Auto Battery Test

[CRLLS]

I did not ask what it came with. I asked what CCA it needed. It obviously needs less than 550.

You also use a tester but then decide on 60%. Would you still replace if you had a larger capacity battery to begin with? An 850 CCA battery at 60% would still have more power than is necessary.

I think it is to the point of arguing and I will stop. I am sorry that I am not making my question clear.

The design engineers determined it "NEEDED" 550CCA for a fresh battery and then calculating the typical loss of CCA over the useable life of the battery and the wear and tear on the starter/engine etc. This would also cover the expected temperature range that is normal for the car. Now, if you do not live in a cold climate and don't expect to see below 32 deg F, then ignore CCA and look at CA. CCA is rated at 0deg F while CA is rated at 32deg F. A rough difference or derating is that CCA is ~80% of CA give or take. The only way to know how many amps your car "needs" is to measure it under whatever conditions it will see in day to day service.

Your CCA question is now clear. The answer is not answerable.

Your question about replacing a higher rated battery at 60% of its life and still around what the factory battery was rated is another judgement call. I personally would not replace it based on the numbers alone, but expect that the battery is going to lose capability at a much faster "rate" than it did up to that point. If I was heading into Winter with those numbers and the battery was already 8 years old, then maybe I would. It is not a black and white decision.

 

[badatmath]

Well I can't answer really but a local parts store told me to replace the battery and for some reason I did not trust the gentleman. So I drove it to a battery store and he said we really do still add water to batteries these days. (I do live in AZ). After about another year it needed a jump and I replaced. Still that is the longest a battery has ever lasted me since I moved here perhaps 4-5 years instead of the 2 I normally get.

 

[Telly]

The design engineers determined it "NEEDED" 550CCA for a fresh battery and then calculating the typical loss of CCA over the useable life of the battery and the wear and tear on the starter/engine etc. This would also cover the expected temperature range that is normal for the car. Now, if you do not live in a cold climate and don't expect to see below 32 deg F, then ignore CCA and look at CA. CCA is rated at 0deg F while CA is rated at 32deg F. A rough difference or derating is that CCA is ~80% of CA give or take. The only way to know how many amps your car "needs" is to measure it under whatever conditions it will see in day to day service.

Your CCA question is now clear. The answer is not answerable.

Well put!

As far as determining how a battery is doing, for years I had two methods.

First was checking the voltage after it was well-charged, either by a longer driving run with major load items, like headlights and window grid defroster OFF. But before measuring, knock off the Surface-charge effect by turning on headlights for a few minutes. Then turn lights OFF, wait a couple minutes, and read the fully-charged battery voltage. Often (not always!) an aging battery's fully-charged voltage will droop lower and lower as time goes by.

Second, and I believe most reliable, doing a hygrometer check, after doing the routine I just listed. Note absolute, and cell-to-cell variation of Specific Gravity of each cell's electrolyte. My experience is that most batteries die due to one or two cells crapping out, and the remaining cells would be okay. But since all 6 cells in a 12 volt battery are in series, any one cell holds the battery's fate.

Many batteries used to be "Maintenance Free", but you could still pry off the two 3-cell caps and test each cell. But even those seem to be disappearing, leading to truly "Sealed" batteries, so a hygrometer is of no use.
So I bought earlier this year on Amazon, this battery tester. Used by one of the auto repair guys I watch on Youtube, and respect.

https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-B...22314&sprefix=schumacher+bt175,aps,126&sr=8-1

The price went up $5 - 6 since I bought mine. Can set it for various battery technologies, like Spiral AGM, flat-plate AGM, common flooded battery, Gel Cell. It will tell you if the battery is presently too discharged to run its proper test (charge it, then test), has different test method/outputs, CCA is what most of us would use.

As to how far under, percent-wise, I would go to decide to replace, I might go down to 80-85%, but I live in a warmer climate. It doesn't take much power to start an engine here, if there is no underlying engine/electrical problem. If I still lived in the midwest, very cold, slogging through snow and ice with headlights on and defrosters on, engine at low RPM (therefore lower charging capabilities), very cold mornings, etc. I'd replace it a lot sooner, I wouldn't be taking a chance!

