Protein will kill you ...

[Cool Dood]

This is my diet

We only have to eat at all because of pollution

 

[wabmester]

The relationship between diet and health is obviously a complicated one.   Campbell's ideas are fairly simple, and they could certainly be wrong, but I think it's an important enough issue that it's worth a read.

Here's the bottom-line: in the US (and other affluent societies), we live a long time, but our quality of life in later years isn't so good, on average.    Isn't ER about improving our quality of life?

It's clear that dietary habits differ in different regions of the world.    It's also clear that genetic makeup differs both across regions and within different regions.

So, Campbell looked at regions in China with relatively high genetic homogeneity to reduce the genetic unknown.    He attributes the differences in disease incidence purely to dietary differences.

Some of the surprising results include the fact that the Chinese he studied consumed *more* calories than Americans, but had almost no obesity and low incidence of heart disease, autoimmune diseases, cancer, Altzheimer's, etc.   He asserts that this was true even after adjusting for exercise.

He also asserts that the traditional scientific reductionist approach is a failure when it comes to nutritional studies.    For example, the famous Nurse's Health Study tried to vary dietary variables one at a time, and found that there were very few health benefits to fruit, veggies, fiber, etc.     But Campbell asserts that the baseline diet of the nurses studies was the typical American diet, so the relatively small variations studied were meaningless.

I couldn't possibily tell you who's right about this stuff.    Opinions are all over the map.   But it makes interesting reading. 

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

It does make me feel slightly nostalgic for a period of time when everything you did wasn't on somebodys hit list for health reasons

Sounds like your dad and my grandfather had the same diet. Another big guy that did everything that was "bad" for you. Lived into his late 80's. My dad did say that because meat was expensive there wasnt always a lot of it.

This comment of yours is one i've taken to heart. I've discovered that almost every "miracle" food or diet gets debunked at some point. Everything thats supposed to be bad for you at some point is found to not be so bad. There are a few things I'll set aside from that, like smoking and eating raw bacon by the pound, for obvious reasons.

Now I just eat a reasonable and balanced diet and mix it with chasing a 15 month old around moderate exercise. I'm not measuring out blueberries, drinking pomegranite juice, chewing on tofu or eating sawdust.

Life is too short and arriving safe and sound to your death bed a year or two later because you cut some of the enjoyment out of it just doesnt sound like a plan.

 

[azanon]

Life is too short and arriving safe and sound to your death bed a year or two later because you cut some of the enjoyment out of it just doesnt sound like a plan.

I dont see the main point of a great diet and exercise as getting an extra 2-4 years of life.  For me, its more about the quality of life while you're alive.   What gives one more pleasure bang for their buck;  bliss eating something unhealthy within a 10 minute span and then feeling/looking like crap afterwards, or feeling/looking great for 24 hours a day (minus 30 minutes for eating healthy food)?   

 

[Chris24]

I belong to PETA .... (People Eating Tasty Animals) :. I like veggies also. I also like breathing the air, but these days seems to have more toxins in it than ever before.

Unless you want to become a recluse, freak, or isolate yourself from the rest of society, doesn't it all come down to moderation of all things. Isn't genetics a big key to longevity?

 

[SteveR]

Eat right.

Don't Smoke.

Don't drink alcohol.

Exercise 4X per week.



Die anyway.
You may make a more attractive corpse but you're still dead in the end.

 

[astromeria]

Since menopause I've lost much of my appetite for red meat. I don't seem to crave a burger or steak often, and when I do eat them, I don't want more than a few ounces. I have gotten a little hungrier for poultry (which I used to dislike except with crispy skin ;-) and absolutely craving shellfish. I practically live on shrimp, garlic, & cabbage these days.

My favorite eat-out meal is at a Vietnamese restaurant in North Charleston--rice noodles with grilled pork and shrimp, bean sprouts, hot peppers, cilantro, and a bit of light sweet & sour sauce...d@mn, I'm hungry! (I skipped lunch, having had a shrimp & scallion omelet for breakfast  )

 

[greenhm]

Now I just eat a reasonable and balanced diet and mix it with chasing a 15 month old around moderate exercise. I'm not measuring out blueberries, drinking pomegranite juice, chewing on tofu or eating sawdust.

