Need Help for a long time friend with spending issues.

[brett]

There is a huge difference between owning a home free and clear and owning a home with liens on it from financial institutions, city property tax, or the IRS.

One step may be to check for any liens, etc.

Better to find out now rather than baking the home equity value into any potential financial position.

Difficult if not impossible to help someone who will not accept your help. All you can do is review options and outcomes with him.

 

[Badger]

This sounds so much like my best friend of 60 years from HS. He successfully lost everything (house, wife, job, car, teeth, etc.) and had nothing but a $1k/month SS check. He also did a lot of smoking, drinking, and drug use. I did what I could by driving a few hours down state every month to take him out for breakfast and dinner and some groceries. I put a little money in his account when he was arrested and put in jail for repeated DUI so he could have a bit of cash for personal needs. I also spent a few days on the computer making lists of free fun things to do, all the government programs available for him with addresses and links to the local and national offices. All of this he chose not to follow through on. I also gave him my motorcycle i had planned on selling so he would have some transportation other than an old bicycle.

He was about rock bottom as it gets but evidently not willing to admit to making some changes. I continued to stay in touch and make sure he had a friend to talk to. He finally drove to a cemetery and put a gun to his head. Even did that poorly and lasted long enough to die in the hospital.


I finally came to the realization that nothing I could do would change the behavior. There came a time when I had to stop enabling and I had done all I could.



Cheers!

 

[BubbaChris]

Ivinsfan - I have so much respect for your compassion and your ability to keep your perspective.

You have also been kind and appreciative of the many replies and ideas generated here.

Regardless of the outcome, you are doing good.

Best regards,
Chris

 

[pb4uski]

What is he in danger of? At this point, since he hasn’t filed, how would the IRS determine if he owes any money? As far as I can see the only thing he is guilty of is failure to file. I knew someone who didn’t file for years and got letters from IRS requesting they filed. They got money back.

The OP mentioned that his failure to file started when he made tax-deferred account withdrawals and didn't want to or have the money to pay the taxes so I'm guessing that he would be subject to both failure to file and underpayment penalties. interest, etc.

 

[NW-Bound]

Addictions are really a mental health issue, and most mental health issues, especially addiction, these days are linked to diet & one's microbiome - "The stomach produces 90% of our serotonin and 50% of our dopamine, both neurotransmitters that make us feel good and “normal”, in addition to performing many functions that lead to improved mental and physical health. The typical American diet consists of a lot of processed foods, and people with addiction sometimes don’t eat much at all. Both lead to an insufficient amount of good bacteria in the stomach, which means the brain and body don’t get what they need in multiple areas." - https://cornercanyonhc.com/gut-brain-connection/ Here is a list of evidence based foods for depression - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6147775/...

Scientists do! Really, it starts in the gut - https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-your-brain-on-food-201511168626

+1. If you want to do 1 thing, start here with the aging office. If you are willing to do 2 things, bring him healthy food to eat that is easy to prepare. If he isn't getting the right nutrition, he may never be able to think clearly or logically. Even talking to a therapist isn't going to fix any gut and blood sugar issues he might have, and current science says many mental health issues really begin in the gut. Or at least buy him some probiotics or yogurt - Gut Bacteria's Role in Anxiety and Depression: It’s Not Just In Your Head, https://www.discovermagazine.com/mi...iety-and-depression-its-not-just-in-your-head.

I do not doubt that good nutrition helps both physical and mental health.

The problem is how to persuade an addict to drop his pills or his syringe and pick up a fork to dig into a plate of salad.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I do not doubt that good nutrition helps both physical and mental health.

The problem is how to persuade an addict to drop his pills or his syringe and pick up a fork to dig into a plate of salad.

I know someone who seriously is simply a different person after just a salad, but often it is one I make and bring to them. Ivinsfan is looking for things to do that might help. Some home cooking and buying healthy groceries are easy things to do, could have a big impact and may help his blood sugar. There is no downside to trying the food and it is a science backed potential solution, both for blood sugar and mental health.

