davismills
Recycles dryer sheets
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- Dec 6, 2012
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I wish you well and am sad to see your goodbye note. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. You have helped more than you will ever know!
Sharing 23 years of Frugal Retirement
- Thread starter imoldernu
- Start date
DatumPoint5
Recycles dryer sheets
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2014
- Messages
- 170
I do not think it was a "good bye" note. That is just his unique way of talking. I believe he is still posting from time to time on other forums, and, I believe he will return to this one as time allows.
ExFlyBoy5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Well, the title of his post was "good bye". I certainly hope he returns, but perhaps not. He certainly has added a lot of great information to this forum.
Conscience and Medicaid
First... thank you all for the kind words.
After 6 years of wordy posts, my instinct was to not overstay my welcome as my retirement experience may not be as applicable in today's financial environment.
A recent article about reduced support for medicaid triggered memories of older posts wherein I had outlined planning a safety net for extreme medical expenses in the later years. The last post concerning this was here:
http://www.early-retirement.org/for...of-frugal-retirement-62251-4.html#post1899979
This was preceded by two earlier posts, #146 and #150... which outlined the planning for handling potential long term care costs.. in short, where a married couple should keep ownership of the primary home, so that a long term care expense (commonly $70K to $100K for one year) would not cause the healthy person to have to spend the full amount, but that after depleting the couples assets, the partner could keep the home, and that medicaid would pay for the long term care expense... and that the state would not come after the (owned home), until that person passed away, and where the state would place a lien on the house, to pay for the medicaid expenses incurred.
Too complicated to think about now,....?right?... Hmmm... Maybe not.
My experience here in our CCRC has now seen a dozen or more cases, where
the "healthy' couple sold their home, and were forced to pay for long term care... selling down the $$$ assets from the house sale, and leaving the healthy partner with no place to live, and minimal Social Security payments, hardly enough to survive on.
Referring to the linked post, it appeared that there would be a change on State financing for Medicaid, sometime in the future. Now this is happening. and the outlook is bleak at best... per this recent situation in Maine, and Ohio, where legislation is threatening massive cutbacks in medicaid.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...s-runs-deep/Ln8l9JNi2foxq5yPpgqACL/story.html
The long and short of this problem means that a 10 year stay in a nursing facility, could cost from $600K to $1M. In the 69 units in our CCRC, more than half of the residents have been there for more than 5 years.
Here's a real-life article from the NYT that puts the problem in perspective
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/science/medicaid-cutbacks-elderly-nursing-homes.html
Medicaid pays for most of the 1.4 million people in nursing homes. It covers 20 percent of all Americans and 40 percent of poor adults.
Our admissions office is now recommending elderlaw and financial advisors be consulted to prepare separate assets trusts to reduce the risk of losing everything.
The point here is: That the legal protection must be in place for five years before the need... because of the 5 year lookback
If you're sitting on a nest egg of millions, and don't plan to leave anything to the kids, this is probably one you can ignore, but to put a point on the subject, two of my current friends (age mid 60's) are caught in this conundrum, with wives in the nursing home, and my friends' assets being spent at a rapid rate, and with no safety net, because they had sold their homes, and were renting... all of this while Illinois is still offering medicaid.
The warning is there, as more states are teetering on the massive reductions in medicaid spending.
The above is my interpretation only... but thought it important enough to bring an update. The number of persons now living in care units is growing by quantum leaps, and government financial help for the elderly is not only not keeping up, but quickly being reduced.
...............................................................................
For those were wondering if I might have passed away, not so, just slower and dealing with more memory problems, but still reasonably able to get around, and spending more and more time volunteering in the community running several weekly activities... (we're taking a try at Bocce Ball next week)... wondering if my friends will be able to play using their walkers an wheel chairs...
going to give it a try...
regards,
bob
First... thank you all for the kind words.
After 6 years of wordy posts, my instinct was to not overstay my welcome as my retirement experience may not be as applicable in today's financial environment.
