What is a Moderate Income?

[region2]

Only certain teachers in certain states do not pay FICA and are not eligible for SS. My DW teacher in MN will receive a COLA'd pension and SS.

 

[farmerEd]

Is there some reason they shouldn't be paid comparably?

Because they only have to work about 1100 hours per year as compared to most people who have to work 2000...

 

[Cut-Throat]

I have always been a big supporter of teachers. Lately teachers have made great strides into being a great paid profession. Not because they have received huge raises, mostly because all other workers in the middle class have been screwed every year for the last 20 years. Reduced medical benefits, eliminated pensions, raises that don't keep up with inflation, increased work hours etc. etc.

The teaching gig looks pretty good today. - I know a lot of teachers that are retired at age 55. They drive Porsches, eat in the best restuarants, Travel Worldwide. They have a very good life. Did not have to save too much when teaching because they have a COLA pension, medical care. - Have had summers off since I've known them for over 25 years.

 

[gwix98]

This is an excellent question. I too want to know because I know many people making around $100K and it's tough to have a fairly decent standard of living (nice well-furnished house in a middle class neighborhood, nice cars and at least a nice vacation every year). Could $100K do this?

Absolutely. Especially if you are in your 50's and have planned and saved for many years.
DW and I are just reaching this point. Years of living modestly, saving diligently and
realizing that you can't have it all.

We drive 10 year old Toyotas, live in a very comfortable home (but avg for the area),
and take a couple of nice trips a year.

But, probably the biggest factor is that we have had 25 years of continuous employment.

 

[2B]

I'm not a teacher, nor did I ever want to be. But the last time I checked, working as a teacher required the same level of education and (at least for the good ones) dedication as, say, an engineer, architect, accountant, or other professional. Is there some reason they shouldn't be paid comparably?

Please go back to whatever you were smoking.

The level of commitment and academics required to achieve any one of the professions you mentioned far exceed what is required to get a degree in elementary education or certified to teach any high school subject. Having put 3 kids through college (one in Education) I can say that there isn't a valid comparison. Now if you wanted to throw in most liberal arts degrees and "pure" science/math BS degrees, I'll agree. There is generally a glut of teacher candidates in most areas (other than inner cities for "other" reasons) of the country for most subjects. The only "shortage" is in science and math because there people with the right skills have better paying options. Try suggesting paying these areas more money and watch the teacher union firestorm.

In my "between jobs period" recently, I had a long term substitute assignment in a high school. It was easy and was generally a low stress job. It paid much less than I was getting but I was out of work and it was the best I could get at the time. I could have become a full time math teacher with "emergency" certification but I got a job back in my area for a lot more money.

CT's comments are interesting because certain states (he's in a good liberal state that loves to kiss up to all unions) pay teachers very well. This creates an even bigger glut of teachers with students looking at the big dollars if they can just be hired. I have two siblings that are educational types in Washington State. They both say that there is a big push to replace experienced teachers (seniority with higher pay) with new grads. My stupid brother quit his job before officially getting a new one (that fell through) and can't get hired because (he thinks) his seniority would require a higher pay. My sister who is a working teacher confirms this. She says there are regular attempts to "encourage" high seniority teachers to leave.

 

[youbet]

She says there are regular attempts to "encourage" high seniority teachers to leave.

The "encouragement" is cash buyout packages or the addition of years to your age and seniority in the pension calculation, such as the recent Illinois 5 + 5 offer which encouraged many senior teachers to leave.

 

[InTheFlow]

Thanks for all the input! Within the past two years I have just learned the many positives of living below our means. The thing is; now that my wife and I have tasted what we consider to be 'the good life', we don't want to go back!

Over all I'd say that is a good thing. However, when it comes to buying a home that does not cost higher than what we are currently paying for rent, it becomes challenging to even find one in our area. I will say though that due to the buyers market going on right now, we are at least finding homes within the price range we like.

 

[bosco]

Because they only have to work about 1100 hours per year as compared to most people who have to work 2000...

clearly you've never spent much time with a teacher. Or at least a good one.