 

[Sunset]

A few have mentioned opening the mail to see the IRS news... I would guess the friend has also missed paying property tax.
There could be notices about an impending tax sale of the house in that mail.

I think OP buying food, making meals, having the friend over for dinner, all are good ways to support him. I'll say that giving money is a bad way, based on my experience.

My sister said she needed some money to pay for moving to the retirement home we had all picked for her, as she had zero savings.
I give $2,000 to cover moving and extras about 1 month before the move.
After she moves I find a credit card bill and then another arrives at the old place. The bills reveal:
Her credit card had cut her off as she was maxed out. She then used most of the money I had given for the move to pay onto the credit card, the next bill showed the payment, and since she had paid a lump sum, the credit card company RAISED her limit so she could now spend a lot more which she did.

Key lesson to me: She lied about the money need, and then used it carry on as before thanks to the sucker me.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Two additional thoughts:

Isn't it likely that he hasn't paid property taxes and the town he resides in is well along the way to taking the property?

This situation sounds like he would be a good candidate for a conservatorship. Would he go along with a court solution that would resolve his problems for the long term?

 

[steady saver]

This sounds so much like my best friend of 60 years from HS. He successfully lost everything (house, wife, job, car, teeth, etc.) and had nothing but a $1k/month SS check. He also did a lot of smoking, drinking, and drug use. I did what I could by driving a few hours down state every month to take him out for breakfast and dinner and some groceries. I put a little money in his account when he was arrested and put in jail for repeated DUI so he could have a bit of cash for personal needs. I also spent a few days on the computer making lists of free fun things to do, all the government programs available for him with addresses and links to the local and national offices. All of this he chose not to follow through on. I also gave him my motorcycle i had planned on selling so he would have some transportation other than an old bicycle.

He was about rock bottom as it gets but evidently not willing to admit to making some changes. I continued to stay in touch and make sure he had a friend to talk to. He finally drove to a cemetery and put a gun to his head. Even did that poorly and lasted long enough to die in the hospital.


I finally came to the realization that nothing I could do would change the behavior. There came a time when I had to stop enabling and I had done all I could.



Cheers!

Sadly that was my point. That's why OP might want to decide what one option he can offer his friend that draws a clear boundary line for his involvement, while having compassion for his friend as well as himself for what a difficult situation this is. That can include compassion for yourself for feeling angry that you're pulled into this situation. It's perfectly normal to be angry at someone you love that leaves you feeling helpless and at a loss. It's not your job to find the perfect solution for him b/c it sounds like no solution is going to be good in his mind. The best thing you can do is decide where your own boundary lies and stick with it, b/c he clearly is showing that he does not have a grasp of healthy boundaries. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but what you're going through is no picnic either.

 

[Letj]

The OP mentioned that his failure to file started when he made tax-deferred account withdrawals and didn't want to or have the money to pay the taxes so I'm guessing that he would be subject to both failure to file and underpayment penalties. interest, etc.

Good point! Missed that. I doubt he’ll face any jail time as the poster implied.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

Your friend knows what he needs to do. He just needs emotional support from his real friends. Stand with him by being a good listener. He’ll appreciate you eventually.

 

[TheWizard]

I like the idea of an in-person "committee" approach to this problem. Three people max, if possible.
It looks more like an intervention that way, fine.

While the forensic accountant amongst you is opening all those IRS letters, the other two can discuss other issues.
Good luck...

 

[ivinsfan]

Wiz we have 3 and it will happen tomorrow afternoon and Saturday...


One person is already there and has done some legwork. The kicker.. broke friend has a friend (who I also know) who transferred 2 thousand dollars to his checking account.. Not sure if that will help or hurt the situation.



The three of us that will talk to him agree the situation has reached DEFCON 1 and whatever fallout we get, even if it means he no longer speaks to us, is unavoidable.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Good luck Ivinsfan. You're a good friend. I hope you are successful, but if you are not, accept that you did all could. He has made his bed and now must live with it.

