Financial Goals & Spouse

[candrew]

No advice from me. Just an observation from a dude who's been married to the same woman for almost 43 years.

The first 20 or so years are the toughest.

On a more serious note, I'm grateful that DW and I were willing to put in the hard work to make our marriage a successful one and find happiness in being with each other.

I wish that you and yours find happiness with each other as well.

 

[Jerry1]

It’s kind of been said, but I’ll say it again. Saving for retirement is great. Being financially responsible is great. But, don’t forget that there is today. God forbid, something happens and you don’t make it to retirement. Find balance in your plan. Today is just as important as tomorrow. You’re too young to be so focused on tomorrow (retirement).

Not to mention that one of the most significant financial impacts that have kept people from retiring early is a divorce. Balance. It does a person and a marriage good.

 

[Chris918]

Thanks again to everyone continuing to give advice. I really appreciate all the feedback. To Jerry's point I definitely take retirement too seriously. You just never know what the future holds.

To whomever asked how much we are currently saving, I believe this month's budget shows 26-27% not including the amount being invested via work retirement plans.

 

[MissMolly]

Thanks again to everyone continuing to give advice. I really appreciate all the feedback. To Jerry's point I definitely take retirement too seriously. You just never know what the future holds.

To whomever asked how much we are currently saving, I believe this month's budget shows 26-27% not including the amount being invested via work retirement plans.

Oh my gosh! You are doing GREAT! You might want to consider what someone else suggested about including hair/nails in the regular expenses. For most women (not me, but most) this is a requirement, not splurge money. Especially for someone still in their 20's. Then she would probably do much, much better with the $100 fun money budget.

 

[Moemg]

I recognize that I have faults in this situation. And it's true that I was very worried in the beginning based on the over drafting.

Thanks again for your advice.

The over draft was several years ago when she was 24 . Let it go ! My SO's son did the same thing He treated his wife as a child and controlled her . That marriage lasted five years .

 

[bolt]

Hello all,

First of all let me preface this by saying I'm not entirely sure where this topic should go. If it would be better suited elsewhere please let me know or if this isn't even the place for this kind of question. That being said I'll begin.

My wife and I have been married for 1 year and together for 8. We bought our house 2 and a half years ago. I was always the more financially stable of the two of us. When we had an apartment, my now wife overdrafted several times due to clothes shopping, eating out, etc. She didn't keep track of her money. She didn't record anything. I understood how dangerous this was to our household and so I intervened. I explained how saving, investing, and living below our means would provide the best quality life for us. She agreed to let me manage all of our finances and since then money has never been a problem.

Fast forward to today. While she doesn't say it, I know my wife resents me to an extent since I have control of our finances and she does not. I personally spend very little and allocate fun/spending money to each of us after we have paid our bills, saved, and invested. It is not common for her to go through her portion in just the first few days of the month.

Now I certainly don't want my wife resenting me. Of course she makes money and provides for the household as well. I just invest and save on her behalf so that she doesn't spend it all. That being said, is that my responsibility? Would it be better if I just let her have whatever money she would have if I weren't managing her finances? I know that would make her happier, but I know that she is unlikely to invest or save much of it and that can impact me negatively since we're married.

Does anyone have any advice? Man this sounds like a relationship help question, but while I want her to be able to have fun and spend I think financial stability and planning for retirement have to come first. What should I do?

It's clear you recognized this monetary propensity of hers earlier in the relationship but overlooked it's significance.

Like any male gorilla in the wild the one with the most accommodations, food, warmth, shelter has the most females around. Their around for the comfort he provides them = that translates to assets in human terms.

Your call.
GOOD LUCK!

 

[FIREflower]

So, I hear what you're saying about how you know you're being controlling and it's not good....you don't feel good about it, your wife doesn't feel good about it, but that's the current dynamic that's formulated because you felt the urgent need to take charge because your wife wouldn't be responsible.

I'm basically you in DH's and my relationship. Not just with finances, with a lot of things. And I've learned to catch myself in it early on, stop the behavior, communicate my inclinations and that I know it's my problem, and then make a conscious effort to let it go. Sometimes I might ask him if he has a plan regarding The Thing, and he'll indulge me with details so I can feel reassured that I don't need to jump in and save the day, he's perfectly capable himself. But it's his ideas and his plans that he's putting together to approach whatever the thing is his way, which is often quite different from my way. After several rounds of this early on I noticed he has a completely different style to approaching things, that helped me relax more and just appreciate our differences. It still means he'll make mistakes at the thing, as would I, but that's how you learn anything in life.

The thing is, and it sounds like you're similar--I don't actually want to be in control. But if I feel DH is not likely to 100% prioritize something I find crucial, I naturally step in and take over, without even really thinking that much. Without even minding at first. I subconsciously feel it's what I must do to keep myself safe. And he lets me not because he's a pushover (he isn't) but because he want me to be happy and in the moment he assumes that letting me go all control freak is achieving that.

