illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[youbet]

It's true, isn't it C-T, that the factory that makes your favorite brand of tipet is staffed by undocumented workers?  Oh no! The price might go up if we do something and provide basic services! Can't have that!

 

[BigMoneyJim]

Perhaps existing illegals can become "born again" Americans?

 

[youbet]

Is it more illegal to have arrived by sneaking across the border under cover of darkness or to have arrived via airplane, in a first class seat, with a tourist visa and just never returned home?

 

[bpp]

Messrs. C-T, SG, et al.,

1) "Maybe the law is the problem?"
--Maybe it is. That is why I suggested raising the quotas for legal workers/immigrants. I have yet to hear an explanation of why it is necessary to have illegal workers -- especially if, as SG says, they are being paid legal minimum wage anyway.

2) "Aren't you just prejudiced?"
--Look, I'm an immigrant myself, and like most you also come from a long line of immigrants. I'm not anti-immigrant. I also don't care if the US becomes a predominantly Spanish-speaking country. It's only a Romance language, shouldn't be too tough to learn. But that has nothing to do with whether someone is there legally or illegally.

3) "What about the War in Iraq and the War on Drugs?"
--I think both of those were bad ideas. But not relevant to the topic of this thread.

So I would like to hear a rousing justification for why it is necessary or desirable to have illegal immigration, rather than, for example, an expanded program of legal immigration. I consider it self-evident that institutionalizing widespread disrespect for the law is a bad idea. (And yes, I think too-low speed limits present the same problem.) If you don't agree, then say so, and we can debate that proposition instead. But don't change the subject to Iraq or racism.

Bpp

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .So I would like to hear a rousing justification for why it is necessary or desirable to have illegal immigration, rather than, for example, an expanded program of legal immigration.  I consider it self-evident that institutionalizing widespread disrespect for the law is a bad idea. . .

Maybe I haven't been clear in my posts, but I think I agree with you on this. Today, our immigration laws do not allow unskilled, laborers to immigrate legally. So they immigrate illegally. In order to create an expanded program of legal immigration, you have to change the laws.

Apparently, many of the undocumented workers are willing to give dangerous coyotes hundreds of dollars apiece and put their life at risk in order to cross the boarder for work. It seems to me that if we simply charged $49.99 and required them to file some documents to come across the boarder legally, we might come out way ahead.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

If illegal immigration means having boat loads of 18-24 year old Asian school girls being allowed into , Oh, let's say the Embarcadero area of SF.

Then I'm voting for the next politician that makes that practice legal.

Not a penny to the opposers.

 

[youbet]

  It seems to me that if we simply charged $49.99 and required them to file some documents to come across the boarder legally, we might come out way ahead.   

Exactly.  And it would also solve the issue for the many Asian, European and African folks who want to come but don't have the option of using coyotes.  For $49.99 and the cost of an airplane ticket, well.......  here they are!  People have been on lists to immigrate here for years and your idea would break those bottlenecks wide open.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

Okay, so we have at least a minor agreement on how to legalize immigrant labor. Next question is what to do about the existing "illegals". Spend $200B+ kicking them out, grant them all citizenship via amnesty? (Beisdes the 18-24 year old Asian girls, of course.)

Here's an idea: each legal immigrant has to find and return an illegal immigrant. Wal-Mart tried something similar with shopping carts, but apparently it didn't work as they're not doing it anymore.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

BigMoneyJim,
I'll pay for all the 18-23.6 year old illegal Asian females. My VISA is 4356-8978-3576-3453 and expires 05/06.,

Let's see that's 5.9 billion and will be less than I currently spend on chasing them. Bargain.

 

[samclem]

CT
I'm not really "worked up" about it, and to answer your implicit question--I'm not a racist. I was merely pointing out that the $230B tab being cited as the cost to forcibly round up and deport illegal aliens was a not a very useful factoid--since it's the most inefficient and costly way to get these folks to move back to their legal homes. It would also be the most intrusive on the civil liberties of all Americans.