 

[ivinsfan]

Your friend knows what he needs to do. He just needs emotional support from his real friends. Stand with him by being a good listener. He’ll appreciate you eventually.

I don't actually care if he appreciates me, I just want him to take some steps to fix his problems. They don't talk about killing the messenger for nothing.

 

[ivinsfan]

I know someone who seriously is simply a different person after just a salad, but often it is one I make and bring to them. Ivinsfan is looking for things to do that might help. Some home cooking and buying healthy groceries are easy things to do, could have a big impact and may help his blood sugar. There is no downside to trying the food and it is a science backed potential solution, both for blood sugar and mental health.

I'm doing a Walmart pickup on our way to his house tomorrow all food that is good for blood sugar and some staples.



I found out from friend who is there now, the truck cannot be driven since the gas tank is on empty. So he'll have to eat the healthy stuff.

 

[Gremlin]

Fingers crossed for you all, especially your friend.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I'm doing a Walmart pickup on our way to his house tomorrow all food that is good for blood sugar and some staples.

I found out from friend who is there now, the truck cannot be driven since the gas tank is on empty. So he'll have to eat the healthy stuff.

Hope it helps! You might try having a nice meal together before the intervention. It might help to stabilize his mood as much as possible and he maybe be able to think a little more clearly about your suggestions if he is well fed.

 

[ivinsfan]

Hope it helps! You might try having a nice meal together before the intervention. It might help to stabilize his mood as much as possible and he maybe be able to think a little more clearly about your suggestions if he is well fed.

I'm hoping to ease into it and let flow without having it seem like a reality TV show...but we will spend time some breaking bread (not literal bread) before hand...


I'm actually kind of tense about it...but tough love and all that you know. It's fine to talk about helping people , but actually getting down in the trenches and doing it is a little scary.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I'm hoping to ease into it and let flow without having it seem like a reality TV show...but we will spend time some breaking bread (not literal bread) before hand...


I'm actually kind of tense about it...but tough love and all that you know. It's fine to talk about helping people , but actually getting down in the trenches and doing it is a little scary.

I get that it is tough. I was in a similar spot as you a few years back with someone in our circle of family and friends facing homelessness with a combination of mental health and simply poor judgement issues. I didn't want to see them homeless and I didn't want them living with us, even though we have spare bedrooms. I asked the posters on this board for help, received tons of amazing advice, distilled it, had an intervention meeting, presented the "general plan" with lots of good options, offered financial support if they followed the plan or had substitute plan, but the advice was not accepted. But you know what? I always felt good that I tried. I still bought them groceries after that but I didn't didn't feel guilty for not letting them move in with us. I felt the distilled wisdom of the crowd here that I presented to them provided excellent career and financial advice, but at the end of the day it is their life and their choices.

 

[Bamaman]