I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in this. For me it really came down to learning to appreciate our differences and give DH space to navigate life his way, which I discovered is always ultimately more fun and relaxed for both of us than him trying to jump unfamiliar hoops with my approaches. For example now we have fun money in our budget, and DH spends his pretty quick and often shares about what he's excited to be spending it on. I love watching how his eyes light up and he gets so excited about being able to pursue hobbies and such. I'm happy he's discovering joyful things. Whereas I....I don't know what to even DO with fun money. I feel paralyzed. All I can think of is "wouldn't this be better put towards savings?"

Thus, DH has taken to mercilessly poking fun at me for my ever accumulating fun money in lighthearted moments. Other times I'll wistfully comment about something non-essential that costs money and he'll catch me off guard by gently mentioning that I have fun money in the budget. And then it's on me to wonder what kind of person have I turned into that even a $5 item that would make me feel happy is a struggle?

I share this to give you hope. When you are able to come from a place of mutual respect, your differences can help round each other out to a mutually rewarding dynamic.

I agree with others that I think couples therapy would be a really good step for you guys. I know you can get the a good place with this if you both want it badly enough, and therapy is a way of facilitating that with the least misunderstandings possible.

 

[Maenad]

Another vote for couples financial counseling. It can help you both uncover your unconscious assumptions, fears about money, communication gaps, all kinds of things.

One thing that I haven't seen discussed is how much money you make (separately and together). You don't have to answer this here, but think about it yourselves. Are you in a situation where you're early on in your careers and still building, but you'll be more comfortable some day? Are you in lower-paying fields and your wife struggles with champagne tastes and a beer budget? Do you make in the top 5% but live much more median? Each of those situations can require a different viewpoint from you both and a different path forward to achieve balance and happiness.

And the desire for more spending money may be enough reason for your wife to move to a higher-paying career. 27 is a good age to make a switch if needed or desired.

Also, keeping up appearances with styled/colored hair, polished nails, and new clothing can be an unspoken requirement in some careers for women, and failing to keep up in this area could affect your wife's long-term earning potential.

 

[donheff]

You definitely need to loosen the reins. If she is resentful now, wait a few years. You said you are going to talk -- do that soon. And somebody early on mentioned compromise - do. You should be able to work out a plan that sets aside mandatory investment income first, differential essential budgets that address your different needs (hers can and should include more for clothes, hair, etc. than yours - come on get real here), joint travel, entertainment, and emergency funds. Finally, hand over half the rest.

If you are way more committed to ER than she is you might consider establishing separate paths to RE. She spends more and saves less now, you FIRE earlier while she continues to work. The critical thing is to sort out what each of you wants in life.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Thanks again to everyone continuing to give advice. I really appreciate all the feedback. To Jerry's point I definitely take retirement too seriously. You just never know what the future holds.

To whomever asked how much we are currently saving, I believe this month's budget shows 26-27% not including the amount being invested via work retirement plans.

I asked the question and I asked because I was trying to figure out how extreme you might be with your saving goals. Saving 26-27% in additional $$$ over and above retirement money is admirable, but the total savings % including both of your 401K contributions(not including your employer's contributions), would give us a better picture of how much you are really saving. Could you calculate that % for us?


One other question: What percentage of your gross joint income is earned by you and what percentage is earned by your wife?


As others have noted, and you have admitted, the power dynamic is off. Acknowledging that and if your saving is upwards of 50% of your gross income, has your wife agreed to this sort of extreme LBYM approach to your finances? You indicate that in principle she agrees to whatever you have proposed, but does she really?

 

[pb4uski]

.... Does anyone have any advice? Man this sounds like a relationship help question, but while I want her to be able to have fun and spend I think financial stability and planning for retirement have to come first. What should I do?

Your DW sounds like me in my 20s.... if money made its way to my bank account then it seemed like it was automatically spent... so I structured my finances so less money made it to my bank account... the "pay yourself first" in savings lingo.

What might work for your DW is to have savings deducted from her earnings as well as perhaps a contribution to household expenses and then any remainder she can spend as she pleases.

You might also agree on a goal when you want to retire and how much income you want in retirement and then back into how much you need to save to get there and that may make the need for saving more real to her.... or do a plan in Quicken Lifetime Planner to get a sense of how much you need to save to achieve your financial goals.... then put your savings on autopilot and monitor your progress with Quicken.

 

[RunningBum]

You need to find some common ground between overdrawing a checking account and putting 1/4 or more towards retirement. That's a vast area between those two extremes.

 

[Chris918]

As a means to try and answer the many questions I received, here are some additional details.