A recent article about reduced support for medicaid triggered memories of older posts wherein I had outlined planning a safety net for extreme medical expenses in the later years. The last post concerning this was here:
http://www.early-retirement.org/for...of-frugal-retirement-62251-4.html#post1899979
This was preceded by two earlier posts, #146 and #150... which outlined the planning for handling potential long term care costs.. in short, where a married couple should keep ownership of the primary home, so that a long term care expense (commonly $70K to $100K for one year) would not cause the healthy person to have to spend the full amount, but that after depleting the couples assets, the partner could keep the home, and that medicaid would pay for the long term care expense... and that the state would not come after the (owned home), until that person passed away, and where the state would place a lien on the house, to pay for the medicaid expenses incurred.
Too complicated to think about now,....?right?... Hmmm... Maybe not.
My experience here in our CCRC has now seen a dozen or more cases, where
the "healthy' couple sold their home, and were forced to pay for long term care... selling down the $$$ assets from the house sale, and leaving the healthy partner with no place to live, and minimal Social Security payments, hardly enough to survive on.
Referring to the linked post, it appeared that there would be a change on State financing for Medicaid, sometime in the future. Now this is happening. and the outlook is bleak at best... per this recent situation in Maine, and Ohio, where legislation is threatening massive cutbacks in medicaid.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...s-runs-deep/Ln8l9JNi2foxq5yPpgqACL/story.html
The long and short of this problem means that a 10 year stay in a nursing facility, could cost from $600K to $1M. In the 69 units in our CCRC, more than half of the residents have been there for more than 5 years.
Here's a real-life article from the NYT that puts the problem in perspective
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/science/medicaid-cutbacks-elderly-nursing-homes.html
Medicaid pays for most of the 1.4 million people in nursing homes. It covers 20 percent of all Americans and 40 percent of poor adults.
Our admissions office is now recommending elderlaw and financial advisors be consulted to prepare separate assets trusts to reduce the risk of losing everything.
The point here is: That the legal protection must be in place for five years before the need... because of the 5 year lookback
If you're sitting on a nest egg of millions, and don't plan to leave anything to the kids, this is probably one you can ignore, but to put a point on the subject, two of my current friends (age mid 60's) are caught in this conundrum, with wives in the nursing home, and my friends' assets being spent at a rapid rate, and with no safety net, because they had sold their homes, and were renting... all of this while Illinois is still offering medicaid.
The warning is there, as more states are teetering on the massive reductions in medicaid spending.
The above is my interpretation only... but thought it important enough to bring an update. The number of persons now living in care units is growing by quantum leaps, and government financial help for the elderly is not only not keeping up, but quickly being reduced.
...............................................................................
For those were wondering if I might have passed away, not so, just slower and dealing with more memory problems, but still reasonably able to get around, and spending more and more time volunteering in the community running several weekly activities... (we're taking a try at Bocce Ball next week)... wondering if my friends will be able to play using their walkers an wheel chairs...
going to give it a try...regards,
bob
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brucethebroker
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Thanks for the update, Bob. And for the "heads up":
"Our admissions office is now recommending elderlaw and financial advisors be consulted to prepare separate assets trusts to reduce the risk of losing everything.
The point here is: That the legal protection must be in place for five years before the need... because of the 5 year lookback".
"Our admissions office is now recommending elderlaw and financial advisors be consulted to prepare separate assets trusts to reduce the risk of losing everything.
The point here is: That the legal protection must be in place for five years before the need... because of the 5 year lookback".
Amethyst
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2008
- Messages
- 12,668
I don't quite understand. I thought you owned your CCRC property, so what happened with these couples, and why did they sell their house if they were healthy? Or, were these people renting a unit in the CCRC, can no longer pay rent now that one of them is in LTC, and that's why there is no place left to live?
audreyh1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yeah - it’s confusing.
I don’t think you actually own property in a CCRC but somehow have right to stay and move into higher service facilities as needed.
Perhaps he was referring to couples he knows that were not in the CCRC?
Otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
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Teacher Terry
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 7,084
Bob, I love reading your posts. Keep them coming)
)Re: owning.. this can get confusing... In our CCRC, we DO own the villas (individual homes)... In the rest of the community... the apartments, assisted living, nursing home and Alzheimer units, payment is by monthly fee... (by the way, no "buy in").
So... here's what happened... Joe and Molly had lived in one of the villas. When Molly 's dementia reached a point where she could no longer live safely with Joe, she went to the Alzheimer unit. Joe sold the villa, and moved into the "Estates", where he rented, but had no ownership. The sale assets then became moneys that were part of Joe and Molly's estate , and were therefore fair game to be used to pay for Molly's care.