Contrary to some experiences by others here, I have found that batteries in my environment last a lot longer than they did in the cold north!

Oh, I should mention... for batteries that I could pry off the vent caps, I WOULD add distilled water occasionally if cells were down. Add just to the bottom of the well sides, where the visual reflection of the electrolyte suddenly changes from flat, to concave (due to the surface tension created when the electrolyte level reaches and touches the bottom of the well tube). Maybe that's why my batteries last a lot longer?

 

[Koolau]

Heat kills, cold tests.

When I lived in Florida, I couldn't believe how cars ate batteries. At work, we all seemed to be giving each other rides to get batteries. 3 years was the magic number.

My battery died without giving a warning after 5 years. I think that's because we don't have cold. On the other hand, though it's warm (even hot in the sun) here, my car spends most of it's time in a parking structure with no sun load. So 5 years seems about right. Just would have appreciated one little warning.

 

[Telly]

Arrgh! Up in my post #28, change "hygrometer" to ""hydrometer"!

I had just checked our hygrometer (in instrument for measuring % humidity in air) in the house before I wrote the post! A Senior moment ocurred...

A "hydrometer" is an instrument (can be very simple) that measures the specific gravity of a liquid, often using 1.00 as the specific gravity of distilled water as the reference point to be compared against.

Just a quick pic grab of one as an example from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-B...=1670850001&sprefix=hydrometer,aps,361&sr=8-4

 

[freedomatlast]

The battery was not the original. The battery was having no problems. The auto shop just did a courtesy.

Very profitable for dealerships and service centers to replace good batteries. I saw this when I worked at the dealership. About 60 to 70% of the cars that came in for service out of warranty got the recommendation to replace the battery. Most people declined even after hearing the service advisor's scare tactics. Just another ripoff for the unsuspecting consumer.

 

[Andre1969]

Does anybody know how long, theoretically, a car battery could last? The one in my 2012 Ram is around 10.5 years old (6/2012 build date). I know it's on borrowed time, but it always seems to start right up with no trouble. Now, if it's been sitting awhile, sometimes it might take a few seconds to start, but the engine always turns over fast, until it catches, and the lights always shine nice and bright.

I'm not sure how old the battery is in my '03 Regal, but it's at least six years old. I inherited it when my Dad died. The date marking isn't visible, from looking at it in the engine bay. Now this morning, it took a few seconds to start. However, the car hasn't been run since Thursday morning. And, it still seemed pretty strong as the engine was turning over.

I know 4-5 years is a general rule of thumb, to be safe. I tried searching online, and one interesting anecdote I found was this...

"Sears DieHard in 1976 Dodge Aspen. Actually it didn’t fail but was replaced “on principle” after eleven years. Yes, the new Sears DieHard that replaced it did crank the engine faster. It lasted four days. On the evening of the second day, after driving the car regularly, I parked it at the airport, everything turned off, came back a day later, and…nothing. My wife came and gave me a jumpstart, and I charged the battery once I got home. I parked the car in the garage and turned the ignition off. The battery would not even light the dome light; the car had been running on the electric power from the alternator.

Next day, to Sears. 100% warranty credit. Eleven years…four days. Same brand!"

 

[njhowie]

I did not ask what it came with. I asked what CCA it needed. It obviously needs less than 550.

No, it needs what the manufacturer and the service manual tells you. You can choose to run it on less and maybe it will do ok, or maybe it won't, but saying that FIRE code of ethics tells you to try is just silly. FIRE code of ethics likely says to avoid being penny wise, pound foolish, and that's exactly what this is boiling down to.

Suppose you had left the old battery in the car and from all signs it's running fine. Then one day, as one of the other comments described, the car just dies in the fast lane of a highway ... and causes a big traffic accident. The response shouldn't be "Don't lecture me". It should be "Hmmm, maybe it is unsafe to use less than manufacturer spec in this case"?

It's clear that you're not getting the answer you're wanting here, and likely won't. Go find a Toyota auto/engine forum that has (anonymous) experts on the topic and maybe they can give you the answer you want to hear...or lecture you some more.