I make around $20k more a year than my wife does.
My wife hasn't shown me what percentage of her income goes to her state retirement plan, but I assume it's likely 2-4 percent. As for my retirement plan at work I am currently only doing the minimum to get the match which is 2%. As I mentioned I plan on increasing this by 3% each year since this is my annual raise. That would put us anywhere between 29-32% of our income saved.

We did decide to discuss our finances. I explained to her that I didn't like having this much control and that I felt for our relationship to be more positive going forward that I would like to discuss a new arrangement. She was open to it but uncomfortable. She explained that she has been taken care of her entire life and that someone has always been around to help get her out of any issues. She says because of this she feels she hasn't had to take on much responsibility and has always found it easier to have someone else do it. While I acknowledged my faults and that I had gone much too far, she acknowledged that she appreciated my passion and effort, but that she also needs to be more involved if our goal of early retirement is to be achieved.

In the end, we decided that after all bills are paid, she will get access to whatever money is remaining from her income. However, we also decided that half of that should go to a ROTH IRA. The amount she has remaining is still much larger than she had before and she agreed the amount was more than sufficient. I recommended that she think about setting some of it aside each month in case something comes up that she needs to pay for and that if she had any extra that investing more was never a bad idea. I did state that the decision is entirely up to her however.

Besides that, I made it clear that I don't want any control over what she does with this additional money. I said it's her money and she can use it on whatever she wants. I explained that I will go over both of our retirement accounts several times a year so she can see where she's at. We agreed that we need to stick to our new budget and that this extra spending money is more than enough for her each month.

 

[JustCurious]

The issue is not about you controlling the money or there being a power imbalance...there are many marriages that are perfectly happy where one person is in control of the money... there can be a happy yin and yang dynamic between a person who likes to be in control and another person who does not want to be in control and likes it when the other takes control, many marriages happily fall within this dynamic. The issue is whether the two of you are compatible in terms of how you relate to money...I don't think there are very many happy marriages where two people are far apart in terms of how they handle money and there is no yin and yang in that situation, just conflict. It has often been said that money is one of the biggest compatibility issues that leads to divorce, that is because some people are spendthrifts and some people are frugal, and some people are savers and some are not, and most people fall somewhere between the two extremes but if two people are far apart in terms of how they handle money then all the communication in the world will not fix the underlying issue.

 

[Rianne]

Compromise, share all decisions so she can have input and help her understand your decisions. She might be an investing savant.

 

[RunningBum]

Seems like it was a constructive discussion last night. I hope it works out.

 

[ivinsfan]

As a means to try and answer the many questions I received, here are some additional details.

I make around $20k more a year than my wife does.
My wife hasn't shown me what percentage of her income goes to her state retirement plan, but I assume it's likely 2-4 percent. As for my retirement plan at work I am currently only doing the minimum to get the match which is 2%. As I mentioned I plan on increasing this by 3% each year since this is my annual raise. That would put us anywhere between 29-32% of our income saved.

We did decide to discuss our finances. I explained to her that I didn't like having this much control and that I felt for our relationship to be more positive going forward that I would like to discuss a new arrangement. She was open to it but uncomfortable. She explained that she has been taken care of her entire life and that someone has always been around to help get her out of any issues. She says because of this she feels she hasn't had to take on much responsibility and has always found it easier to have someone else do it. While I acknowledged my faults and that I had gone much too far, she acknowledged that she appreciated my passion and effort, but that she also needs to be more involved if our goal of early retirement is to be achieved.

In the end, we decided that after all bills are paid, she will get access to whatever money is remaining from her income. However, we also decided that half of that should go to a ROTH IRA. The amount she has remaining is still much larger than she had before and she agreed the amount was more than sufficient. I recommended that she think about setting some of it aside each month in case something comes up that she needs to pay for and that if she had any extra that investing more was never a bad idea. I did state that the decision is entirely up to her however.

Besides that, I made it clear that I don't want any control over what she does with this additional money. I said it's her money and she can use it on whatever she wants. I explained that I will go over both of our retirement accounts several times a year so she can see where she's at. We agreed that we need to stick to our new budget and that this extra spending money is more than enough for her each month.

You two are rock stars and can actually talk to each other, which is quite an achievement at your age... Now you mention your DW has a state retirement plan. Ask her if she is OK with you exploring the ins and outs of the rules and payouts. This will help both of you understand what she might get in an ER situation. This might be the place for her to deploy extra money instead of a Roth...

Expect some back sliding and bumps in the road, that's normal. You guys are young and have a very long timeline. But for your DW's sake it's important she learn to be comfortable with money decisions. You might not always be around to guide her.

 

[Maenad]

It sounds like you guys had a great conversation! You both acknowledged your own shortcomings and gave each other props, which is awesome.

