel the world. Be a pastry cook. Run a flower shop. Something tugs at you and cries to break free. It can't be denied. But you hold back. You'll know when to go - suddenly and when you least expect it. Today? Trust me, you'll know."

Yes there is the fear of the leap, and every question that you have asked is one to consider. But when it is time, you'll know.

Uncledrz

 

[dex]

Donner,
Good post and question. I agree with you that you can learn from failures and from successes. I also think people generallly don't like to talk about their failures. How often do you hear that from a friend "Boy, I lost a bundle on xyz stock."

If you go to a discussion board about a particular pick up truck most of the post you will read is about problems with the truck and you would get the idea the truck is a lemon. How many times would a person who hasn't had any problems post that it works great. It is the reverse on this board. If you were unsuccessful in ER you would post and leave.

Another aspect -- and I'm guessing here -- is that most of the people on this board are men who seem to have a technical and managerial background. If it was domintated by women with social services backgrounds there would be a different feel to the board.

Well its 7:30am - time for a shower and off to work.

 

[unclemick]

Layed off - the boom and thunder days, beat the Ruskies to Space days were long gone, new technology pace was down to bumping along, evolving slowly, and the enthusiasm to move across country to chase the rabbit wasn't there anymore. I was a wagonmaker and the auto is in it's infancy.

The light bulb had come on - the full mental adjustment took about a year.

If manned space lights up to go back to the Moon and or Mars - I'll beg to get a job as a janitor to participate.

Time and tide - cycle of history - all that stuff.

 

[unclemick]

Hmmm

Thirty years of sporadic failure - being a legend in my own mind/total smuck - got me to: De Gaul and the Norwegian widow mantra.

Bogle, Ben Graham, DCA, balanced index funds.

I only mention the tip of the iceberg here, some penthouse living, sports cars, etc. - not the 'dry' periods recouping bad investments - or recounting 'now here was one of my super dumb investment moves.'

Heh, heh, heh

THAT - would be toooo painful - just grateful of lessons learned.

 

[newellcr]

"I feel a lot of empathy and concern for the Young Dreamers I see posting here.  Seems to me that many are quite naïve about what’s in store for them over time.  I think a lot of them think that they are going to jump into ER in 15 or 20 years with the same frame of reference they now have in their 20’s and 30’s.   But as the old pharts know, them bones gets to aching!  Life impedes.  "

Donner,

I enjoyed your post.  Would you be kind enough to expand upon the 'what's in store for them over time' and keeping the 'same frame of reference'?  Are you referring to something other than starting families, hard knocks, cracking bones, and the general changing of priorities/interests? 

Thanks,

Chris

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . One point in the article has always struck me:

"Lesson #3: When it's time to go ... you'll know

The moment will come when you know, deep in your soul. It'll be crystal clear, after weeks, even years of thinking about it. A sudden turning point! . . .

While I'm sure that this is true for some people, I don't think I've ever felt that kind of certainty about anything . . . certainly not about retirement.

I recall hearing similar advice during my life about getting married: "You'll know when the one right person in the world comes along." If I had waited for that kind of certainty I would still be looking and I've been very happily married for over 30 years.

 

[yakers]

SG said: I recall hearing similar advice during my life about getting married: "You'll know when the one right person in the world comes along." If I had waited for that kind of certainty I would still be looking and I've been very happily married for over 30 years.

Hey, I had that feeling of certainty. Now, in entering my second marrige I had less certainty, more maturity and more happiness. Been working for 12 years now. And its been good financially too. Certainty is not only overrated, its sometimes misleading.

 

[unclemick]

Same girlfriend for 29 years.

Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh.

Duh! What is certainty

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

www.nofeeboards.com
www.retireearlyhomepage.com
www.raddr-pages.com

 

[bow-tie]

"I feel a lot of empathy and concern for the Young Dreamers I see posting here.  Seems to me that many are quite naïve about what’s in store for them over time.  I think a lot of them think that they are going to jump into ER in 15 or 20 years with the same frame of reference they now have in their 20’s and 30’s.   But as the old pharts know, them bones gets to aching!  Life impedes.  "

Donner,

I enjoyed your post.  Would you be kind enough to expand upon the 'what's in store for them over time' and keeping the 'same frame of reference'?  Are you referring to something other than starting families, hard knocks, cracking bones, and the general changing of priorities/interests?  Thanks, Chris

Donner, as a younger cat this stuck out to me, as well. Please expound on it if you would, please? Or anyone else, for that matter...