I'm just wondering why so many people (and you know who you are) who profess to be concerned about the plight of the working poor in the US are so excited by the prospect of depressing wages by importing (illegally or legally) those who will work for less. A cynic would say that political liberals are so enthralled by the prospect of a flood of new "vote for more taxes on the rich" constituents that they don't mind selling out their present constituents on the economic bottom rung who are already in the US legally.

But I'm not a cynic, so I don't believe that.

If the law needs to be changed, then we should change it. We should not reward those who have broken the law, especially at the expense of those who have been waiting years to immigrate legally. Are they just suckers?

bpp--right on.

 

[mickeyd]

I've known illegal alliens all of my life and never gave it much thought. In Texas we affectionally call them wetbacks. It is not a derogatory term as many non-Texans assume, it is just what they are called by most, maybe all, long time Texans.

During the last 20 years or so this thing has gotten progerssively worse for some reason and I don't rightly know why.  The numbers of wetbacks seem to grow progressively larger and smugeling of drugs and who knows what else, has made it a more serious matter for those of us who think that the law should probably be observed by all parties.

My sister and her husband live in the state of Quintana-Roo in Mexico and they have many restrictions (financial  mostly) placed on them by the Federtalies and they work around it but ABIDE BY THE MEXICAN LAW.

Not sure why that can not be done when amigos invade the US for work or play.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

The numbers of wetbacks seem to grow progressively larger and smugeling of drugs and who knows what else, has made it a more serious matter for those of us who think that the law should probably be observed by all parties.

Okay, but what is to be done about the illegals already here? Kick them out, make them citizens or what?

And how do you make it less attractive for illegals to continue entering?

And will this have any effect whatsoever on drug trafficking?

This stuff must be carefully considered. Any major action may have a significant effect on the economy, the labor force and traffic patterns in Houston. If we're going to change something, and especially if we have to spend tons of money to do it, for my vote I'd like to understand how the actions and money will actually improve the situation.

Hmm, maybe the newly unemployed hospital, street and school workers can fill in the manual labor gaps...

 

[youbet]

Okay, but what is to be done about the illegals already here? Kick them out, make them citizens or what?

Maybe the proponents of doing nothing are right.  Leave the illegals here.  Give them the rights they are entitled to legally, nothing more, nothing less.  Make a small, inexpensive effort to enforce current law by visiting employers as happened recently in Illinois.  No major expenditures.  No change.

 

[Cut-Throat]

I'm just wondering why so many people (and you know who you are) who profess to be concerned about the plight of the working poor in the US are so excited by the prospect of depressing wages by importing (illegally or legally) those who will work for less. A cynic would say that political liberals are so enthralled by the prospect of a flood of new "vote for more taxes on the rich" constituents that they don't mind selling out their present constituents on the economic bottom rung who are already in the US legally.

Actually, the liberals are not 'excited or enthralled' at all. That was my point! - The neocons are the ones who think this is a critical issue that needs fixing. Polls have been taken that put this issue at the top of the of the countries concerns.

All I was asking is why they were so concerned about it, mostly because it seems like small potatos to me. It's not a huge debt to the U.S. economy, so it must be something akin to the anti gay marriage amendments. Just trying to understand how the neocon mind works or doesn't work.

The liberals are focused on the war in Iraq, health care and the ineptitude of Bush Jr. to run the country.

 

[kathyet]

Posted by: BigMoneyJim  Posted on: May 05, 2006, 07:15:35 PM 
Insert Quote 
Okay, so we have at least a minor agreement on how to legalize immigrant labor. Next question is what to do about the existing "illegals". Spend $200B+ kicking them out, grant them all citizenship via amnesty? (Beisdes the 18-24 year old Asian girls, of course.)

Here's an idea: each legal immigrant has to find and return an illegal immigrant. Wal-Mart tried something similar with shopping carts, but apparently it didn't work as they're not doing it anymore. 


Just put a buzzer on them that won't stop buzzing till they cross the border!.

