Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[eytonxav]

I have (since Oct '22) the BMW IX xdrive50, a mid-size, although a large mid-size SUV. The only three on the road that advertised range >300 miles were the IX, Mercedes EQS and the Tesla X. We were unable to test drive the X as none of the local showrooms had them available and we would have had to rent one. So it was between the EQS and IX. We ordered both and whichever one came through first .

Love the IX. It has all the bells and whistles except for the upgraded sound system, leather seats and multi-function seats. MSRP was $83K and with our add-ons, it came to $93K. The car handles beautifully. I can now easily parallel park with 4 wheel steering . The advertised range is 324 miles, however, I get only about 275 in 'winter' driving in SF Bay Area. Mostly local with very little freeway driving. Lots of downhill/uphill to get anywhere. Will have to see what it does now that it's summer.

I wish I had the multi-function seats as I have some back issues and would have loved real lumbar support and massage instead of the itty bitty pillow I keep in the car. Others riding in the car have remarked how comfortable and roomy the car is, especially in the back seat with the front seats pushed all the way back. The IX handles beautifully. Coming from the Acura RDX, the handling and ride quality are 100% better. DH has a Lexus 350 sedan and his ride quality was better than the Acura's. The IX's ride quality is much better than the Lexus'.

While outside noise is to be expected, it is much less than both the Acura's and the Lexus' when they were new. I distinctly recall this as I complained and had both cars in for service because I did not like the noise level. The IX even offers iconic sounds, although both DH and I prefer the 'natural' sounds of a car.

Storage is fabulous. Much more roomy as well as larger trunk storage. There is no frunk. There is a small storage area under the trunk mat which allows for those small odds and ends like cables and such.

There are stalks for windshield wipers and turn signals. Everything else is through the display, although there are buttons for defrost, basic lights (on and auto and hazard). There are a few buttons on the steering wheel as well as on the console. The one I use all the time is the 360 camera on the console.

My one complaint is the software. As mentioned in another forum, Tesla is a software company that builds cars, all the other manufactures build cars with software as a side hustle. That explains it well. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesn't. The display is not that intuitive and takes some time to learn. I haven't even begun to understand and learn all it's capabilities. Not having experience with other cars, they have a great app which we use all the time. My favorite feature is 'where's my car'. It will walk you to the car if you forget where you parked it .

The other main downside is it's not a Tesla and we won't be taking it on road trips because of the frustrations with non-Tesla charging infrastructure. We are in the process of upgrading DH's 2017 Lexus to a current model because of all the bells and whistles in the new cars as well as having a road trip car. The two most important features being the 360 camera as well as carplay. He loves his Lexus but has decided to either get the equivalent BMW ICE sedan as the 2024 model will have the same infotainment system and features (I'm told, will have to wait and see). The other candidate is the Tesla Y long range. We are waiting for HW4 availability and will test drive on an overnighter at that time.

Hope this helps in your research.

Nice write-up. I rode in my neighbors I4-M50. It's a beautiful and a very nice driving car. The interior was quite luxurious and comfortable, but with my back I need something that sits higher off the ground for getting in and out. He has not mentioned any issues with the software and its capabilities, although he is a professor of electrical engineering, so his learning curve might be better than most. I was quite impressed with the hi-res display. Isn't there an adaptor you could get for charging on the road?

 

[ken830]

Consumer Reports just tested the range of 4 EVs. While it is no surprise that they all suffered range reduction in cold climate, some degraded more than others (down to 57% of EPA range).

On the other hand, some even exceeded their EPA range by a little when it was warm, despite the use of AC (80F and humid).

It would be interesting to see more EVs tested this way. It took CR a year to test in different weathers.

It turned out that the 4 tested EVs don't differ that much in their range in real life, despite their EPA advertised ranges. I like that, as it shows it's a competitive industry.

Reference for full text: https://www.consumerreports.org/car...e-affects-electric-vehicle-range-a4873569949/

I'm getting a bit tired of repeating this over and over. These types of comparisons are extremely limited in usefulness. They are usually used to highlight Tesla's range discrepancy. Tesla publishes their EPA range. Period. In the car, you will get live range estimates that take into account your driving style, traffic conditions, road conditions, weather conditions, etc.. It's extremely accurate with a chart that projects into the future and updated every few seconds. My car's lifetime efficiency is way above EPA efficiency because I drive a mixed-but-mostly-highway commute at reasonable 65-70MPH in moderate California climate.