Huh... thats funny... I do eat lots of blueberries, drink pomegranite juice AND chew on tofu, but do NOT feel I am depriving myself of anything.

I do not eat the flesh of any animal for the simple reason of health.

The health of the animal
The health of myself
The health of the environment

If you look into it, you too may also find it advantagous

Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.
I feel that vegetarians do NOT live 8 years longer, but, that meat eaters live 8 years less than non meat eaters.

Are these studies based on meat diet alone? Could people who choose not to eat meat also take care of themselves in other ways also?

Many, many variables... but one things for sure.... the cow sure appeciates it when you don't eat it!

 

[astromeria]

There wouldn't be very many (any?) cows if we didn't eat them--not in the US, anyway. Just sayin'.

 

[Chris24]

Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.
.

Your messing with my early retirement plan.

 

[greenhm]

Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.

Your messing with my early retirement plan.

Now That's funny!

There wouldn't be very many (any?) cows if we didn't eat them--not in the US, anyway. Just sayin'.

I know what you mean... here in Alberta (cow country), we'd be left to live off our oil reserves, for gods sake.... if it wern't fer cows!

 

[veritasophia]

Here are a couple of pages that take a closer look at Campbell's book as well as the common inferences drawn from the China study:

http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html. This site comes from another bias, that the ideal diet is our ancestral one (before the advent of factory/processed foods). It is a relatively unexplored perspective that is based on the work of a dentist named Weston Price. In the 1950s this guy traveled the world to observe the health of "primitive" people who lived apart from modern civilizations. He found all of these people to be extremely healthy by our standards: no heart disease, cancer or other degenerative/chronic problems, very few had cavities. Surprisingly their diet emphasized animal fats and other mineral/vitamin rich animal foods. You can find the compilation of his work in his book "Nutrition and physical degeneration", http://www.westonaprice.org also has a lot of relevant information.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-8e.shtml is a statistical review of some of the salient points of the original China study and how they relate to a vegan diet.

 

[haha]

Here are a couple of pages that take a closer look at Campbell's book as well as the common inferences drawn from the China study:
http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html.  This site comes from another bias, that the ideal diet is our ancestral one (before the advent of factory/processed foods). 
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-8e.shtml is a statistical review of some of the salient points of the original China study and how they relate to a vegan diet.

So far I have only read the first article, a review of Campbell's book. Thank you for the interesting links. If the table from the bottom of the page is accurately copied from the China study, case closed- there is little or no reason to pursue this matter of animal protein causing cancer any further.

FIGURE 1: Associations of Selected Variables with Mortality for All Cancers
Total Protein +12%   Carbohydrates +23%
Animal Protein + 3%   Total Calories  +16%
Fish Protein + 7%   Fat % Calories - 17%
Plant Protein +12%   Fiber +21%
Total Lipids - 6%   Fat (questionnaire) - 29%*



* statistically significant ** highly significant *** very highly significant

I paln to read the other article later.

Ha

 

[haha]

An aside on China and diet- The Mongol Genghis Khan who conquered the world, and according to DNA studies may be a direct progenitor of 25% of the people now living in Eurasia, ate what all Mongols ate and continue to eat today-- a diet almost entirely composed of meat and camel's milk.

Worked for him!

Ha

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Made him a mean mofo that wanted to kill people and hump a lot? Hmmm...

 

[wabmester]

If the table from the bottom of the page is accurately copied from the China study, case closed

I liked that review and actually agree with its premise that Campbell's book reads like a biased case for veganism. But, you need to consider that the review came from a site dedicated to spreading the gospel about the benefits of animal fat and raw milk. And the "selected" stats in that table contained only one that was noted to be statistically significant. No idea what the source or context is.

 

[haha]

I liked that review and actually agree with its premise that Campbell's book reads like a biased case for veganism.    But, you need to consider that the review came from a site dedicated to spreading the gospel about the benefits of animal fat and raw milk.    And the "selected" stats in that table contained only one that was noted to be statistically significant.    No idea what the source or context is.