 

[youbet]

The only "shortage" is in science and math because there people with the right skills have better paying options.

There are shortages other than science and math. Special Ed teachers with certifications in behavior disorders and various learning disorders are in demand. Also, various therapists such as speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, etc. are in short supply within the public school systems.

 

[sgeeeee]

What is a Moderate Income?

Less than a high income but more than a low income.

Does that help?



If that isn't specific enough, any poster on the board is invited to send me recent tax returns and I will evaluate them and let you know whether your income is moderate or not. This service will cost only $19.95 per person or family.

 

[2B]

There are shortages other than science and math. Special Ed teachers with certifications in behavior disorders and various learning disorders are in demand. Also, various therapists such as speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, etc. are in short supply within the public school systems.

From my stint as a long term sub, I saw a turnover in Special Ed by either quitting for a non-teaching job or getting certified in some other subject and teaching that. I was told that special ed is the easiest certification to get but that most people burn out in 3 years or less. I didn't see any 40+ year olds doing it. As for the other things you listed, I don't consider them teachers but "other professions" that happen to work for a school district. My SIL is a speech therapist. You are correct that they get teacher benefits.

 

[farmerEd]

clearly you've never spent much time with a teacher. Or at least a good one.

Actually I have...being the chairperson of the regional school committee in which I live gives me plenty of time with teachers and the school system...(and because I've seen the school system close up I homeschool all my children)...1100 hours per year would be the MAX most teachers would work...there is only 180 school days, about 6 hours work per school day, ALL the teachers take every single one of their sick/personal days they have coming, and if you want them to do 5 extra minutes work beyond what the contract requires...in comes the union. Don't tell me I haven't spent much time with teachers...I've spent plenty (and thus the homeschooling).

Schools are run for the benefit of the teachers first and foremost...most teachers will do right by the kids ONLY AFTER they get what they want...when push comes to shove if its a choice between doing whats right for the kids, or right for the teachers, the teachers and their unions will ALWAYS put their priorities first and screw the kids - I've got plenty of exampes.

 

[windsurf]

Old Mac:Schools are run for the benefit of the teachers first and foremost...most teachers will do right by the kids ONLY AFTER they get what they want...when push comes to shove if its a choice between doing whats right for the kids, or right for the teachers, the teachers and their unions will ALWAYS put their priorities first and screw the kids - I've got plenty of exampes.
[/quote]



This is overgeneralized BS. I watched my wife leave every morning at 8:30 am and return home at 5:30 pm (half hour commute). MUch evening and weekend work. Over 25 tears, thousands of our money spent on materials. You are an angry, misinformed person who seems to hate the profession for actual reasons you don't specify. Yes, there are some crappy teachers but, on the average, I saw more productivity from them than I see in much of the corporate sector.

 

[farmerEd]

Any possibility you think being married to a teacher makes you more than a little biased? I'd say my position on the school committee, who sits in contract negotiations and see what really goes on gives me a much better and objective view of how schools are run then someone married to a teacher.

 

[Goonie]

Fight nice you two, or you're both going to the principal's office....and you'll miss your milk & cookies, too!!

 

[youbet]

From my stint as a long term sub, I saw a turnover in Special Ed by either quitting for a non-teaching job or getting certified in some other subject and teaching that.

Yep, it's a tough gig.

I was told that special ed is the easiest certification to get but that most people burn out in 3 years or less.

Not true ref the certification. Can't imagine how your sources came to that wrong conclusion. Ref burnout, yes it's a tough gig.

As for the other things you listed, I don't consider them teachers but "other professions" that happen to work for a school district. My SIL is a speech therapist. You are correct that they get teacher benefits.

Whether you consider therapists "teachers" or not is not the point. They are there in the schools, teaching the children, and are in very short supply. It's not just math and science teachers that are in short supply.

 

[youbet]

Any possibility you think being married to a teacher makes you more than a little biased? I'd say my position on the school committee, who sits in contract negotiations and see what really goes on gives me a much better and objective view of how schools are run then someone married to a teacher.