Apologies for the bluntness.

 

[ERD50]

...

It's clear that you're not getting the answer you're wanting here, and likely won't. Go find a Toyota auto/engine forum that has (anonymous) experts on the topic and maybe they can give you the answer you want to hear...or lecture you some more.

Apologies for the bluntness.

+1 Sometimes bluntness is required.

-ERD50

 

[JoeWras]

Arrgh! Up in my post #28, change "hygrometer" to ""hydrometer"!

Well, if you have a lot of corrosion going on in the engine compartment, a hygrometer might help locate the source of humidity.

 

[Qs Laptop]

If you know the minimum specs on this vehicle, that would be helpful.

At what ambient temperature? How old is the starter? How clean/tight are the battery connections? What's the integrity of the fuel, How are the coil igniters, the spark plugs, etc.

Let's suppose it is ideal conditions--70 degrees F, new starter, new cables, and connectors--I don't think there is a way to directly measure the minimum needed cranking amps to start the vehicle.

OP here. Y'all are lecturing me that I need to replace that battery. My second sentence said I already replaced it.

What CCA rating battery is your replacement? And what was the CCA rating of the old battery?

Back to batteries. I think the answer is that none of you replace batteries based on technical readings. You replace based on how long you have had it, how bad your weather has been and, finally, whether or not there are any issues. Correct?

I replace when there are issues. The first time it doesn't start the car I clean the terminals and get a jump start. Then I drive it to a mechanic and get a free battery health check. Then I decide what to do.

In February 2021 my three year old 2018 Ram 1500 would no longer start via the remote starter feature. Entering the vehicle and turning the key would start the truck. Since it was under warranty I took it do the dealer and got the battery replaced.

My wife's 2016 Dodge Charger started exhibiting the same symptoms. Had the battery checked. Learned it was about ready to die. Replaced it with a battery with the same sized case but with the highest CCA rating available. In Minnesota that is my strategy--always buy a replacement battery with more CCA than it's predecessor, if possible.

Both vehicles had the same OEM battery. One battery lasted 33 months; the other battery lasted 6 years. Same V6 engine in both vehicles, so I assume the same alternator, same charging circuitry.

 

[kgtest]

When DW battery was losing CCA as the battery aged, it would start MOST of the time in the summer, but when winter came, it struggled even more. So I replaced it in the winter. And then we bought a new car a year later lol. Oh well.

 

[JoeWras]

When DW battery was losing CCA as the battery aged, it would start MOST of the time in the summer, but when winter came, it struggled even more. So I replaced it in the winter. And then we bought a new car a year later lol. Oh well.

When I lived North, this would be my experience. You got a warning as it got cooler.

In the South, I might get one or two start warning of a slow crank. Then... toast.

 

[ERD50]

When I lived North, this would be my experience. You got a warning as it got cooler. ....

Today's cars generally start with such little cranking, I feel as if I don't really get a warning like that anymore. Seems I hit the button, and it's "whrrr- vroom", when in the 'old days' of carburetors, points, etc (manual choke anyone? ) in cold weather, it was more like ""whrrr- whrrr-whrrr-whrrr-whrrr------ whrrr--------- whrrr- ----------- whrrr-------- (c'mom, c'mon, START!) -----whrrr------ whrrr------- vroom (whew!)".

Seems that by the time the battery is weak enough to not get that initial turn-over, it's really weak, and you may not get a second chance.

I think I'll put the charger on the cars this week. We do mostly short drives and I often go days, sometimes a week or more w/o driving it, that the alternator might not be fully replacing the drain currents when sitting. Might not hurt to give them a full top-off now that it's getting colder. I think there was a thread on this last year (I may have started it?), about checking the 'resting voltage' of the lead-acid car battery. Around 12.6V or more is a pretty full charge. Voltage should jump to ~ 13.8V when running (that's the alternator kicking in).

-ERD50

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

The battery was having no problems. The auto shop just did a courtesy... ...Replacing a battery that is still doing its job is inconsistent with the FIRE code of ethics.