Range is only one very narrow metric. This range chart alone isn't enough to tell you how quickly you can travel between two points (beyond the single-charge range) or how much it costs -- metrics that matter way more. Efficiency should always be published beside range test because it's every bit as, of not more, relevant. I believe the Mach-E, which most closely matches the Model Y in the chart in their 70-mph range test has a much larger battery so you can reasonably assume a much lower efficiency. Tesla doesn't publish battery capacity, so it's estimated. Mach-E is 91kWh (109kWh EPA) usable while the Model Y is ~80kWh (91kWh EPA). This chart really doesn't make that clear, but you will see that difference when you pay an extra 10-15% for the energy (and time) to charge it. And on top of that, a Mach-E costs more than the Model Y at vehicle purchase.

Manufacturers are required to publish their EPA 5-cycle range test results as-is or a lower number. some manufacturers apparently use a lower number for some reason (maybe they are not confident in their manufacturing consistency or want some wiggle room to adjust the battery or drivetrain in the future). If you are comparing range between vehicles in specific driving conditions, that's fine, but don't bring in the EPA number and claim that there is some discrepancy or foul-play or misleading advertising going on because driving conditions matter a lot.

A 70-MPH highway range test is not useful for your everyday city or mixed-use driving comparison of range. For manufacturers that are meticulous with extracting every bit of efficiency out of the drivetrain, this includes the bi-directional inverter efficiency. Re-gen efficiency is can make a huge difference in city and mixed-use driving range while making zero difference in highway range (no re-gen at all). If battery-to-wheel efficiency is about 80%, then battery-to-wheel-to-battery-to-wheel efficiency is only 51%. If efficiency is even 85%, that changes to 61%. 90%^3 = 72%. So you can see how slightly more efficient drivetrain (and inverter in particular) can drastically increase range of the low-variable-speed portion of the test while contributing no gains in a highway-only test.

For this test, they said, "the regenerative braking mode was set to its lowest setting for each car to level the playing field." but I fail to see how that levels the playing field or how it is relevant at all!? Also very not realistic for the average consumer. Really confusing there.

They also "intentionally didn’t drain the batteries until totally empty to reflect the typical owner experience. We don’t drive regular gasoline cars until they are bone dry, either." Fine, but that won't give you a very accurate or repeatable result for range because calibration can make a 10+% difference between tests, and they have no indication of what they did to ensure the vehicles are well-conditioned and calibrated. Even a single full-cycle charge and drain would be enough to ensure reasonably accurate battery meters. This is especially important because they used extrapolation to estimate full-battery range.

A 70-MPH highway range test is useful. But it is disingenuous to use it to claim one manufacturer is exaggerating range. There's a reason you don't see articles that run the EPA 5-cycle test procedure and then claim Tesla is way off, because you know what? They will find that they are dead-on. If you run the 5-cycle test on all the vehicles exactly as prescribed and adjusted by the EPA's official formulas, you will find discrepancies only if the manufacturer voluntarily lowered their published numbers. And if not, great! It'll be a huge scandal and huge news. Actual news.

And common sense will tell you that the EPA will not easily allow the largest manufacturer of EVs to falsify their range test numbers. It's true that most numbers are self-tested and submitted to the EPA for certification, but the EPA can and do audit and conduct their own verification tests. Even in the most corrupt scenario, it doesn't make sense to let Tesla get away with it because it's an easily-reproduced number by any organization or individual. They are a BIG target.

And if you want the official highway and city number broken out? It's right there on the window sticker and the government's fueleconomy.gov website. Here it is for the 2023 Model Y AWD and Mustang MachE: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46515&id=46212

You will see it's 127 MPGe City, 117 MPGe Highway, 122 MPGe combined, and total range is 330 miles for the Model Y. They also tell you EPA 1 gallon of gasoline is 33.7kWh. So, simple math will yield you EPA battery capacity and total range numbers for city or highway.

There, you will also find real-life consumer-submitted figures (you can submit your own) and you can personalize your estimated fuel costs by putting in your own highway/city driving split and fuel costs. It's all really very transparent.

 

[Chuckanut]

Has anybody checked out the Lucid Air? Fast charging and a 500 mile range.

