landlord seeking help

About 30 years ago, when I was in law school, we had what they called the clinical program, through which second year and older law students could appear in court and gain practical experience under the supervision of practicing attorneys. For example, I worked with battered women to get restraining orders against their abusers. It was all volunteer work; there were no fees to the clients.

One of the available programs was called the Landlord/Tenant Clinic, which entailed Yale Law Students representing poor tenants in New Haven during the eviction process. Essentially, what they did was throw up every and any possible defense to keep the tenants in their apartments for as long as possible and finally negotiate the terms of their departure with the landlord, which often consisted of effectively paying the tenants to move out.

Toward the end of my first year, someone working in the Landlord/Tenant Clinic gave a presentation to members of my class to convince us of the need to sign up for it the next year. I recall the student explaining what they did and thinking to myself that it sounded like an unfair burden to the landlords if the tenant was clearly not paying rent and there was nothing wrong with the apartment. So I asked about it. She justified it by pointing out that affordable housing was a great and pressing need, and, besides, they were just "giving the slumlords what they deserve."

That conversation struck with me, and two years later, as part of a mandatory independent study program, I decided to follow up on the issue. I teamed up with two classmates and we split the project up. We picked the worst of the New Haven slum areas, which consisted of nearly identical triple-decker buildings that had been built in the late 19th or early 20th century to house workers in the factories that once flourished there. We found out who owned every building in that neighborhood and how many other buildings they owned. We tried to determine a pro forma financial statement for a typical landlord, based on estimates of market rents in the neighborhood, financing costs, repair and maintenance, vacancy rates, etc. By looking through the court files, we made an estimate of both the delays and the extra legal costs imposed in cases that involved the landlord/tenant clinic versus those that did not. Finally, we interviewed a large number of landlords about their experiences as well as to confirm our estimates. (All of this was much harder in the days before the internet).

What we found was that the majority of the buildings were still owned by one person who lived in the first floor and rented out the upper two floors. Those owners typically did not own any other property. There was, however, a gradual but growing tendency by a few landlords to acquire additional buildings in the neighborhood. We found that the participation of the landlord/tenant clinic almost always resulted in a delay of several months in any eviction process and cost the landlords several thousand dollars in legal fees. We found that these months of lost rent, coupled with the increased legal costs, often resulted in negative cash flow for the individual landlords. Through our interviews, we learned that, eventually, after repeated run ins with non-paying tenants represented by the landlord/tenant clinic, a growing number of the landlords were giving up and selling their property to the multi-property operators (i.e. - the real slumlords), who could afford to take on the clinic in court.

From all this, we concluded that the landlord/tenant clinic was, in fact, creating the very monster they purported to be fighting. We admitted that the lack of affordable housing was a pressing social need, but suggested that they might better direct their energies toward obtaining government funding for that housing rather than laying that burden on individual private landlords. Our suggestion was not well received.
 
I'mma stick with stocks and bonds, just not ruthless enough to be a successful landlord.

+1 Stocks and bonds for me.... I manage a single tenant commercial property for my Mom.... thankfully my Dad divested his residential apartments before he passed... they are much more time consuming.
 
At the end of the day, I think it is really about how much drama do you want to let into your life.
I am fairly certain that is the roles were reversed... those same tenants would not be this level of forgiving. On some level tenants do understand that if they do not pay, they cannot stay. How about this? Tell them you have fallen on some hard times, you are really sorry but you need to sell the place. As a thank you for being such a “good” tenant for these last 10 years. You can skip 2 months rent, (or whatever length of time you like.) But they have be gone by “x” date. Then you can turn around and rent it to some better people that hopefully will not cause you a hassle. Maybe the 2 months free rent will stop them from trashing the place...
 
Senator, I was not a teacher. I teach a online college class since retiring. We got out of the landlord business after 13 years.

We only had 2 rentals and didn’t often get put into a situation where we needed to do what was morally right but at times lost money. We had someone do much damage that their security didn’t totally cover. We spent every spare minute fixing it and then sold it.

I wouldn’t sue someone and cause them to lose their current home. I was a social worker so I certainly couldn’t find joy in evictions. Even my much tougher husband felt the same when people hit hard times.

If you only had two rentals, you can hardly even say you were a landlord. With two rentals, you can get lucky and not even have to screen tenants. It is pretty easy to be a landlord, and even you lost money at times. If I want to give money to charity, I can donate to a worthy cause.