Below are some signs of mental deficiencies that I've experienced with others around me--friends and relatives.
1. They subsist on ramen noodles and tuna fish.
2. Groceries at the rear of the car in the bag, and the plastic bags have turned to powder from age.
3. Found 2,000 lbs. of cloth that was going to be used to make pillows for the church bazaar.
4. Found a ball of rubber bands as big as a softball. Also collects used aluminum foil in mass.
5. 1,000 pounds of jelly jars under the steps that were going to be used in canning, but they don't have a garden or go to any farmer's markets. I'd hate to see how much bread went into toast to use up so much jelly.
6. They get a new car and it's banged up on all corners where they'd hit other cars and objects in parking lots--and they don't know they did it. No repairs are made.
7. We cannot get them on the telephone because they didn't pay the bill. We find out the electricity has been cut off by the power company for non-payment, and the house is in a very exclusive neighborhood.
8. Papers piled up on kitchen table a foot high, and at least $50,000 in various checks were in unopened envelopes. Many checks had to be reissued.
9. They only eat organic foods, and cases and cases of food that comes by FedEx is sitting all over the house uneaten.
10. Extremely high powered computers are purchased along with $10,000 programs that produce animated films. They don't have a job to use the computer program.
11. Found pirated satellite service, cable tv and internet programs without payment. "All I have is time in my retirement, and with enough time I can figure out how to do anything on a computer." Well, go after the Russian hackers if you're looking for something to do.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Below are some signs of mental deficiencies that I've experienced with others around me--friends and relatives.
1. They subsist on ramen noodles and tuna fish.
2. Groceries at the rear of the car in the bag, and the plastic bags have turned to powder from age.
3. Found 2,000 lbs. of cloth that was going to be used to make pillows for the church bazaar.
4. Found a ball of rubber bands as big as a softball. Also collects used aluminum foil in mass.
5. 1,000 pounds of jelly jars under the steps that were going to be used in canning, but they don't have a garden or go to any farmer's markets. I'd hate to see how much bread went into toast to use up so much jelly.
6. They get a new car and it's banged up on all corners where they'd hit other cars and objects in parking lots--and they don't know they did it. No repairs are made.
7. We cannot get them on the telephone because they didn't pay the bill. We find out the electricity has been cut off by the power company for non-payment, and the house is in a very exclusive neighborhood.
8. Papers piled up on kitchen table a foot high, and at least $50,000 in various checks were in unopened envelopes. Many checks had to be reissued.
9. They only eat organic foods, and cases and cases of food that comes by FedEx is sitting all over the house uneaten.
10. Extremely high powered computers are purchased along with $10,000 programs that produce animated films. They don't have a job to use the computer program.
11. Found pirated satellite service, cable tv and internet programs without payment. "All I have is time in my retirement, and with enough time I can figure out how to do anything on a computer." Well, go after the Russian hackers if you're looking for something to do.

Wow, that is quite a list!

 

[ivinsfan]

Bamaman I feel for you...

 

[Markola]

OP, we once had friends who were way over extended and spoke to us about it, though they didn’t ask for a loan. Bankruptcy got them out of the immediate crisis. With their permission, I sent them a copy of Total Money Makeover. I never had any indication that they even read it. They did get divorced not long offer. We’ve stayed friends with the husband and he’s continued to struggle. He once asked for help to budget, so I showed him how to use YNAB. It didn’t stick. He once asked for help with retirement planning, and I think he took some basic advice to start a Target Date Fund. I suggested he try to work until he’s 70 to get full SS and he liked that idea. He’s also had three new cars in the last 7 years. Now he’s moving in with his new girlfriend, who’s a nice lady. I am worried for her finances, honestly, and hope she can lay down rules to contain his impulses.

Point is, you can give someone the keys to a better future but they have to drive. Bankruptcy seems like your friend’s best bet.

 

[ivinsfan]

OP, we once had friends who were way over extended and spoke to us about it, though they didn’t ask for a loan. Bankruptcy got them out of the immediate crisis. With their permission, I sent them a copy of Total Money Makeover. I never had any indication that they even read it. They did get divorced not long offer. We’ve stayed friends with the husband and he’s continued to struggle. He once asked for help to budget, so I showed him how to use YNAB. It didn’t stick. He once asked for help with retirement planning, and I think he took some basic advice to start a Target Date Fund. I suggested he try to work until he’s 70 to get full SS and he liked that idea. He’s also had three new cars in the last 7 years. Now he’s moving in with his new girlfriend, who’s a nice lady. I am worried for her finances, honestly, and hope she can lay down rules to contain his impulses.

Point is, you can give someone the keys to a better future but they have to drive. Bankruptcy seems like your friend’s best bet.

It isn't because his debt is in the maybe 50K range and he has a paid off house worth at least 600 to 800. His problem is lack of income to stay living in a house that costs a bare minimum of 18-20 in taxes, util, etc.


The RE taxes alone are eating him alive.