 

[LEX]

The uncertainty of "making the commitment" to ER is real. However, the oppurtunity cost of putting off personal freedoms and fulfillment in a self directed life outside of working on someone elses agenda in the effort of earning and spending is immutably real. As we have all heard, no one regrets that they just didn't spend enough time at the office when they are surrounded by family in their death bed... I suggest that one of the prerequisites to full ownership of ones life is the personal courage to live it well in uncertain times.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Maybe, I'm not old enough (close to 54), but I have the same frame of reference that I had in my 20's and 30's. Granted my tastes are a bit more expensive now, but my places that I want to travel to are longer now than when I was 30. I want to try more exotic foods, destinations, and experiences now than ever before.

This may come from Traveling a lot while I was working, and experiencing new things. Always planning the next trip and looking down the road. Once a homebody always a homebody.

When my joints have frozen up for good - maybe mid 80's or so, I'll be able to sit in a rocker on the porch in the evenings with a Single Malt Scotch Manhatten and recount the 'good old days' - But until then, I'm gonna make memories for the next 30 years (God Willing) - Big Fish, Big Lies and the pictures to prove them. 8)

Cut-Throat, I hope that all of your wishes come to pass. Truly!
I too am planning new adventures, which of course will be duly
reported here And, I've done my share of traveling. However,
at age 60, I no longer care to travel as much, and the main
ER activities I had looked forward to are gone. It's mostly
health issues, and anything I am dealing with can strike anyone
at any age. Some are just luckier than others. I have no complaints.
My only point is that lots of youngsters don't get it. Life is short.
Whatever time you get is luck. Make the most of it, because
at any time (unknown to you) it could all be over.

JG

 

[Nords]

My point is, it would be nice to have a little OR on ER.

Are we not reading any of the books?  Zelinski, Terhorst, Burns, Bernstein... et al?  What about the Trinity study or any of the lifestyle gurus?  I think Dominguez' example is a pretty potent warning on the dangers of ER via Treasuries.  I think that there are plenty of authors who've done post-mortems on failed ERs.  (In fact, any author who publishes a book while in ER should probably do their own autopsy.)  What are you looking for, a peer-reviewed article in the Journal of Operations Research?

I realize that it is a pretty difficult thing to achieve in a format such as a message board.  Probably impossible.

I've done a few autopsies on friends of mine who just don't get it (or who think I don't get it either).  Cut-Throat, John Galt, TH, & Unclemick have done the same.  Sorry that I don't have an advanced OR degree but I have taken a few courses on the subject, and I think that TH has educated us all on the business science of conducting studies.  So again, what are you looking for?

I feel a lot of empathy and concern for the Young Dreamers I see posting here.  Seems to me that many are quite naïve about what’s in store for them over time.  I think a lot of them think that they are going to jump into ER in 15 or 20 years with the same frame of reference they now have in their 20’s and 30’s.

Hey, Cut-Throat, I'm with you.  Geez, Donner, I'm only 44 and you're depressing ME.  Lighten up a little.  I entered ER in the same frame of mind as my 20s, and many of my alleged friends tell me that I still have that level of maturity. 

As we pointed out on your inaugural post, this is not rocket science.  Determine your expenses.  Save 25x that amount for a 4% SWR.  Take a sabbatical or unpaid leave or a long vacation and test-drive ER.  Check those expense numbers one or two more times (perhaps with TH's handy appliance-replacement budget numbers) and figure out if your portfolio is adequately capitalized.  If it is and you feel that you can handle it, then ER.  If it works, great!  If not, make a spouse compromise or volunteer at a charity or even get another (*gasp*) job. 

But don't sit there fully employed, especially with YOUR impression of non-discretionary expenses, and expect to have the credibility to complain about ER naivete, concern, or empathy.  We're doing just fine.  Come on in-- the water's great.  Do it while you have enough life left to enjoy it...

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Are we not reading any of the books?  Zelinski, Terhorst, Burns, Bernstein... et al?  What about the Trinity study or any of the lifestyle gurus?  I think Dominguez' example is a pretty potent warning on the dangers of ER via Treasuries.  I think that there are plenty of authors who've done post-mortems on failed ERs.  (In fact, any author who publishes a book while in ER should probably do their own autopsy.)  What are you looking for, a peer-reviewed article in the Journal of Operations Research?
I've done a few autopsies on friends of mine who just don't get it (or who think I don't get it either).  Cut-Throat, John Galt, TH, & Unclemick have done the same.  Sorry that I don't have an advanced OR degree but I have taken a few courses on the subject, and I think that TH has educated us all on the business science of conducting studies.  So again, what are you looking for?
Hey, Cut-Throat, I'm with you.  Geez, Donner, I'm only 44 and you're depressing ME.  Lighten up a little.  I entered ER in the same frame of mind as my 20s, and many of my alleged friends tell me that I still have that level of maturity. 