Had Joe kept the Villa, while the $$$ net worth assets would have been used to pay Molly's expenses, He would still have been allowed to keep the Villa until he died, at which time the state would have a lien on the value of the villa to pay off monies that would have gone to repay medicaid.
Though I am not sure of this, my "warning" is a follow up on what the admissions department of our CCRC, is advising... Separate trusts for Molly and Joe... before being forced by law to accept the negative aspects of joint ownership. Again, keeping in mind that this "separation" would have to be made 5 years previous to Molly's move to the Alzheimer unit.
If anyone has more up to date legal information on this general issue, it would be most appreciated.
Yeah... complicated and seemingly way off in the future, but after seeing some sad results of not understanding or looking ahead, I feel it deserves consideration.
So... here's what happened... Joe and Molly had lived in one of the villas. When Molly 's dementia reached a point where she could no longer live safely with Joe, she went to the Alzheimer unit. Joe sold the villa, and moved into the "Estates", where he rented, but had no ownership. The sale assets then became moneys that were part of Joe and Molly's estate , and were therefore fair game to be used to pay for Molly's care.
Had Joe kept the Villa, while the $$$ net worth assets would have been used to pay Molly's expenses, He would still have been allowed to keep the Villa until he died, at which time the state would have a lien on the value of the villa to pay off monies that would have gone to repay medicaid.
Though I am not sure of this, my "warning" is a follow up on what the admissions department of our CCRC, is advising... Separate trusts for Molly and Joe... before being forced by law to accept the negative aspects of joint ownership. Again, keeping in mind that this "separation" would have to be made 5 years previous to Molly's move to the Alzheimer unit.
If anyone has more up to date legal information on this general issue, it would be most appreciated.
Yeah... complicated and seemingly way off in the future, but after seeing some sad results of not understanding or looking ahead, I feel it deserves consideration.
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Glad your doing well ImOlder... The example of Dementia is a sad reminder that it is the spouse / Family that is really suffering. I want to move to Belgium, I do not want to be a burden to my DW and Daughter. But i understand that i need to have enough wits about me to understand that my Brain is not going to get any better, give me some juice and cut me loose. Or living with Stage 4 cancer for a year, why bother.
In the Netherlands and Belgium, euthanasia is understood as "termination of life by a doctor at the request of a patient".
In the Netherlands and Belgium, euthanasia is understood as "termination of life by a doctor at the request of a patient".
A, B, and C type CCRC's
Explanation of CCRC types, here:
Explanation of CCRC Contracts - my LifeSite
We're in a "C".
Explanation of CCRC types, here:
Explanation of CCRC Contracts - my LifeSite
We're in a "C".
Teacher Terry
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 7,084
The person with dementia often suffers terribly too. First when their mind is slowly going they suffer and even when totally gone they suffer. My good friend would pace the nursing home for hours on end and often could not sleep. We tried many different drugs to help her. She couldn't sit still enough to eat. The different drugs they tried sometimes had awful side effects and then I would make them change them. It was the longest almost 2 years of my life watching a wonderful person suffer. She would fight and scream when they tried to take off her clothes and shower her. I was so relieved when she died.
First... thank you all for the kind words.
...............................................................................
For those were wondering if I might have passed away, not so, just slower and dealing with more memory problems, but still reasonably able to get around, and spending more and more time volunteering in the community running several weekly activities... (we're taking a try at Bocce Ball next week)... wondering if my friends will be able to play using their walkers an wheel chairs...
regards,
bob
Your wisdom and insight is a breathe of fresh air. Especially the LTC subjects. You are one of the more insightful people that can give a realistic view of what to expect! I'm not saying your old...
Tnx for sticking with it.
ncbill
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I had a parent with a rarer form of dementia (sadly, often hits in your 40s) who spent the better part of a decade essentially bed-bound, requiring total care.
Since they were immobile they suffered regular infections, all of which were cleared up by nothing more than oral antibiotics...well, until the last infection.
So my health care POA specifies in case of dementia, no antibiotics.
I'm content to let the first infection be the last.
Anything goes for comfort care/pain control, of course, even if I literally have to be drugged unconscious.
It's much more complicated than that, and NL / Belgium have different regulation as well. Don't trust the English wikipedia article if that's your source, it's incomplete.
