Abandoning EVs

[Aerides]

I rented a Hertz Tesla in June. They also sent me an email with some instructional videos, which I found very helpful. I also got some good tips here.

I think anyone renting a Tesla needs to do a little homework, and if they’re not willing to put in a little effort before picking up the car, they should rent something else.

I was new to hertz's president club thing, and presented with a row of Teslas. I'd reserved just an entry sedan with no mention of EV. Perhaps they give too many of the upgrades to folks like me who are not aware of the differences. The hotel valet was more helpful to me than any hertz employee!

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

I had never driven a Tesla before wehn I rented one from Hertz. The Hertz employee was VERY helpful, and gave me a concise-but-thorough explanation of the essential features (as well as many non-essential ones). He probably spent 10 minutes with me. It was difficult to take in all he had to say that quickly, but the crash course was very useful.

 

[Car-Guy]

EV should be a 2nd or 3rd vehicle for close proximity driving. The gubberment should not pick winners and losers.

The cost should be lower for EV. A $70k, $80k, and up EV makes no sense for the middle class Americans. The ultra rich can always do whatever they want.

Hybrids and plug in hybrids make sense right now. The only thing I can predict is oil and oil products are not going anwywhere in the next 10 years and likely far beyond that.

You must be kidding to think your comments will ever be accepted by an EV enthusiast or especially the government.

You have far too much common sense.

 

[twirler]

Looks like my Chevy Bolt will be a classic someday when all other EV's are foreign made or Tesla.

I have to agree, cost pressures in building a totally new business (EV's for U.S. legacy companies) are killing them.

But when I picked up my Bolt EUV, a new Chev Pickup was on the floor and the sticker was $85,000. I'll bet they are not losing money on that truck! And the Camero next to it was $49,000 (really a nothing special Camero).

Oh, and new Vette in the lot in front was $140,000 (loaded). Sold sticker on it.

You have to make a sale on those autos to take a loss on them. Just because people say that's the price doesn't mean anyones buying.

 

[Texas Proud]

Buc-ee’s often have 16 or 20 chargers. They typically use pre-fab chargers which come in sets of 4 mounted on a long concrete base. Very fast to install. I’ve seen a setup installed in less than 10 days.

However some are very large. There’s 24 at the one in New Braunfels TX, and 48 at the new one in Temple TX!

Yep, Buc-ee is not a dumb guy... any way to get you into his store...

 

[aja8888]

You have to make a sale on those autos to take a loss on them. Just because people say that's the price doesn't mean anyones buying.

GM is not taking losses on their ICE vehicles at those prices, and I'll bet the dealers aren't either.

And they (vehicles) all appear to get sold. What the legacy companies are taking losses on are the EVs and they admit it. All of the built car/trucks/SUVs/EVs are sold to the selling dealerships as part of the franchise agreement.

The general public are taking the losses through depreciation.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

I think that EVs as a primary car will be a hard sell until the recharging technology and infrastructure is built out so one can travel on long 1,000+ mile cross country trips as conveniently as one can in an ICE car... though I concede that is a chicken/egg type of problem.

We recently took delivery of our first hybrid, a Ford Maverick XLT FWD. Sticker says 40 city/33 highway. From Vermont to Florida we averaged 31 mpg but were cruising at 75 mph most of the time... if I had been running 70 mph I suspect that I would have been at the 33 highway. In mixed driving around town I get 42 mpg, a little better than the sticker.

Greenhouse gas emmisions are 7 on a scale of 10, and are 15% and 25% lower than the average car or light truck, respectively.

Until the charging infrastructure is developed so you can charge up in 15 minutes or so, so it is competitive to an ICE car, I think EV sales will struggle but hybrids are a good interim solution.

That said, when I was working an EV would have worked fine for a second car to commute to work or errands around town as long as I remembered to plug in an recharge every night.

I was curious how a shift to all hybrid vehicles would impact climate change and found this from Bard:

Just catching up on this thread. According to Fuelly, my 22 Maverick Hybrid Lariat Lux has averaged 39.2 MPG for the life of the vehicle. Best tank MPG was 47.4, worst around 32. About 20K miles so far. Most driving is 45-55 roads but some slower and I've done a few 8-10 trips at Interstate speeds (e.g. 74) and a bunch of smaller interstate road trips of 1.5 hours each way at 74 or so.

On the EV front, I was visiting a friend in ABQ and ended up with a Volvo EV. Nice car, nice ride, good giddy-up. However, having to sit in the Walmart for a half an hour a couple times to add 20-30% juice was a pain even if I was able to go in an shop for a few things, and I wouldn't have wanted to have that vehicle if I was driving around the Southwest from city to city. But I could see having one as a commuter where I was plugged in at home every night or preferrably using free juice at work.

