Why doctors die differently

But who does one have such conversations with?


You do not have to have the discussions with anyone .You just put them in your living will . Living wills are usually included with regular wills at minimum cost or you can download them free on the Internet . It is nice but very difficult to have that conversation . I have had it with my loved ones because I do not want the burden of making a choice on them .
 
You do not have to have the discussions with anyone .You just put them in your living will . Living wills are usually included with regular wills at minimum cost or you can download them free on the Internet . It is nice but very difficult to have that conversation . I have had it with my loved ones because I do not want the burden of making a choice on them .


Perhaps I'm confused...but aren't 'regular wills' usually not read until the individual is dead? Wouldn't that be a bit late for the living will?

omni
 
You do not have to have the discussions with anyone .You just put them in your living will . Living wills are usually included with regular wills at minimum cost or you can download them free on the Internet . It is nice but very difficult to have that conversation . I have had it with my loved ones because I do not want the burden of making a choice on them .

You are right but if you do not talk to someone about it ahead of time the people making decisions at a critical time may not know that you have a living will. If you think that having a copy on file with your primary physician will make it readily available when you are injured or seriously ill in an emergency room you are wrong. Working as a nurse I saw many cases where people did not know anything about their relative's living will. I also saw several cases where the patient apparently did not know or remember what was in their own living will.
 
Perhaps I'm confused...but aren't 'regular wills' usually not read until the individual is dead? Wouldn't that be a bit late for the living will?

omni

Living wills and Power of Attorney are used before death but usually made when a regular will is drafted.I hope this explains it .
 
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You are right but if you do not talk to someone about it ahead of time the people making decisions at a critical time may not know that you have a living will. If you think that having a copy on file with your primary physician will make it readily available when you are injured or seriously ill in an emergency room you are wrong. Working as a nurse I saw many cases where people did not know anything about their relative's living will. I also saw several cases where the patient apparently did not know or remember what was in their own living will.

Thanks ,I did talk with my loved ones about it because having been an RN in the OR for forty years I know the importance of that . I also have had personal experience with living wills .
 
Option 1 do nothing, 95% chance you are going to die in months not year

Well depending on the cancer & chemo drug you may not git an extra year. My uncle's prostate cancer had metastasized to his bones. His chemo option generally provided two months of more life. After hearing about the potential side effects he eschewed chemo for palliative care.

Methinks that qualitative measures should factor in as well a quantitative measures. If one is likely to feel crappy that extra period of time gained; it may not be worth the hassle.
 
Perhaps I'm confused...but aren't 'regular wills' usually not read until the individual is dead? Wouldn't that be a bit late for the living will?
Could happen that way. I'm fortunate that my parents have shared their wills, advanced directives and trust info for many years. And they meet with sis and I when they make changes/additions. On the other hand, my MIL hasn't shared anything, though she probably has no estate to speak of.

I guess if your family has not had the intergenerational discussions about such things, we should at least attempt to convene the discussion, though I realize that may not happen (and some feathers may be ruffled).

We have briefed our executor (BIL) about our will and advanced directives.

And I know when DW was hospitalized for something pretty serious a few years ago, the hospital asked for a copy of her advanced directive before surgery. I don't know if they would have demanded it or not (hope so), but we willingly provided hers. Hopefully that's a common practice, as jclarksnakes mentioned.
 
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Could happen that way. I'm fortunate that my parents have shared their wills, advanced directives and trust info for many years. And they meet with sis and I when they make changes/additions. On the other hand, my MIL hasn't shared anything, though she probably has no estate to speak of.

I guess if your family has not had the intergenerational discussions about such things, we should at least attempt to convene the discussion, though I realize that may not happen (and some feathers may be ruffled).

We have briefed our executor (BIL) about our will and advanced directives.

And I know when DW was hospitalized for something pretty serious a few years ago, the hospital asked for a copy of her advanced directive before surgery. I don't know if they would have demanded it or not (hope so), but we willingly provided hers. Hopefully that's a common practice, as jclarksnakes mentioned.