As we pointed out on your inaugural post, this is not rocket science.  Determine your expenses.  Save 25x that amount for a 4% SWR.  Take a sabbatical or unpaid leave or a long vacation and test-drive ER.  Check those expense numbers one or two more times (perhaps with TH's handy appliance-replacement budget numbers) and figure out if your portfolio is adequately capitalized.  If it is and you feel that you can handle it, then ER.  If it works, great!  If not, make a spouse compromise or volunteer at a charity or even get another (*gasp*) job. 

But don't sit there fully employed, especially with YOUR impression of non-discretionary expenses, and expect to have the credibility to complain about ER naivete, concern, or empathy.  We're doing just fine.  Come on in-- the water's great.  Do it while you have enough life left to enjoy it...

And always remember.............you're not paranoid if people
really are out to get you and steal your money. Watch out for yourself man; no one else is going to take on the task.

JG

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Studies arent a business or a science, they're an art form. Its actually easy art. Anyone will swallow a bar or pie chart hook line and sinker 99% of the time with no question whatsoever as to the origin. Its especially helpful if the information is either highly believable or so unbelievable that its controversial.

My budget stuff/appliance replacement needs to be adjusted in one way. If you buy a General Electric appliance, you need to budget to buy a different manufacturers model 15 months later.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Studies arent a business or a science, they're an art form.  Its actually easy art.  Anyone will swallow a bar or pie chart hook line and sinker 99% of the time with no question whatsoever as to the origin.  Its especially helpful if the information is either highly believable or so unbelievable that its controversial.

My budget stuff/appliance replacement needs to be adjusted in one way.  If you buy a General Electric appliance, you need to budget to buy a different manufacturers model 15 months later.

When I was working, I used to say that most people will automatically
believe anything printed off a computer. I think it's probably still true.

JG

 

[Nords]

Studies arent a business or a science, they're an art form.

Hmmm, if you're producing something for personal pleasure with no hope of fiscal remuneration, I'd call it art.

If you're producing something in the hope of profiting from its use, then I'd call it business.

However, you've educated me on how to raise the business of scientific studies to an art form!

 

[haha]

Hey, Cut-Throat, I'm with you.  Geez, Donner, I'm only 44 and you're depressing ME.  Lighten up a little.  I entered ER in the same frame of mind as my 20s, and many of my alleged friends tell me that I still have that level of maturity. 

My son says I am 16 going on 64. (This is not exactly a compliment.) Now 16 going on 65, I guess. Who would want to ER if they didn't have energy to act?

Re: Donner's empathy, etc. Methinks Donner just likes to hear himself talk. He talks really good, too. 

Other good ER books are any by Gillette Edmunds. He claims that bad investment decisions are more likely to wreck an ER than living a bit over budget.

Mikey

 

[Donner]

Chris and Bow Tie--

         Took the time to prepare a long and thoughtful response to your query about what I mean when I say young people are naive about what life has in store for you.
But somehow I dumped it.  Save early, save often.  So I'm gonna give you the short version.

         Your health will pass you by, eventually.  First the eyes go, then the legs, then the wind.  Then the docs will get ahold of you and its all downhill from there.  Take a good look at your parents.  That's you you're looking at.  One day you will look in the mirror and say "Dang! I look just like the old man!"

          In your 20s and 30s you have a set of interests, pursuits and pleasures that are appropriate for your age.  For most adults, these interest, pursuits and pleasures mature and change.  A person my age, 57, can have an appreciation of what a 27 year old is experiencing because we have been there and done that, so to speak.  But it doesn't work in reverse.  Just can't is all.  

           For most people, as they age and go through the normal life cycles of raising a family they find that life brings with it a set of encumbrances.  These are not all bad and they go with being a part of society.  Your life circumstances at 57 are going to be a hell of a lot different then at 27.  And your outlook on life is going to be a hell of lot different too.    Think about it.