An example is that in NL you can have a declaration that contains future conditions under which you no longer wish to live. This one is intended to cover dementia. This is illegal in Belgium.
Another item to understand is the theory and the practice. Harder to gauge, but some persons (not always doctors) support the right to die with dignity, others don't. Taboo very much to talk about, put pushing a person over the edge out of compassion by adjusting medication does happen.
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30 year ER look back
If you've read parts of this thread, you know that imoldernu is financially unsavvy... backward if anything..
$$$ calculations are super simple, and figuring a future plan is based on two major factors... income and outgo. Here's the simplest part.
Income... $25k from SS, and yearly increase from I-Bonds of $15K.
Outgo today... $40K.
The house, untouched annuity, personal property, vehicles, and other properties have equaled or exceeded inflation, so that our net worth continues to be almost exactly the same, since our retirement in 1989. No earned income for 30 years.
Not suggesting this as a plan anyone else, but with a reasonable life expectancy of about 8 more years, and a continued frugal but comfortable lifestyle... investment is not part of our plan.
Quick review... School years 22, Working years 30, Retirement years so far 30. Retired @53. Took Social security @62. Most years no taxes. Spent IRA's and pension fund in early years. Only investment I-Bonds in the early 2000's. Living in CCRC regular home. Plan to live in the CCRC apartments when we decide to sell our home (no net COL difference)... Smallish long term care insurance, and small annuity.
Purpose of posting this? Just thought it could be interesting to those who intend to retire early to see a timeline of a look back to what actually happened, instead of a less sure projection of what might be coming in the future.
Would be laughable to Warren Buffet, but sheer happiness to bob and jeanie.
If you've read parts of this thread, you know that imoldernu is financially unsavvy... backward if anything.
. $$$ calculations are super simple, and figuring a future plan is based on two major factors... income and outgo. Here's the simplest part.
Income... $25k from SS, and yearly increase from I-Bonds of $15K.
Outgo today... $40K.
The house, untouched annuity, personal property, vehicles, and other properties have equaled or exceeded inflation, so that our net worth continues to be almost exactly the same, since our retirement in 1989. No earned income for 30 years.
Not suggesting this as a plan anyone else, but with a reasonable life expectancy of about 8 more years, and a continued frugal but comfortable lifestyle... investment is not part of our plan.
Quick review... School years 22, Working years 30, Retirement years so far 30. Retired @53. Took Social security @62. Most years no taxes. Spent IRA's and pension fund in early years. Only investment I-Bonds in the early 2000's. Living in CCRC regular home. Plan to live in the CCRC apartments when we decide to sell our home (no net COL difference)... Smallish long term care insurance, and small annuity.
Purpose of posting this? Just thought it could be interesting to those who intend to retire early to see a timeline of a look back to what actually happened, instead of a less sure projection of what might be coming in the future.
Would be laughable to Warren Buffet, but sheer happiness to bob and jeanie.
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audreyh1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yeah - this is confusing, because what one would expect from a CCRC is to avoid this scenario - but that would only be true if paid up front as some kind of initial buy-in fee. I guess the difficulty comes in selling property you live in if your funds for spouse’s care are dwindling. The instinctual thing to do is sell your home to cover expenses, but clearly not the best thing in this type of scenario.
Teacher Terry
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 7,084
Bob, since you still have your savings why didn’t you spend part of it to travel or do something else you desired? Is it important to leave money to the kids? If I am being too noisy just ignore me)
)to Terry..
About what we do and what we'd like to do....
Frankly, no longer have the interest in travel... more of a "been there, done that".
As to spending more? Part of that is just the frugality habit, but in truth, we don't even think about money. I suppose we could buy a new Mercedes, but why?... We still love our 20+ year old cars, and @ 2,000 miles per year, the new car wouldn't be practical.
We don't consciously consider whatever might be left. Our kids understand and agree with our philosophy.
....................................................................................
On a different subject... latched on to this older website that put my own situation in a light that I hadn't thought of before.... That is, "how younger people think of older persons".