My rentals are part of my retirement, I do not let tenants take that away from me. Perhaps if you would have had to go back to work due to a tenant not paying, it may feel different for you.

If a student, due to medical reasons, cannot afford to put in the time to complete the necessary coursework, do they still get credit for the class? Or do you delay the graduation (with a deadline) and still make them complete the required coursework? My guess is that you take away the class achievement, and thereby decreasing their household income, potentially for the rest of their lives. That in turn increases their chance of losing their home. Do you give some students an 'A', while other students that do the same amount of work, and had lower grades a 'C' (or less)?

Often people will criticize others, while at the same time doing a similar thing letting others do the dirty work. Like someone that is opposed to hunting or trapping, and yet still eats meat and wears leather shoes.

I don't see how anyone can "enjoy" an eviction - a tedious process that costs the landlord time and money, and typically makes all the neighbors hate the mean landlord (in neighbors' eyes, either you let your tenants get away with murder, or you are mean to them).

Exactly. Although once you start an eviction, it is a great feeling when the tenant is out. You can have 100 tenants, and if you have one that is not paying, it tends to consume you. If you let one tenant pay late, Fair Housing Laws would indicate that you have to let all tenants pay late.

I give the stage-4 cancer situation to illustrate that if you are going to be a landlord, you may have to do that. If you are not prepared to do it, you are not prepared to be a landlord. If you are not actively paying someone else's rent now, why would you do it after you purchase a rental? If you are eating steak, you just paid someone to kill a cow. Maybe even a cute one.
 
A student gets a incomplete and is allowed to complete the class the following semester in answer to your question. So the college is not taking anything away from them.
 
About 30 years ago, when I was in law school, we had what they called the clinical program, through which second year and older law students could appear in court and gain practical experience under the supervision of practicing attorneys. For example, I worked with battered women to get restraining orders against their abusers. It was all volunteer work; there were no fees to the clients.

One of the available programs was called the Landlord/Tenant Clinic, which entailed Yale Law Students representing poor tenants in New Haven during the eviction process. Essentially, what they did was throw up every and any possible defense to keep the tenants in their apartments for as long as possible and finally negotiate the terms of their departure with the landlord, which often consisted of effectively paying the tenants to move out.

Toward the end of my first year, someone working in the Landlord/Tenant Clinic gave a presentation to members of my class to convince us of the need to sign up for it the next year. I recall the student explaining what they did and thinking to myself that it sounded like an unfair burden to the landlords if the tenant was clearly not paying rent and there was nothing wrong with the apartment. So I asked about it. She justified it by pointing out that affordable housing was a great and pressing need, and, besides, they were just "giving the slumlords what they deserve."

That conversation struck with me, and two years later, as part of a mandatory independent study program, I decided to follow up on the issue. I teamed up with two classmates and we split the project up. We picked the worst of the New Haven slum areas, which consisted of nearly identical triple-decker buildings that had been built in the late 19th or early 20th century to house workers in the factories that once flourished there. We found out who owned every building in that neighborhood and how many other buildings they owned. We tried to determine a pro forma financial statement for a typical landlord, based on estimates of market rents in the neighborhood, financing costs, repair and maintenance, vacancy rates, etc. By looking through the court files, we made an estimate of both the delays and the extra legal costs imposed in cases that involved the landlord/tenant clinic versus those that did not. Finally, we interviewed a large number of landlords about their experiences as well as to confirm our estimates. (All of this was much harder in the days before the internet).

What we found was that the majority of the buildings were still owned by one person who lived in the first floor and rented out the upper two floors. Those owners typically did not own any other property. There was, however, a gradual but growing tendency by a few landlords to acquire additional buildings in the neighborhood. We found that the participation of the landlord/tenant clinic almost always resulted in a delay of several months in any eviction process and cost the landlords several thousand dollars in legal fees. We found that these months of lost rent, coupled with the increased legal costs, often resulted in negative cash flow for the individual landlords. Through our interviews, we learned that, eventually, after repeated run ins with non-paying tenants represented by the landlord/tenant clinic, a growing number of the landlords were giving up and selling their property to the multi-property operators (i.e. - the real slumlords), who could afford to take on the clinic in court.