Not sure why anyone would replace a battery that "was having no problems." Sounds like the OP got pushed around by the auto shop, and I think it was likely the dealership.

Moral of the story is that the vast majority of those "courtesy checks" are ways for the service department to scare people and sell them things that they don't need.

 

[CRLLS]

When you said:



did that "60%" figure come from some source or just a gut feeling on your part?

It was my gut feeling. Some say replace at 50%. My battery tester actually gives a "good" or "bad" on the screen. I'm not sure where their trigger point is. I find that trying to get another 6-12 months out of an already old, weakened battery is not worth the trouble of waiting for a dead battery to show itself.

YMMV
BTD

 

[brett]

Our Toyota brand and our Honda brand batteries both last 10 years plus. We live in snow belt.

Two years ago the shop that did an oil change on the Honda claimed that my 3 year old Costco Kirkland brand battery required replacement. It is still in the car, working fine. Car started just fine in -15C weather last week.

I pull the battery out of the summer car during the fall and winter months when it is not in use. Some seem to claim that this is not such a great idea. Don't know.

I would not replace a battery unless it was showing signs of dying.

A number of years ago my spouse took her car in to have a headlight replaced. The shop did a courtesy check on her brakes, etc. They told her they needed to renew the brakes. She said no thanks. Why...she had them done eight months prior. She drove the car back to her regular shop. The mechanic laughed and explained the scam to her. The brakes were just fine.

 

[EarlyandLate]

Our Toyota brand and our Honda brand batteries both last 10 years plus.

I

I wonder who actually makes those batteries. IIRC, I read that there are only three different manufacturers of car batteries in the US. I once rented my house to a nice young man who was a salesman for Interstate Batteries. I went in to his shop one day to get something and he gave me the grand tour. He showed me the "blank" batteries and their assortment of decals for them. He then explained that, for instance, the Mercedes dealer down the street bought their batteries. He just slapped the Mercedes decals on them and delivered them to the dealer. He said that someone buying a "genuine" Mercedes battery at the dealer would get the exact same battery for less that half at his shop. It would just have Interstate brand decals on it.

 

[brett]

No different that any other house brand product.

 

[wolf]

Amazing. Simple topic. Can become almost toxic. Nice read though.

My experience. New cars. Much more "electronics", so even when turned off, the computer (s) are draining the battery.

I hate the "inconvenience" of an unexpected "no start". I'm usually going somewhere.
So, every 4 years, Costco battery. Fair price. Life is to short, to spend time worrying
about battery life. IMHO.

 

[Sunset]

When DW battery was losing CCA as the battery aged, it would start MOST of the time in the summer, but when winter came, it struggled even more. So I replaced it in the winter. And then we bought a new car a year later lol. Oh well.

Since we have 2 cars, when DW's battery got really bad, I put a new battery in my vehicle, and put my 3 yr old battery in her car.

Since her car is 25 yrs old, it will probably be the first one we replace so no sense sending off a new battery

 

[Sunset]

Our Toyota brand and our Honda brand batteries both last 10 years plus. We live in snow belt.

.....
I pull the battery out of the summer car during the fall and winter months when it is not in use. Some seem to claim that this is not such a great idea. Don't know.

....

I think it's a great idea, stops the vampire effect.

 

[Koolau]

No different that any other house brand product.

Friend used to sell tank cars of gasoline. Only difference between the majors was the gallon or so of "secret sauce" each company added to his "generic" gasoline. Probably the same with batteries - though clearly, there are different grades of batteries sold by the same battery producers (size, CCA, etc.)

I think a lot of battery life is 1) Environment 2) Usage 3) luck - - but I'm no expert and so YMMV.

 

[SVHoper]

Sorry I did not read all the replies... my first thought was did they really test at 0F ?
Otherwise it is not a measure of CCA and will inflate your percentage estimate due to temperature performance. e.g. testing at 32F ~multiply CCA x 1.25.

Lots of temperature vs battery performance charts (and battery life) available. OEM tend to put minimal/cheapest batteries. I replace with the biggest that can physically fit as I think it buys me a bit of headroom and life for a few extra $.