The only problem with advanced directive is that sometimes the hospital or doctor will not accept one that is 'old'... they want you to sign a new one that fits their preprinted form...

They do not demand it as some patients just do not want to fill one out...
 
Perhaps physicians generally have a better acceptance of the fact that life is ultimately a 'round-trip ticket' (or however you wish to phrase it). Far too much "care" is foisted on folks at/near end-of-life at huge cost not only in dollars but perhaps more importantly in pain/suffering & declines in functional status. Clearly otherwise healthy person having coronary bypass for ave (say) 10+yrs of quality life is good call. OTOH- If diagnosed with cancer, would you ALWAYS sign-on for complex treatment on promise of 50% longer life?? Most docs who have seen it before would rather live well for their last 6mo of life & die quietly at home vs suffer through surgery/chemo in hopes of 9mo survival. Life is about LIVING rather than mindless & ultimately futile avoidance of death.


To paraphrase Hunter Thompson- Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well-preserved body, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, shouting WOW what a ride!!!!
 
To paraphrase Hunter Thompson- Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well-preserved body, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, shouting WOW what a ride!!!!
I question the credibility of this philosophy if its originator couldn't even hang around for the end of the ride.

Although I must admit he chose to "die differently".
 
To paraphrase Hunter Thompson- Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well-preserved body, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, shouting WOW what a ride!!!!

I question the credibility of this philosophy if its originator couldn't even hang around for the end of the ride.

Although I must admit he chose to "die differently".

We do know how he went, but not his state of mind when he pulled the trigger.

This thread and the comments about Hunter T. remind me of a Lou Reed CD - Magic and Loss. A couple of the songs were about friends who apparently had attitudes (and lifestyles) similar to Thompson yet when they were diagnosed with terminal illness they became very conventional in their approach to treatment, not letting go and pursuing every medical option.

A very dark CD than can bring a dark cloud into the clearest sunny sky.
 
I question the credibility of this philosophy if its originator couldn't even hang around for the end of the ride.

Although I must admit he chose to "die differently".

If you prefer a sl different version from another author, let's try '80's motorcycle racer Bill McKenna-

Life is not a race to the grave trying to arrive safely in a pretty, well-preserved body, but to skid across that line broadside in a cloud of smoke screaming "Holy Sh#t, what a ride"!

AFAIK, Bill is still alive & well - albeit with some racing scars.

BTW- Sometimes people can still pursue great goals while doing chemo-
Creve Coeur woman completes Ironman while battling cancer | Newsmagazine Network

Clay Treska: The Most Courageous, Inspirational Person I’ve Ever Met | Home Post
 
My thoughts exactly. I have seen death many times, and I have also had to inform many patients that they have terminal cancer. Avoidance of death is futile, and this is one of the reasons why I intend to FIRE and LIVE this year, age 47.
Most docs who have seen it before would rather live well for their last 6mo of life & die quietly at home vs suffer through surgery/chemo in hopes of 9mo survival. Life is about LIVING rather than mindless & ultimately futile avoidance of death.
 
I have a feeling this is only going to get worse with time... there is talk now than longevity research by mid century will mean that people born prior to 2000 will be the last generations not to have a choice to live forever...

there is substantial evidence that through gene therapy aging can be stopped and even reversed (many think this will be a reality by 2050)...they are already extending the lives of some insects and small animals to be magnitudes longer than average. What you don't read about are the implications this will have on society and our bodies. What happens to our brains if we try to live 200+ years... what happens to our bones... our heart?

Medicine is a double edged sword... it does amazing things to prolong life and allow people to survive who years ago would never had stood a chance (my 4 month old daughter is one of them... she just underwent open heart surgery to correct a continental heart defect that was 100% fatal just a few years ago - she has a 95% chance of living a perfectly healthy normal life now with no complications)... but it also seems to make each generation more and more afraid of death.

Also introduces social stresses when ultimately we are faced with decisions... at what point is extending life worth it, when quality is reduced, and at what cost. How do you draw that line...
 