From all this, we concluded that the landlord/tenant clinic was, in fact, creating the very monster they purported to be fighting. We admitted that the lack of affordable housing was a pressing social need, but suggested that they might better direct their energies toward obtaining government funding for that housing rather than laying that burden on individual private landlords. Our suggestion was not well received.

Thanks for your great input.

I experience this type of thing as a tiny landlord.
I have to follow the same rules as a multi-thousand unit holding landlord. The size factor makes this easier and cheaper for big landlords as the cost of doing anything is spread over many units.

Rent control is an example, each year I spend about 10 minutes looking up the rules and allowed amount. A landlord with 100 units only has to look it up once , but per unit their 'cost' is 0.1 minute (6 seconds) per unit.
 
A student gets a incomplete and is allowed to complete the class the following semester in answer to your question. So the college is not taking anything away from them.


Exactly. And if they cannot complete it, they lose the credit. It doesn't matter what the reason is.

Much like a successful landlord does. If the tenant doesn't pay, out they go. No matter the reason.
 
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Not all landlords treat tenants the same way. There is not a single narrow path for treating tenants which determines whether the landlord makes a profit or not.
 
Not all landlords treat tenants the same way. There is not a single narrow path for treating tenants which determines whether the landlord makes a profit or not.

100% true, although a landlord must treat all their tenants the same way. That is Fair Housing 101.

If you give single people with kids a break on the late fees, but do not do it for a married or childless couple, that is illegal.

There are ways to maximize profits, and avoiding low-quality tenants is the first defense. Charging late fees is another. Starting evictions sooner, rather than later is a good way. Keeping good tenants happy with a quality place goes a long way to profitability.

Letting tenants stay that do not pay rent is a sure-fire way to lose money. The IRS may even deny your ability to take a deduction, or make you count income you should have collected as income. If you do not treat the rental as a business, and that includes charging market rents (or close to it), it is not a business and you cannot take a loss.
 
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Not all landlords treat tenants the same way. There is not a single narrow path for treating tenants which determines whether the landlord makes a profit or not.



There are 2 modes to the LL game

Allowing late rent, minimal or no financial penalty or consequences for late rent, and collecting $300/door/mo less than market rent while expenses go up and inflation is positive, is Hard mode

Personally I prefer Easy mode
 
One guy I know gives a small discount for people who pay the rent about 3 days early. He claims this has eliminated a lot of collection headaches. Of course, he screens his renters carefully before signing the lease.
 
There are 2 modes to the LL game

Allowing late rent, minimal or no financial penalty or consequences for late rent, and collecting $300/door/mo less than market rent while expenses go up and inflation is positive, is Hard mode

Personally I prefer Easy mode

There's a middle path.
 
One guy I know gives a small discount for people who pay the rent about 3 days early. He claims this has eliminated a lot of collection headaches. Of course, he screens his renters carefully before signing the lease.


Legally, that is the same as a late fee. Screening tenants properly is the key to success as a landlord.
 
Screening tenants properly is the key to success as a landlord.


Well this is one piece of advice I definitely agree with.

In my experience I set the rent at a place that was NOT maximum but rather got me a decent size pool of applicants so I could pick one with perfect or near perfect credit and a stable well paying job.

I always had less qualified people saying “first come” and I made sure I had enough applications over a few days so I could pick the most qualified person not the first minimally qualified person.

I sincerely believe that the slight lower monthly gross was offset by the greatly reduced vacancy and also the qualitative less headaches.

In an age of increasing tenant rights. The one leverage a landlord has for late or non paying tenants is the damage to their credit if they don’t pay. This doesn’t work if the tenant has marginal credit to begin with.
 
There's a middle path.

100% true, as long as you treat all your tenants the same way. And I am sure that there is no middle path for letting tenants stay months without paying. Even if they have health issues.

Well this is one piece of advice I definitely agree with.

In my experience I set the rent at a place that was NOT maximum but rather got me a decent size pool of applicants so I could pick one with perfect or near perfect credit and a stable well paying job.

I always had less qualified people saying “first come” and I made sure I had enough applications over a few days so I could pick the most qualified person not the first minimally qualified person.

This strategy would be illegal in MN. And many other states I would assume. It's first come, first served (or rejected), then on to the next applicant. There is no legal way to 'sort' tenants.

It is illegal to take a screening fee if you do not have a unit available, that means if you accepted a previous applicant, you did not have a unit available.