Does anything else stand out for you?

 

[braumeister]

I'm getting a bit tired of repeating this over and over.

WADR, most of us are a bit tired of hearing it over and over.

 

[eytonxav]

Has anybody checked out the Lucid Air? Fast charging and a 500 mile range.

Does anything else stand out for you?

I saw one of them drive down my street and was a blown away at its futuristic looks, very low and wide footprint. Aside from that I have only seen one other on the local roads.

 

[TrvlBug]

Nice write-up. I rode in my neighbors I4-M50. It's a beautiful and a very nice driving car. The interior was quite luxurious and comfortable, but with my back I need something that sits higher off the ground for getting in and out. He has not mentioned any issues with the software and its capabilities, although he is a professor of electrical engineering, so his learning curve might be better than most. I was quite impressed with the hi-res display. Isn't there an adaptor you could get for charging on the road?

The IX sits quite high, higher than any SUV I've had.

The software in the IX is quite 'wonky'. They don't do a lot of OTA updates (or lots of any updates for that matter). Big irritation is that I can't permanently set the climate to internal recirculation only. Big Brother BMW insists on the default being outside circulation. While it does have a HEPA filter and is great with eliminating outside stink, it doesn't get all of it and It's annoying to have to go down 4 levels in the display to change to internal circulation only. The Tesla software is so intuitive compared to the IX...there really is no comparison. From what I've heard, thought, the IX software is better than most!!!

Charging on the road isn't any problem as such as I have a charger. The problem is the non-Tesla infrastructure sucks in that they are not well maintained. BMW provides 2 years of free charging through EA, however, the nearest stations are 10-15 miles away (I assume they are the fast chargers) and EA distributes the electricity as well as poor maintenance of their stations which is also a complaint with the other companies. The 2 Tesla stations that have been opened in our area to non-Teslas are 3 hours away . And when Tesla opens their stations to non-Teslas, they are only opening about 2/3rds of them. So for us, no road trips in the IX at this point in time. In a few years, probably yes. I do use the free public chargers, however, they are usually in use when I'm out and about.

 

[ken830]

WADR, most of us are a bit tired of hearing it over and over.

I hope to not have to repeat it again, but the damage it causes by misleading consumers new to EVs makes it extremely difficult for me to leave alone without providing appropriate context.

 

[braumeister]

I hope to not have to repeat it again, but the damage it causes by misleading consumers new to EVs makes it extremely difficult for me to leave alone without providing appropriate context.

This may come as a bit of a surprise, but the rest of us hope even more fervently that you won't repeat it again. The membership here is smarter than the average bear, and no one is relying on someone else's perspective. We can normally make up our own minds from the available evidence without being guided.

 

[NW-Bound]

A 70-MPH highway range test is not useful for your everyday city or mixed-use driving comparison of range. For manufacturers that are meticulous with extracting every bit of efficiency out of the drivetrain, this includes the bi-directional inverter efficiency. Re-gen efficiency is can make a huge difference in city and mixed-use driving range while making zero difference in highway range (no re-gen at all)...

OK, I understand your point, although I have not dug into the actual EPA test procedure.

Still, the CR test results show that if an EV buyer cares about range for interstate travel, he needs to look further than the EPA numbers, which are most meaningful for work commuting in the city as you described. For intown driving, people usually do not have range anxiety because they can get home to charge overnight. For long trips, they have to look outside the EPA numbers.

Another thing for consumers to learn in this new technology.

 

[ken830]

Has anybody checked out the Lucid Air? Fast charging and a 500 mile range.

Does anything else stand out for you?

Drivetrain efficiency and battery capacity are the standout positives for the Air. But price is not so great. And the range advantage over a Model S isn't really worth all the compromises. The biggest thing to consider is that the industry is moving to NACS which opens up the Tesla Supercharging network to most manufacturer vehicles.

"Problem" with Lucid is the 800V architecture. It means that Superchargers designed for 400V vehicles (all of them at the moment) can't charge the Lucid battery directly and the car needs to use the onboard boost converter (part of the Wunderbox) to boost the voltage to charge the battery. Currently, the boost converter is limited in it's current ability. I'll have to dig to find it what the technical limit is, but Luicd vehicles charge really slow on Tesla Superchargers. Maybe future Lucids will have higher powered boost converters, but I would not but one today if I plan on using it onany road trips.