Kathyet

PS This was sent to me a few days :

Subject: FW: Hispanic Leaders Speak Out

HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston!  Go back to
Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims!  Get out!  We are the future. You are old and tired.
Go on.  We have beaten you.  Leave like beaten rats. You old white
People.  It is your duty to die . . . Through love of having children, we
Are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're
Going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions.
They're right.  We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, "The American Southwest
Seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without
Firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas; "We have an aging
White America.  They are not making babies.  They are dying.  The
Explosion is in our population . . . I love it.  They are shitting in their
Pants with fear.  I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember
187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was
The last gasp of white America in California."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing
Every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this
Country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm
Going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and
California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor
Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President
Bill Clinton, "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who
Doesn't like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , "We are practicing 'La
Reconquista' in California."

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University; "We need to
Avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . "

Are these just the words of a few extremists?  Consider that we could
Fill up many pages with such quotes.  Also, consider that these are
Mainstream Mexican leaders.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO:

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. And Mexican soccer teams met at the Los
Angeles Coliseum.  The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though
Most lived in this country.  They booed during the National Anthem and
U.S. Flags were held upside down.  As the match progressed, supporters
Of the U.S. Team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and
Spat upon.  Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. Players before and
After the match.  The coach of the U.S. Team, Steve Sampson said, "This
Was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European
Countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education,
And government contracts?  It's called affirmative action or racial
Privilege.  The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate
Here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for
Americans of European descent.  Recently, a vote was taken in the U.S.
Congress to end this practice.  It was defeated.  Every single Democratic
Senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special privileges for
Hispanic, Asian and African immigrants.  They were joined by thirteen
Republicans.  Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly stated that they
Believe that massive immigration from countries like Mexico is good.
They have also backed special privileges for these immigrants.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third
World immigrants should get special, privileged status.  Some examples
Are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and
Many more.

DID YOU KNOW?

Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the
Defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals?  Did you know that
Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the
U.S. In spite of agreements to do so?  According to the L.A. Times,
Orange County, California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of
Which are Mexican and Asian.  How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years
After the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia, 30% are
Still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide.  A Wall Street
Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement
Officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge
The country faces."  Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the
Population.

Is education important to you?  Here are the words of a teacher who
spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers
in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying
attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English.
Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of
students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and
multicultural references."

WHEN I WAS YOUNG:

When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that came
through  Ellis Island.  They wanted to learn English. They wanted to
breath free.  They wanted to become Americans.  Now too many immigrants
come here with demands.  They demand to be taught in their own language.
They demand special privileges--affirmative action.  They demand ethnic
studies that glorify their culture.

HOW CAN YOU HELP?

Send copies of this letter to at least two other people, 100 would be
even better.  Help us get the word out.

California Coalition for Immigration Reform
5942 Edinger, Suite 113-117
Huntington Beach, CA 92649
Phone 714 921 7142
Date: 4/5/2006

 

[Maximillion]

The Iraqui Invasion has cost $500,000,000,000 of BORROWED MONEY, paying this debt off will be nigh impossible.

The US could have spent that money on putting factories in Mexico, that would help stop the flow.

 

[Nords]

They seem to be saying, "it may cost us more to get rid of illegal immigrants than is costs to ignore them, but we should do it anyway."  

Gosh I miss activities-based cost analysis...

It seems to me that if we simply charged $49.99 and required them to file some documents to come across the boarder legally, we might come out way ahead.

Yeah, make it legal and then tax it to death!

Seems to be the universal antidote.

While we're arguing about the money that's been wasted in Iraq, let's not forget that we've killed a lot of Americans (let alone disabled many more for life) yet it's still fewer than died in the World Trade Center attacks. However wasteful all of that seems, however, I should point out that the current course of action is more cost effective in terms of both life and $$ than the 12+ years we spent executing Operation SOUTHERN WATCH between the two wars. The USAF & USN aviators are pretty happy to let someone else have a turn in the barrel, as are all the sailors & Marines who were spending 30-50% of every year cruising around the Gulf.

It would have been nice if we could have avoided spending all that money altogether, but in this case it seems to be better to do something about the neighborhood bully than to just keep reporting his activities to the local Neighborhood Watch.