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I have a feeling this is only going to get worse with time... there is talk now than longevity research by mid century will mean that people born prior to 2000 will be the last generations not to have a choice to live forever...

there is substantial evidence that through gene therapy aging can be stopped and even reversed (many think this will be a reality by 2050)...they are already extending the lives of some insects and small animals to be magnitudes longer than average. What you don't read about are the implications this will have on society and our bodies. What happens to our brains if we try to live 200+ years... what happens to our bones... our heart?

Medicine is a double edged sword... it does amazing things to prolong life and allow people to survive who years ago would never had stood a chance (my 4 month old daughter is one of them... she just underwent open heart surgery to correct a continental heart defect that was 100% fatal just a few years ago - she has a 95% chance of living a perfectly healthy normal life now with no complications)... but it also seems to make each generation more and more afraid of death.

Also introduces social stresses when ultimately we are faced with decisions... at what point is extending life worth it, when quality is reduced, and at what cost. How do you draw that line...

Insightful. These metaphysical questions are clearly not answered by medical science.
BTW- Glad things turned out well for your daughter.
 
there is substantial evidence that through gene therapy aging can be stopped and even reversed (many think this will be a reality by 2050)...they are already extending the lives of some insects and small animals to be magnitudes longer than average. What you don't read about are the implications this will have on society and our bodies.

This will also help to keep the political debates lively. I can imagine the moral debates, for example, should people with 'life without parole' sentences be allowed the gene therapy to extend their life.

EvrClrx, I too am happy to hear that your daughter is OK.

-helen
 
I think from a patient/family point of view, part of the problem is they are exposed to stories of miraculous recoveries. People who were given no chance by their doctors to survive, but somehow do. So the patient/family then ask "Why not us?"

For every patient/family that experiences that miraculous recovery (bless their hearts), there are many many who are left with hoping for that miracle.
 
I think from a patient/family point of view, part of the problem is they are exposed to stories of miraculous recoveries. People who were given no chance by their doctors to survive, but somehow do. So the patient/family then ask "Why not us?"

For every patient/family that experiences that miraculous recovery (bless their hearts), there are many many who are left with hoping for that miracle.

Miraculous recovery?
You mean reversing all the 60+ years of deterioration so I am ~28 again?
Or just being old and in pain but Still Alive™ ?
 
Miraculous recovery?
You mean reversing all the 60+ years of deterioration so I am ~28 again?
Or just being old and in pain but Still Alive™ ?

By miraculous recovery, I'm mean those who were at death's door, given very low or no odds of pulling through, yet do.

For example, ones who may have survived an auto wreck where it was very touch and go for a while.
 
I think from a patient/family point of view, part of the problem is they are exposed to stories of miraculous recoveries. People who were given no chance by their doctors to survive, but somehow do. So the patient/family then ask "Why not us?"
For every patient/family that experiences that miraculous recovery (bless their hearts), there are many many who are left with hoping for that miracle.
That's like having the crowd cheer you on from the sidelines: "Just one more round of chemotherapy-- this time it'll be different, and this time we really mean it-- you can do it! Now get in there and win one for the Gipper!!"
 
That's like having the crowd cheer you on from the sidelines: "Just one more round of chemotherapy-- this time it'll be different, and this time we really mean it-- you can do it! Now get in there and win one for the Gipper!!"

I think the main thing is that ideally the patient, family and doctors are on the same page. Sometimes that isn't always the case which leads to very difficult decisions.
 
I think the main thing is that ideally the patient, family and doctors are on the same page. Sometimes that isn't always the case which leads to very difficult decisions.
I think that the doctors are typically leading the cheering crowd (made up of the family), and eventually they wear the patient down into trying "just one more time". I wouldn't accuse the medics of crossing the line into "misleading", but I'd certainly say that the focus leads to "false hope".

I can understand a patient developing the will to live through a birthday or a holiday or even just one more sunrise. But at some point the quality of the sunrise is affected by all the medical equipment between you and the window.

Meanwhile when the doctor is the patient, they have no trouble flipping off the crowd and heading for the locker room.