Wab, I agree with your comments about Weston Price Institute. They claimed that the table came from the original paper published about the China study.

I haven't seen that study, so I can't comment.

Ha

 

[wabmester]

I haven't seen that study, so I can't comment.

Me either, but I'm just noting that the author of that review called the stats in that table "selected" and noted that all but one wasn't statistically significant (i.e., whatever context he pulled them from, they were published as due to chance and unreliable as statistics).

 

[audreyh1]

Some of the surprising results include the fact that the Chinese he studied consumed *more* calories than Americans, but had almost no obesity and low incidence of heart disease, autoimmune diseases, cancer, Altzheimer's, etc.   He asserts that this was true even after adjusting for exercise.

Seems like HOW you adjust for the exercise factor would be very subjective here. It may be that physical has a much LARGER effect on total health than he assumes.....

Audrey

 

[grumpy]

Two weeks ago I went back on the Atkins (low carb) diet. I had been on it for three years and had lost 17 pounds and kept almost all of it off. My cholesterol and blood pressure were fine. About a year ago my wife went on Weight Watchers and I got bored with the low carb diet. I began eating low fat, whole grains, lean meats and fish, etc. Even though I was exercising 6 days a week (walking 4 miles X 3, swimming 1.5 miles x 3) I regained all the weight I had lost. My cholesterol spiked up to 242 and my bp went up to 145/75. That kind of diet just doesn't work for me. My doctor put me on a fairly high dose of Lipitor but it has caused some serious side effects so I have stopped taking it. I will try the low carb diet again for a few months and get my lab work redone. I think that everyone is different and you just have to find what works for you.

Grumpy

 

[wabmester]

Seems like HOW you adjust for the exercise factor would be very subjective here.  It may be that physical has a much LARGER effect on total health than he assumes.....

He gives a review of his methodolgy in one of the appendices, but he doesn't touch on whether exercise was measured or how they adjusted for differences.   As far as I can tell, he simply asserts that rural Chinese are able to eat more calories without gaining weight because a plant-based diet increases thermogenesis (i.e., the body burns more calories by generating more heat).

FWIW, in general his methodology looked solid to me, but if somebody really wanted to poke holes in the study, they'd probably have to pour over the 1000-page manuscript that they generated.

 

[audreyh1]

Personally I believe that a predominantly plant-based, low-protein, high-carb diet combined with a sedentary lifestyle is a recipe for disaster.  What you see in developed countries is a big rise in metabolic syndrome when the refined carb intake is high and exercise is low.  Type 2 diabetes results.  And we are seeing a diabetes epidemic in children as well as adults in this country.  What changed for the kids?  Increased in sugar intake (plant-based) as opposed to foods like milk and a change to an incredibly sedentary lifestyle.

There is no connection between diabetes and protein or even fat intake.  But there is a connection between carb intake and diabetes, and between sedentary lifestyle and metabolic syndrome/diabetes.   Most carbs come from plants - even refined carbs like the sugar in sodas, etc., come from grains!

If the lifestyle is physically active, then it appears the body can process a high-carb diet just fine - even if the carbs are fairly refined (e.g. white rice).  And from the China studies it appears even overeating calories doesn't cause problems under these circumstances either.

So I can't help but conclude it's the sedentary lifestyle that is the major culprit.

Things are pretty darn complicated at the cellular level!

Audrey

 

[laurence]

Eh, what was in Benjamin Franklin said, "Everything in moderation." ...or was it variety is the spice of life?

Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc. Still working out if we'll eliminate chicken and fish, we are finding a space along the continuum that we are comfortable with. We're going to join the experiment. I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.

 

[REWahoo]

Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc.... I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.

Hmmmmm. Maybe you should eat some of the bark off the uphill side of that pine tree. That would probably cleanse you plus encourage the tree to grow in a more favorable direction.

 

[Eagle43]

Eh, what was in Benjamin Franklin said, "Everything in moderation." ...or was it variety is the spice of life?

Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc. Still working out if we'll eliminate chicken and fish, we are finding a space along the continuum that we are comfortable with. We're going to join the experiment.  I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.

I'm all for this with the exception of the alcohol part. Rather give everything else up, but the wine is mandatory.