           ER planning in your 20s and 30s, for most people in the mainstream, has got to be preliminary and tentative.  Get a plan for regular savings and investment and stick with it.  But you are looking way down the line at a world that doesn't even exist yet. That is looking through a glass darkly.  All I can say, from my own experience, is that life has a way of getting complicated on you in ways you never conceived of when you were 27.  So, yeah, you are, due to your age and relative experience in life, naive about what life has in store for you.  But naive ain't a bad thing.  Its a young thing,

Donner

           




           

         

 

[Donner]

Mikey--

I am 57 and DW is 59. Both now eligible for Fed annuities under FERS retirement system. That will be a partially COLA'd pension based on 1% for each year of service times the high three adjusted for survivor annuity. Good but not great. Health benefits not bad if you join an HMO. Blue Cross fee for service plan is getting stingier and stingier. Have to fight with them all the time. Both eligible for SS at 62. Have a 401(k) like vehicle called the Thrift Savings Plan which is very low cost but limited options.

Won't beat this dead horse cause we done that already but.... My circumstances are such that the two big gorillas in my retirement living room are going to be a mortgage and significant health care costs. Gonna boost my cash flow rrequirement. Also have some discretionary expenses which many, many on this board are incredulous over and can't get past. To that I say, to each his own, to each his own.
I must say there are some hobbies, past times and discretionary pecadillos I have observed on this Board that make me wonder, too. But I am not going to get in that mud pit.

Suffice it to say that my retrirement planning centers around accumulating enough annual purchasing power, with some cushion for the unexpected financial setback, to maintain Mrs. D and me in place, at the standard of living which we presently enjoy. LBYM is an option, of course. But why? If you want to LBYM, go for it.
I'd rather keep working just a little while longer to not have to go there. Just me I guess.

As far as me liking to hear myself talk.... Well, what I am really trying to do is elicit useful information that can inform my retirement planning. To be honest with you, sometimes that is like pulling teeth around here. Mostly, its the same old yadda, yadda, by the same set of smug old pharts who have an inflated sense of their superior brand of living and investment expertise. Actually, I think some of these guys are feeling a little vulnerable. Maybe they have good reason to.

Donner

 

[Nords]

Well, what I am really trying to do is elicit useful information that can inform my retirement planning. To be honest with you, sometimes that is like pulling teeth around here.

It's all around you. If you haven't gleaned what you need by now then it may not exist. I suspect overcomplification. But one way or another we all stop working someday.

Mostly, its the same old yadda, yadda, by the same set of smug old pharts who have an inflated sense of their superior brand of living and investment expertise.

Well, you can include me in that category. I think it comes from experience, the most superior "inflated sense" of all. But I'll let ex-Jarhead, Cut-Throat, John Galt, and Ol' Rancher take it from here.

For most adults, these interest, pursuits and pleasures mature and change.  

No matter how many birthdays I have, Donner, I don't think I'll ever be as old as you!

 

[Nords]

Upon further reflection...

... perhaps your answer lies in financial blogs.  Here's a list from the end of the article:

http://seekingalpha.com/. The mother of all investment blogs with links to everything stock market, venture capital and economics.

http://pfblog.com/  A big, busy blog by a 29-year-old seeking to retire at age 40 with at least $1 million.  It's full of personal finance and investing tips, well organized, with links to many, many other money blogs.

http://www.soundmoneytips.com/2005/04/the_personal_fi.html  This is a list of most financial blogs. It's also a money tips blog of its own, that appears to have a writer AND an editor. Consequently, it's shorter, snappier, and smarter than a lot of the competition.

http://allthingsfinancial.blogspot.com  A fee-only financial planner's musings on stocks, savings, inspirational books and more.

http://frugalforlife.blogspot.com  Where the self-proclaimed cheapskates chill.

Maybe this thread on intercst's board has ER failure lessons. I've also read that WorkWayLess on TMF ER'd and returned to work due to healthcare costs, but the details are on probably on TMF.

40,000 new blogs a day and dozens of discussion boards.  The answers are out there somewhere...

(EDITED on 12 May to add the intercst link.)

 

[haha]

Suffice it to say that my retrirement planning centers around accumulating enough annual purchasing power, with some cushion for the unexpected financial setback, to maintain Mrs. D and me in place, at the standard of living which we presently enjoy.  LBYM is an option, of course.  But why?  If you want to LBYM, go for it.
I'd rather keep working just a little while longer to not have to go there.  Just me I guess.Donner

Donner, I think this is a perfectly good plan. Some people prefer freedom now, even if they have to kind of wing it, or may have to at some future time. Others prefer their ducks in a row.

It's just that most here would feel fine with much less security than you apparently have, so perhaps the level of assurance that you are seeking is not likely to be found here, partlly because you may tend to discount the experiences and viewpoints of "us old farts."

Mikey