I'm a little cynical on this perspective. My father's finished five of six chemo sessions for multiple myeloma, and he came through with such flying colors and great results that the oncologist may stop there. Meanwhile my brother, who's been sitting with Dad through these visits to the chemo and the doctor(s), has noticed that Dad's health has now perked up to the point where he's realizing what it's like to live with Alzheimer's. Waking up nearly every morning with no idea where you are. Not being able to remember any of the names of the staff or the patients. Reading the newspaper or watching TV from habit, not with retention. Going out for Sunday lunch and having nearly verbatim the same conversation every week. Tomorrow it starts all over again. Groundhog Day with every sunrise seeing the script for the "first" time. And Dad's symptoms are considered "good" as far as Alzheimer's goes.

Dad's not exactly capable of what anyone would consider to be "informed consent". An eager medical professional could get him to agree to just about anything, at least until the chemo starts to hurt. What if the myeloma symptoms return in a few months? What if the oncologist comes back with a new wonder drug or a different protocol? My brother and I are considered capable of "informed consent", for whatever that's worth, and at some point this whole process has to cross the line from "getting healthy" to "heroic measures". Dad's medical directive is very clear about heroic measures, and I have a stack of his hand-written correspondence to back up that attitude.

At some point my brother and I have to decide whether it's really a good idea for Dad to be the world's healthiest Alzheimer's patient, or whether it's better to start loading up on the palliative measures. However multiple myeloma does not sound like an easy way to die. At this point it's hard to claim that there's any "quality of life" in either lifestyle. How does one balance the relative quanta of pain between the two approaches?

Keep in mind that my brother and I happen to agree on this. Even if I had my doubts, my brother is the guy charged with the responsibility of making the decisions. It's my job to back him up and help us get figure it out, not obstruct the discussion or the decision. But we're just not sure how to have the conversation with the care facility or the oncologist. This is why I end up reading so many books on the situation and nudging my brother to get to know the care facility's hospice staff.

Last week was Dad's one-year anniversary in the care facility. 54 weeks ago he came within 30 minutes of dying on the operating room table from a perforated ulcer. From what I've been able to reconstruct of his files, he had cognitive-impairment symptoms as early as mid-2008. He lived independently for nearly three years until his cognition sharply declined and he could no longer live the way he preferred. I think that ever since he went to the ER with that ulcer, he's been living on borrowed time. Not that he can tell.

I don't have any answers to this conundrum. I'm hoping to have a clue before we have to make a decision. Maybe events will help cue us into it. My worst fear is that Dad falls and breaks a hip, forcing a quick discussion/decision about the next step. Or maybe at this point, that's Dad's best hope.
 
...

At some point my brother and I have to decide whether it's really a good idea for Dad to be the world's healthiest Alzheimer's patient, or whether it's better to start loading up on the palliative measures. However multiple myeloma does not sound like an easy way to die. At this point it's hard to claim that there's any "quality of life" in either lifestyle. How does one balance the relative quanta of pain between the two approaches?...

I experienced this with my friend's situation recently and with mother years ago. As difficult it is to ask, I think one has to ask "Are we continuing the treatment for over loved one's sake or for our own?" I remember with my friend, I was talking to her daughter (her daughter had the health care directive). It was so painful to see my friend have to go through what she had to endure, yet at the same time, her daughther and myself agree, we had to try. Finally, my friend's condition had diminished so much that her daughter and family decided, no more suffering. Yet, even then, it was so heartbreaking to let go.
 
Odds are (given family history) I'm going to have a stroke at some point.
When the 18 year old cat had a stroke at ~1AM I took him to the vet to be put down at 8AM.
They kept Mother alive for ~6 weeks and her brother for ~8 months.
Just wish there was some way to assure the first stroke was the last one.
 
Odds are (given family history) I'm going to have a stroke at some point.
When the 18 year old cat had a stroke at ~1AM I took him to the vet to be put down at 8AM.
They kept Mother alive for ~6 weeks and her brother for ~8 months.
Just wish there was some way to assure the first stroke was the last one.
Maybe you can cut a deal with the vet... :)
 
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