What is this "regional school committee?" Are you talking about what we refer to as the school board where the members are elected, hire and fire the school superintendent, set pay levels and policies, approve contracts, benefits and working rules, etc.? Or are you talking about something else?

Also, you keep throwing in the words "always" and "all" and that is taking away the credibility of your opinions. For example, in Illinois, as senior teachers responded to a state-sponsored buy-out plan by opting for early retirement, paying them for the huge number of unused sick days they had accumulated became a financial issue. That didn't sound like "all" teachers "always" use "all" their sick days!

 

[farmerEd]

A regioanl school committee is the school committee for a regional school...one that serves multiple towns - common in small towns where there are not enough students to make a school by themselves..

If those senior teachers got "bought out" of their sick days, then they *used* all of them...i.e. they got paid for them.

 

[youbet]

A regional school committee is the school committee for a regional school...one that serves multiple towns - common in small towns where there are not enough students to make a school by themselves..

OK, I understand the regional part. But, if your committee is the "school board" with the authority to hire and fire, set pay levels, work rules and policies, etc., and you are the chairperson, why are you running things this way? Don't take this personally, but gosh OldMcDonald, your school system is a reflection of YOU. YOU da man/woman. Were you just recently elected and haven't had time to grab the reigns and change things yet? Or perhaps no one else wants the job and you're just going through the motions? It seems like you're complaining up a storm about an organization you have authority to change. Am I misunderstanding?

If those senior teachers got "bought out" of their sick days, then they *used* all of them...i.e. they got paid for them.

OK, if that's your interpretation. I thought you were refering to a problem you were having with teacher attendance due to them using sick days.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Less than a high income but more than a low income.

Does that help?



If that isn't specific enough, any poster on the board is invited to send me recent tax returns and I will evaluate them and let you know whether your income is moderate or not. This service will cost only $19.95 per person or family.

That's not quite correct. A moderate income is when your salary is less than your brother in laws salary.

 

[FinanceDude]

Old Mac:Schools are run for the benefit of the teachers first and foremost...most teachers will do right by the kids ONLY AFTER they get what they want...when push comes to shove if its a choice between doing whats right for the kids, or right for the teachers, the teachers and their unions will ALWAYS put their priorities first and screw the kids - I've got plenty of exampes.




This is overgeneralized BS. I watched my wife leave every morning at 8:30 am and return home at 5:30 pm (half hour commute). MUch evening and weekend work. Over 25 tears, thousands of our money spent on materials. You are an angry, misinformed person who seems to hate the profession for actual reasons you don't specify. Yes, there are some crappy teachers but, on the average, I saw more productivity from them than I see in much of the corporate sector.

My parents are BOTH retired teachers, one at a technical college, one in public schools. I will be willing to act as mediator for all fights..........

 

[bosco]

Actually I have...being the chairperson of the regional school committee in which I live gives me plenty of time with teachers and the school system...(and because I've seen the school system close up I homeschool all my children)...1100 hours per year would be the MAX most teachers would work...there is only 180 school days, about 6 hours work per school day, ALL the teachers take every single one of their sick/personal days they have coming, and if you want them to do 5 extra minutes work beyond what the contract requires...in comes the union. Don't tell me I haven't spent much time with teachers...I've spent plenty (and thus the homeschooling).

sounds like a classic case of bad management getting the teachers' back up. I suggest a change in the regional school committee personnel.

I've had a few friends that were teachers. I've known a few bad ones but they were in the minority. Most I have seen were in by 7:30 or 8, out at 4:30 or so and their lunch "hour" was often spent with kids, tutoring or on he playground. They had evening functions, were often in the classroom on weekends, and fielded phone calls from parents on their own time. They were often in the school before their contracts started getting their classrooms and materials ready. Many frequently graded papers in the evening (I'm sure you checked all of this when you figured out the 1100 hours thing...)