For those who think that $500B can never be repaid, consider what the tax receipts on a couple years' economic activity in the late '90s did to the national debt. It was unsustainable, but a few years of GDP usually wipes out a few years of defense spending. In fact, defense spending is the lowest percentage of GDP since the years between WWI & WWII. True, most of that reduction has been caused by the dramatic rise in GDP and not a drop in defense expenses, but the military has been doing its share to reduce their percentage of the total. Maybe we should focus on Social Security & Medicare instead of a few piddling billions in Iraq... or crossing the borders.

 

[youbet]

The liberals are focused on the war in Iraq, health care and the ineptitude of Bush Jr. to run the country.

Liberals might be. But not many liberals left these days. Now we have ultralib elitists. Ultralib elitists are focused on losing another election despite the poor performance of the incumbent administration. Just as in 2004, when Alfred E Newman could have defeated Bush by a landslide, the ultralib elitists want to focus on themselves instead of winning over constituents and somehow find a way to lose at a time when we really need a change.

Ultralib elitists aren't like liberals of the past. They live in fancy townhouses, have their Mexican housekeeper and gardener and discuss the ineptitude of the current administration over fine wines after returning from yet another expensive vacation. They're frequently very smart but also insecure. They have to tell everyone else about their big brain again and again. They can't understand how the competition thinks because they're too fond of themselves and self-centered to step into the other guy's shoes for a moment. It's just beyond them that someone might not automatically think exactly like them since they are so wonderful, so perfect. It's always about them. Sure not like Dems of the past.

Ultralib elitists are focused on themselves. Their causes are only hobbies. They have no clue what it means to be pro-labor or side with the underdog.

Ultralib elitists can't fathom why someone else might think differently than themselves and how to deal with it. People not in the clique aren't won over, they're scorned and turned away as not being worthy of joining.

Ultralib elitists get confused when they hear an opinion not exactly their own. They immediately assert their superiority and put down the hapless victim ensuring an enemy and lost vote forever.

Ultralib elitists blame the loss of elections on the people who didn't vote for them and openly scorn and ridicule those people instead of listening to them and figuring out how to win them over.

Ultralib elitists say they set high personal standards yet somehow always manage to play to the level of the competition.

Ultralib elitists need to get tuned into the people and walk the high road. Ultralib elitists need to get out and grovel in the dirt with the rest of the population a little and remember that old fashioned Dems, despite their blue collars and lunch pails, get a vote just like they do and perhaps should be won back, not scorned and belittled.

So-called neocons on the right. Ultralib elitists on the left. It's getting darn lonely here in the middle.

And that's all I have to say about that......

 

[mickeyd]

So-called neocons on the right.  Ultralib eliteists on the left.  It's getting darn lonely here in the middle.

LOL...maybe "in the middle" is how they are all sneaking into the USA. Neither right nor left can see the forest for the trees. (Not a very good analogy in a desert environment, but forest/trees was all that I could come up with on such short notice.)

 

[Cut-Throat]

Ultralib elitists blame the loss of elections on the people who didn't vote for them and openly scorn and ridicule those people instead of listening to them and figuring out how to win them over.

Al Gore won the 2004 election. 8)

Liberals might be. But not many liberals left these days.

No doubt! - Lots of idiots in this country today! 8)

 

[youbet]

No doubt! - Lots of idiots in this country today! 8)

I guess you would know!

 

[dusk_to_dawn]

Al Gore won the 2004 election. 8)

What office did Al Gore run for in 2004?

 

[dusk_to_dawn]

The Iraqui Invasion has cost $500,000,000,000 of BORROWED MONEY, paying this debt off will be nigh impossible.

That figure looks to be 278 Billion as of today, not that facts should get in the way when arguing who is right or wrong.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

 

[samclem]

2004, 2000, whatever. I think that after awhile the defeats, the candidate's' faces, what the elections were about all start to blend together.

 

[Maximillion]

dtd, still a whole lot of money that could have been used at home for the people who pay the bills.

Iraq was never one country, and when the Foreign troops leave, Civil War will break out,a nd it will revert to its 3 socio economic units based upon religious differances.

Sometimes the Devil you know is beter than the Devil you don't know.