I'm in the camp that Hybrid's or PHEV's are the way to go, at least based on my Maverick experience to date. (I would like it even better if the empty space on the driver side underneath had batteries (like it does on the passenger side)).

 

[flyingaway]

If we can just change a battery at a gas station, that will solve the EV charging problem. In the future, EV batteries can be standardized so that changing a battery will not be a problem, like getting a propane tank at a Walmart store.

 

[mystang52]

That’s all certainly true, but I don’t know anyone who’s said everyone should have an EV now.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/why-people-dont-buy-electric-cars

Well, the state governments that mandate EV only sales by a certain date are indeed saying that.

 

[DayDreaming]

EV should be a 2nd or 3rd vehicle for close proximity driving. The gubberment should not pick winners and losers.

The cost should be lower for EV. A $70k, $80k, and up EV makes no sense for the middle class Americans. The ultra rich can always do whatever they want.

I have an EV and it's my only vehicle.

The most I've driven in 1 day is around 150 miles and I do that trip fairly often. I've never once been concerned about running out of battery, I've never even come close to needing to think about it.


IIRC, I paid about $55,000 for my Tesla Model Y. With my trade in, it was more like $45,000. It's still the most I've ever spent on a car, but nowhere near the $80 that you mention, and I know middle class Americans who have spent more on their SUVs. I know that EVs aren't for everyone but to say that they're only for the 'ultra rich' is way off the mark.

 

[Midpack]

Well, the state governments that mandate EV only sales by a certain date are indeed saying that.

I was talking about individuals who post here, but you make a fair point.

Right or wrong, governments incentivize behavior all the time, EVs aren’t unique there. Incentives work to an extent but I can think of one that has had the effect of driving behavior 100%. They tip the balance.

Evidently 14 states have indeed taken steps to mandate EV only. They won’t be successful if citizens don’t want them by the target years. Lots of ways around it unless the Fed government mandates same, they have not - and they’d be foolish to try. EV adoption will require still lower prices, better charging infrastructure, higher gas prices etc.

 

[jcretire77]

We purchased a 2024 Honda CRV Hybrid three weeks ago. First tank 47.7 mpg. I have really enjoyed driving the new car which was a replacement for a 17 year old CRV. For us hybrid technology meets our needs.

 

[RetMD21]

That link shows that the reason for lack of sales was "as a result of minuscule production volumes" and that they are ramping up, and have 90,000 reservations for their two hummer models.

So, Demand far outpacing Supply, not a lack of catching on.

Really? The closest dealer to me has a Hummer EV that's been sitting on the lot for 31 days. Reservations are not sales. Time will tell if GM can sell very many. Sales were off 82% from Q2 2022 to Q2 2023. GM's declining production volume may be at least partially due to weak demand. Time will tell.

 

[Music Lover]

IIRC, I paid about $55,000 for my Tesla Model Y. With my trade in, it was more like $45,000. It's still the most I've ever spent on a car, but nowhere near the $80 that you mention, and I know middle class Americans who have spent more on their SUVs. I know that EVs aren't for everyone but to say that they're only for the 'ultra rich' is way off the mark.

Sure there are $80k SUVs. There are also SUVs for $40k, $15k less than a Tesla.

 

[Music Lover]

In the future, EV batteries can be standardized so that changing a battery will not be a problem, like getting a propane tank at a Walmart store.

They can't (won't) even standardize something as simple as cell phone cables.

 

[Car-Guy]

If we can just change a battery at a gas station, that will solve the EV charging problem. In the future, EV batteries can be standardized so that changing a battery will not be a problem, like getting a propane tank at a Walmart store.

I get your point BUT how do you easily/quickly find the person with the key to unlocked the propane lockers at Walmart? Maybe some stores are better than others, but I've waited ~15 mins, after asking at the "courtesy desk" (now there's a contradiction in terms) for someone to show up with a key. YMMV

 

[Ronstar]

I don't think that the EV craze will catch on with truck owners/ buyers. I know a lot of truck owners and none of them would consider an electric truck. It goes beyond whether or not an EV truck is capable. EV's are just not in the mindset of a truck owner IMO

 

[aja8888]

I don't think that the EV craze will catch on with truck owners/ buyers. I know a lot of truck owners and none of them would consider an electric truck. It goes beyond whether or not an EV truck is capable. EV's are just not in the mindset of a truck owner IMO

I polled my ROMEO group friends about buying an electric truck (three have pickups). None would buy, and one guy said if it could two his 30+ foot Camper (5th wheel mount) 200 + miles without charging, he might consider one after his RAM dually diesel dies (if ever).

 

[ERD50]

If we can just change a battery at a gas station, that will solve the EV charging problem. In the future, EV batteries can be standardized so that changing a battery will not be a problem, like getting a propane tank at a Walmart store.

It's not so simple. The batteries are so large that they are basically integrated into the vehicle. They become part of the structure.