If you had teachers working 1100 hours and behaving as you describe. it's called "work to rule" and it's a tactic they use to deal with heavy-handed or unfair administrators or school boards. I wonder what you did to get them that riled.... Even then, many won't participate because they'd rather be slaughtered like lambs by the anti-teacher admininstrators than harm kids.

One of the funniest examples I've seen of uninformed teacher-bashing was the school administration in northeastern Oregon that wouldn't allow teachers to collect their salaries over 12 months. The logic was "it's too diffiult to explain to people that teachers aren't really getting paid for not working in the summer and really getting the same pay."

Once again, I originally asked why teachers should make less than other comparably-educated professionals. You gave anecdotal arguments that basically amounted to "because all teachers are lazy." Do you have any better reasons? Some engineers, accountants, and managers are lazy too.

Don't get me wrong...I know there are bad teachers. I would like to see tenure ended. Pay teachers well, and boot them out the door if they can't teach. But don't use some half-witted exam to determine if they are good teachers or not--there are too many problems with that approach.

 

[macdaddy]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/03/29/boston_police_among_highest_paid_in_nation/

Anecdotally, I have a couple friends who have joined the Boston Police Department. If you want to work 60 hours/week 50 weeks/year you will make $80k+ your first year on the job. Some of the extra will come from overtime, detail work, or private jobs, but there is no shortage of decent paying work for these guys. A cop marries a teacher and presto you have a household pulling in $130k/year, which definitely seems like middle class around here. In the past, the wife may have stayed home to raise the kids. Now it seems like they all go back to work. Maybe that's part of the difference.

 

[kaudrey]

Astromedia said: Anyone above the 25% points in net worth on that chart is rich IMO, just a question of how rich. Do they, like Darcy, live in a huge mansion with many servants, a large estate with rent-paying tenants, enjoy sumptuous feasts, international travel, and the lastest chic fashions and luxe fabrics.

Well, I fall into that category. I'm 37. I am NOT rich, even if you'd like to consider me so. I am saving to retire early. I LBYM. I am lucky enough to have bought a townhouse 7 years ago outside of DC that is now worth about 2.5x what I bought it for. I could not afford to buy it now. I can't retire now, and won't be able to for 15 years or so. If I was rich, I could retire now.

So, no, I don't have a huge mansion, no servants, and I hate to shop and spend money on clothes. I DO have a passion for travel and go international about once every year and 1/2 or so, but that's about it. I save, I hope I can FIRE when I plan to, and I plan to retire to somewhere cheaper than here.

Karen

 

[bbuzzard]

Once again, I originally asked why teachers should make less than other comparably-educated professionals.

These are generalization that do not apply to all, but do apply to most teachers:

1) Job stability. Keep your nose clean and you have a job for life. I.e., the job is yours to lose. No worries about getting laid off because the company lost a big contract.
2) 10 weeks of summer vacation plus 4 weeks during the school year. Yes, teachers work outside of school hours, but so does everyone else in professional positions. The average teacher works MUCH less hours than the average private sector professional employee, I would estimate perhaps only 60-70% of what private sector professional employees work.
3) Pension and no SS. My FIL was a teacher. He retired at 53 with a $36,000/year pension plus healthcare in 1995. For this, he paid 8% of his salary into the retirement system for 30 years. I pay 8%, will pay it for 44 years, can't retire until 67, and will be lucky to get $15,000/year in SS. If I got the same return he got, my SS payment would be on the order of 100,000/year in today's dollars when I retire.
4) Comparing an BS in engineering and a BA in education is laughable. This is totally my opinion, with no scientific backup, but I am comfortable that 99% of engineering graduate could get a teaching degree, but less than 5% of teachers could get an engineering degree. Do you know anyone who dropped out of education because it was too hard? I don't either, but know that about 30% dropped out of my engineering class for this reason.
5) Politics. Yes, it still exist, but it is difficult to lose your job because someone doesn't like you. This is not true in the private sector.

I have enough teachers in my family to know that it has its challenges. However, teaching is still an attractive position for these and other reasons.