It has a lot to do about statistics and money, and averages for older "senior" retirees. Surprisingly, I was able to find myself, and can now see more clearly what my kids must think about jeanie and me. Basically it gives some perspective on the 46 million people who are beyond retirement age, and many demographics that look ahead to what retirement will be like 10, 20 and 30 years from now.
https://blog.arborcompany.com/senior-living-by-the-numbers-5-stats-children-of-aging-parents-need-to-know?utm_campaign=Blog%20Subscription&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=63826922&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8Awu1WpxFLANA0zIx_A1KWDVLDPV9W5If7ItwQU7HmsPX4skhSAvkB1TpbR61BDHuRHVpqprLoQ7Y-sZ-EhehziQvbrg&_hsmi=63826922
Lots of links and free guidance.
While I'm here, and to avoid starting another thread, here's a website you might be able to use... Links to many retirement planning sources.
https://kadaza.com/retirement
About what we do and what we'd like to do....
Frankly, no longer have the interest in travel... more of a "been there, done that".
As to spending more? Part of that is just the frugality habit, but in truth, we don't even think about money. I suppose we could buy a new Mercedes, but why?... We still love our 20+ year old cars, and @ 2,000 miles per year, the new car wouldn't be practical.
We don't consciously consider whatever might be left. Our kids understand and agree with our philosophy.
....................................................................................
On a different subject... latched on to this older website that put my own situation in a light that I hadn't thought of before.... That is, "how younger people think of older persons".
It has a lot to do about statistics and money, and averages for older "senior" retirees. Surprisingly, I was able to find myself, and can now see more clearly what my kids must think about jeanie and me. Basically it gives some perspective on the 46 million people who are beyond retirement age, and many demographics that look ahead to what retirement will be like 10, 20 and 30 years from now.
https://blog.arborcompany.com/senior-living-by-the-numbers-5-stats-children-of-aging-parents-need-to-know?utm_campaign=Blog%20Subscription&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=63826922&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8Awu1WpxFLANA0zIx_A1KWDVLDPV9W5If7ItwQU7HmsPX4skhSAvkB1TpbR61BDHuRHVpqprLoQ7Y-sZ-EhehziQvbrg&_hsmi=63826922
Lots of links and free guidance.
While I'm here, and to avoid starting another thread, here's a website you might be able to use... Links to many retirement planning sources.
https://kadaza.com/retirement
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And...my bookmarks get longer. Imoldernu brings up an excellent point. I see your FIRE wisdom in enjoying your surroundings without the traps of extensive traveling or expensive cars. Making the best of living comfortably in simple surroundings makes FIRE less anxious. We also have 20 yr old cars and travel infrequently. I take pleasure in local volunteering which is "free fun" for me. The forest preserves, kids programs, the YMCA (a small cost), the senior classes very cheap through the university here. We rarely buy new clothes or eat out expensively (once in awhile). The equation income=expenses is a pretty safe one.
Special Day
Logging in here for our celebration.
Quiet one for us... Our 60th wedding anniversary. July 12 1958. We had a very nice 50th anniversary, with the entire family ten years ago.. Now... much happier to spend it alone with my bride... at home, just remembering the past 75 years since we met... in Grammar School at age 7. How about that. Good friends until our senior year in High School, when I asked her to the prom after breaking up with her next door neighbor.
Four years of college, she at Boston University, me at Bowdoin... She taking train to Maine, me hitchhiking to Boston, every chance we could get. Since then, four sons, and now, we are in our 30th year of retirement.
We could not be happier, or more in love. Pics of prom and marriage.
Logging in here for our celebration.
Quiet one for us... Our 60th wedding anniversary. July 12 1958. We had a very nice 50th anniversary, with the entire family ten years ago.. Now... much happier to spend it alone with my bride... at home, just remembering the past 75 years since we met... in Grammar School at age 7. How about that. Good friends until our senior year in High School, when I asked her to the prom after breaking up with her next door neighbor.
Four years of college, she at Boston University, me at Bowdoin... She taking train to Maine, me hitchhiking to Boston, every chance we could get. Since then, four sons, and now, we are in our 30th year of retirement.
We could not be happier, or more in love. Pics of prom and marriage.
Attachments
chicamuxen
Recycles dryer sheets
Congratulations. That is awesome! And i thought 35 years was long,lol.
chris2008
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Congratulations and may many happy anniversaries follow!
By the way: DH and I will celebrate our 35th tomorrow, while exploring the Baltic countries. The years were not too long ;-))