Tesla demo'd a quick swap battery years ago, it didn't go anywhere, and I'm pretty sure none of the current models could support that, the batteries don't just bolt in/out, and it wouldn't be easy for that to happen.

Maybe someone who follows Tesla closer than I do could comment on the current state of this.

Maybe a standard small module that slides into a trunk, or would mount on a bike-rack type frame, or a small trailer? Something to get you 30 miles or so (~ 10kWh), to get you to a place to charge?

But you'd need those spaced pretty close together, I can't imagine enough demand to support all the inventory.

-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

If we can just change a battery at a gas station, that will solve the EV charging problem. In the future, EV batteries can be standardized so that changing a battery will not be a problem, like getting a propane tank at a Walmart store.

I know people that take advantage of the propane tank swap to trade an older tank for a newer one. If people will do that for a $30 tank, imagine what they'll try with battery packs worth thousands.

 

[Andre1969]

I don't think that the EV craze will catch on with truck owners/ buyers. I know a lot of truck owners and none of them would consider an electric truck. It goes beyond whether or not an EV truck is capable. EV's are just not in the mindset of a truck owner IMO

I always thought that hybrid trucks were a good idea, and surprised they didn't catch on more. A full-sized truck, especially, has a lot more space to pack the extra batteries, motors, and whatever else you need in a hybrid, compared to a compact car, so it seems to me it should actually be easier to make a hybrid truck than a hybrid car.

You actually save more fuel too, if you target your efforts at the guzzlers. For instance, if you take a vehicle that gets 15 mpg, and boost it to 20, you're saving as much as if you took a vehicle that gets 20, and boosted it to 30. A 30 mpg vehicle would have to get a serious bump to around 56 mpg, to again see the same savings. And something that gets 56 mpg would have to be replaced by a pure electric.

Most heavier-duty trucks though, like 3/4 ton and up, are Diesels, I believe, so they're already probably seeing a significant fuel savings compared to a gasoline-powered engine.

I wonder, if a Diesel-electric hybrid would be viable, in a bigger truck, especially tractor trailers. I know they've pretty much always done it that way with railroad locomotives, albeit for a different reason. It was too difficult to design them, to get engine power to the wheels, because the transmission would have been overly complex, so they simply have Diesel engines that power electric motors, at the wheels, and eliminate the need for a transmission.

 

[Fermion]

I know people that take advantage of the propane tank swap to trade an older tank for a newer one. If people will do that for a $30 tank, imagine what they'll try with battery packs worth thousands.

Seems like this swap thing would only work if you didn't own the pack in the first place...which would mean every pack would have to be standardized from vehicle to vehicle. Not going to happen. We have so many different models of cars and trucks now, even in the EV market.

 

[Zathras]

It's not so simple. The batteries are so large that they are basically integrated into the vehicle. They become part of the structure.

Tesla demo'd a quick swap battery years ago, it didn't go anywhere, and I'm pretty sure none of the current models could support that, the batteries don't just bolt in/out, and it wouldn't be easy for that to happen.

Maybe someone who follows Tesla closer than I do could comment on the current state of this.

Maybe a standard small module that slides into a trunk, or would mount on a bike-rack type frame, or a small trailer? Something to get you 30 miles or so (~ 10kWh), to get you to a place to charge?

But you'd need those spaced pretty close together, I can't imagine enough demand to support all the inventory.

-ERD50

CARB had incentives for quick charging, which included battery swaps. So Tesla built a battery swap station in CA as a test.
The battery swap took about 3 minutes and cost a small amount (10s of dollars).

First, it proved unpopular, very few people took advantage of it. They would rather us a supercharger (free) than spend ~$20 for a 2 minute swap.
Second, immediately after demoing the battery swap rules, CARB changed the rules to exclude battery swaps.

 

[audreyh1]

It's not so simple. The batteries are so large that they are basically integrated into the vehicle. They become part of the structure.

Tesla demo'd a quick swap battery years ago, it didn't go anywhere, and I'm pretty sure none of the current models could support that, the batteries don't just bolt in/out, and it wouldn't be easy for that to happen.

Maybe someone who follows Tesla closer than I do could comment on the current state of this.

Maybe a standard small module that slides into a trunk, or would mount on a bike-rack type frame, or a small trailer? Something to get you 30 miles or so (~ 10kWh), to get you to a place to charge?

But you'd need those spaced pretty close together, I can't imagine enough demand to support all the inventory.

-ERD50

I don’t see it happening. Users don’t want some used battery they don’t know the history of. The charging times are just not so onerous as to require physical reconfiguration.

None of the current Teslas accommodate swapping.

 

[freedomatlast]

Even if it was feasible, I can't imagine many people would want to swap a fairly new battery from their fairly new vehicle with one that's been cycled continuously for a number of years.