If you reject a minimally qualified applicant, you must give the screening fee back. Like when a better qualified applicant that applies later. Minimally qualified is still qualified.

All your screening criteria must be in writing so a tenant can self-screen.

If you 'accidently' exclude applicants that are a protected class, you are violating the law.

In Minneapolis, you can barely even screen tenants.

Under the inclusive screening process, property owners are forbidden from rejecting a potential tenant for having an insufficient credit score, or for having insufficient credit history.

Landlords are also forbidden from turning down potential tenants for any misdemeanor convictions older than three years and for most felony convictions older than seven years.

The inclusive screening process also prevents landlords from rejecting tenants for evictions older than three years.

https://reason.com/2019/09/17/minne...criminal-history-credit-score-past-evictions/
 
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100% true, as long as you treat all your tenants the same way. And I am sure that there is no middle path for letting tenants stay months without paying. Even if they have health issues.



This strategy would be illegal in MN. And many other states I would assume. It's first come, first served (or rejected), then on to the next applicant. There is no legal way to 'sort' tenants.

It is illegal to take a screening fee if you do not have a unit available, that means if you accepted a previous applicant, you did not have a unit available.

If you reject a minimally qualified applicant, you must give the screening fee back. Like when a better qualified applicant that applies later. Minimally qualified is still qualified.

All your screening criteria must be in writing so a tenant can self-screen.

If you 'accidently' exclude applicants that are a protected class, you are violating the law.

In Minneapolis, you can barely even screen tenants.

As I mentioned way above this varies tremendously by state and municipality. In mine you can absolutely take the most qualified applicant as applications take time (to get references etc). To be fair to my potential tenants, I actually run the credit check / criminal / eviction check LAST, and don't take or refund the fee if there is a problem I see before (like insufficient income or inability to document income) or someone more qualified comes along before I have been able to verify employment 2nd past landlord reference etc. What you can't do is reject a qualified applicant while waiting for something "better"

I don't take anyone with a late payment history on their credit at all in the past year, and if older than one year, need a decent and verifiable explanation.

To the other poster who suggested my approach is illegal....its not.
 
If you can't exclude for having a bad credit score, how do you know if your tenant will pay the rent? Are you still allowed to contact previous landlords?

Interestingly (now that it's well in the past) one of the three genuinely PITA tenants we ever had, possessed a credit score of 800. We had to take them, but even at the time I remember our hackles being up. It turned out we should have trusted our hackles...that's not illegal now, is it? :angel:

In Minneapolis, you can barely even screen tenants.
 
It really sticks in my mind, how many years ago, prospective tenants presented the following:

Young fellow, neat and clean showed up by himself, he planned to use the house as a shared accommodation for himself and fellow College students..

Pretty couple, fancy shiny car, well dressed, credit score ok, but showed failure to pay a couple of bills....

Email offers to pay fully year rent in advance..

I rejected all the above, based on credit score, or credit history, lack of references.
 
If you can't exclude for having a bad credit score, how do you know if your tenant will pay the rent? Are you still allowed to contact previous landlords?

Interestingly (now that it's well in the past) one of the three genuinely PITA tenants we ever had, possessed a credit score of 800. We had to take them, but even at the time I remember our hackles being up. It turned out we should have trusted our hackles...that's not illegal now, is it? :angel:

The rule is that if the tenant has a 500+ credit score, you have to accept that. MPLS looked at the demographics and saw that the average credit score in N. Mpls was 575. So they settled on a 500 score being good enough.

Maybe you can say if you are more than 30 days late, on a single account in the past 5 years, you get rejected?

I would use credit score anyway. It's the only way to limit bad tenants consistently. No other method works as well.

You can still contact previous LLs, although that is the most unreliable method of tenant screening that there is. If they were evicted over three years ago, that eviction doesn't count.
 
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The rule is that if the tenant has a 500+ credit score, you have to accept that. MPLS looked at the demographics and saw that the average credit score in N. Mpls was 575. So they settled on a 500 score being good enough.

Maybe you can say if you are more than 30 days late, on a single account in the past 5 years, you get rejected?

I would use credit score anyway. It's the only way to limit bad tenants consistently. No other method works as well.

You can still contact previous LLs, although that is the most unreliable method of tenant screening that there is. If they were evicted over three years ago, that eviction doesn't count.

Aren't your rentals there? If so, what are you doing about this?
 
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