This:

She explained that she has been taken care of her entire life and that someone has always been around to help get her out of any issues. She says because of this she feels she hasn't had to take on much responsibility and has always found it easier to have someone else do it.

made me cringe a bit as a woman 15+ years down the road. Her parents did her no favors by taking care of her, unfortunately. But, she recognizes where she's at, which is good. That's the first step for all of us in fixing our parents' mistakes.

Really relying on herself for the first time can be scary, but it's necessary to be an adult. And she can do it. I mean, look at how many of us idiots manage it!

 

[Markola]

DW gets $1,000/month in her personal checking account to blow on herself however she sees fit. I get $1,000/month in my personal checking account to blow however I see fit (me being me, I save and invest half of it). The rest goes into our joint checking, from which all joint bills are paid through automatic debits. It works for us.

 

[armor99]

Financial Goals & Spouse

Normally I would not respond to this sort of a question. But it is really important, so I thought I would add my thoughts here. You are a team, there is no “I” it is “we”. You do not have a roommate that you share expenses with, she is your wife, an equal partner, no matter how much money she does or does not make.
At the same time, as you have a responsibility not to control her, she has responsibility to mature, and function as an adult in your marriage. She does not get to decide she will just not deal with finances. She does not have to become a finance nerd, she does need to shoulder the responsibility and weight of decision making with you.
If you sat her down, and told her you needed help with the finances would she really just say “no thanks” That is an unacceptable answer from a wife. And the same would apply to you if she were to ask you for help in an area that you might not be as skillful in...

 

[HI Bill]

My folks were married for something like 48 years, then divorced. My dad controlled the finances, as much as he could. He paid the 'major bills' including mortgage, insurances, vehicles, utilities, etc. He put joint money away in 403(b) investments. He liked to spend his money on travel, computers, and camera gear.

My mom had a 'budget', which was part of her income. Her budget was to be spent on groceries, eating out, hair, gifts, household (furniture, etc.), supplies for her classroom, etc. She was terrible in controlling her spending, and wasted lots of money. She used spending as her only way of exerting power in the marriage. She ran up credit card debt several times, which my dad ended up paying off. Money was one part of the dysfunctional marriage. She never, ever balanced her checkbook. She spent what she wanted on 'expenses', and never saw any of her spending as discretionary. In the last 10 years of her marriage, on the advice of her coworkers, she opened up a 'secret' savings account, and started saving some 'emergency/divorce' money. Money was the source of countless screaming matches, and one of the two or three control issues in the marriage which were never solved. She bought magazines off the rack at the grocery store, bought excessive groceries weekly (and we had to throw out the ones from previous weeks that had gone bad). She spent multiple thousands of dollars on school supplies and food for her students annually. If she had learned how not to waste money, both her, and my father would have had a much better, more sanctimonious marriage, and they would have been in far better shape financially when they eventually divorced.

Kudos to the OP for discussing the issues with his wife. Hopefully, they can find a middle ground, but zebras don't change their stripes (either his, nor hers).

 

[SpinDoctorTX]

Lots of good advice in here. You both seem very self aware, which can help you achieve a balance as a team providing you both put in the work required for a good happy marriage. Achieving a balance can be really hard. I tried to w/ my spendthrift ex but eventually it and other similar issues caused me to walk away.

Do try to remember to have fun- lighten up a bit for heaven's sake! You're both young, and a big part of those decades is making happy memories together. One can easily travel on a small budget- we AirBnB it for 50-60 bucks a night a lot of the time, even though we could easily afford more.

You can buy an early retirement, but you sure as heck cannot buy back lost love or wasted years.

 

[Maidensong]

This sounds like a relationship problem because you're handling the financial aspects, albeit with her grudging agreement. She wants more money to spend on things she doesn't really need, you say.

Maybe she does need them. Maybe she's "buying her feelings." The overspending may be a manifestation of a deeper issue. Would she (and you!) be willing to spend some money with a counselor to get to the bottom of it? The marriage you save may be your own.

 

[athena53]

She explained that she has been taken care of her entire life and that someone has always been around to help get her out of any issues. She says because of this she feels she hasn't had to take on much responsibility and has always found it easier to have someone else do it.

It's a big step for her to realize this. Point out to her the uncomfortable fact that most women outlive their husbands. First of all, this means she has a major stake in long-term finances. Second, no matter how carefully you plan to provide for her in case of your early demise (e.g., lots of life insurance), unless she feels empowered she's likely to find someone to "help" her manage the finances and the results could be disastrous, whether it's a predatory advisor, a greedy family member, a gold-digger boyfriend or a "friend" with a can't miss business opportunity. This is a skill she needs to develop for herself and her future.

 

[imoldernu]

Married 61 years. Mutual respect... No problems.