 

[NW-Bound]

Consumer Reports just released reviews of 55 EVs. Assuming these are available in the US, I did not know there are so many models being offered. Amazing.

You need to be a member of CR to access the report. Of course CR cannot tell us about the reliability of new models. Only time will tell.

See: https://www.consumerreports.org/car...cles-from-consumer-reports-tests-a3759669425/

PS. I was wrong. These 55 models include hybrids.

 

[braumeister]

Consumer Reports just released reviews of 55 EVs. Assuming these are available in the US, I did not know there are so many models being offered. Amazing.

Surprisingly, their list does not include some models I've looked at. So maybe even more amazing.

 

[ken830]

OK, I understand your point, although I have not dug into the actual EPA test procedure.

Still, the CR test results show that if an EV buyer cares about range for interstate travel, he needs to look further than the EPA numbers, which are most meaningful for work commuting in the city as you described. For intown driving, people usually do not have range anxiety because they can get home to charge overnight. For long trips, they have to look outside the EPA numbers.

Another thing for consumers to learn in this new technology.

Absolutely agree. For consumers where long trips in inclement weather matter most, then that chart would be more useful if you strip out the EPA numbers (what purpose does that serve except to unfairly imply that Tesla is misleading or exaggerating) and put in the efficiency number as well as purchase price of vehicle (or $/range). In that case, the Model Y and Ioniq 5 will stand out. For a prospective buyer, if these particular driving scenarios are the most important metric, then the Model Y is the car to buy if you qualify for tax credits and rebates and the Ioniq 5 is the car to buy if you don't qualify for tax credits and rebates and the lower range is acceptable.

To be fair, this article isn't bad at all. Just don't use it to conclude anything about EPA range claims.

 

[NW-Bound]

Good that we agree on something.

Now, perhaps the EPA numbers should be expanded to stay relevant.

I have not looked at the sticker of any EV. For ICE cars, they use to show city and highway MPG, which directly translate into driving ranges if you know how many gallons are in the gas tank.

If they do not show the kWh capacity of an EV battery, nor the kWh/mile then how do people know, other than relying on outside tests as done by CR?

 

[Route246]

Any concerns about solid state battery technology, (perhaps long overdue but extremely disruptive in terms of battery anxiety when it does arrive), will have rendering lithium-based cars into the class of 4-generation-old smart phones? If double-range becomes the new norm (in the 2025-2028 model year timeframe) what happens to existing half-range vehicles which nobody wants anymore?

It is the key reason why I have suspended new EV shopping at this point. Some of my well-heeled friends know what 300-miles really means and would never consider buying into current EV technology.

 

[aja8888]

Any concerns about solid state battery technology, (perhaps long overdue but extremely disruptive in terms of battery anxiety when it does arrive), will have rendering lithium-based cars into the class of 4-generation-old smart phones? If double-range becomes the new norm (in the 2025-2028 model year timeframe) what happens to existing half-range vehicles which nobody wants anymore?

It is the key reason why I have suspended new EV shopping at this point. Some of my well-heeled friends know what 300-miles really means and would never consider buying into current EV technology.

It's pretty hard to sell used EV's right now as it is. If the tech goes like you mention, the junk yards will be full of them, unless they won't take them with the batteries still intact.

 

[NW-Bound]

Hmmm.... Some complications here with these new-fangled solid-state batteries. They also use lithium, the major ingredient, but how about the more expensive metals like cobalt and nickel? Just as they are gearing up to recycle spent EV batteries, they are going to do it in a new way.

I dunno. I like it better when things changed more slowly. Vacuum-tube TVs and CRTS did not change much for a few decades. Everybody knew how to service them. Life was simpler.

These solid-state batteries may not be here for a while anyway. And when that happens, perhaps somebody will build replacement batteries to rejuvenate the obsolete cars. Repaint them. Re-upholster them. Update the firmware. Life will be good.

 

[DallasGuy]

Any concerns about solid state battery technology, (perhaps long overdue but extremely disruptive in terms of battery anxiety when it does arrive), will have rendering lithium-based cars into the class of 4-generation-old smart phones? If double-range becomes the new norm (in the 2025-2028 model year timeframe) what happens to existing half-range vehicles which nobody wants anymore?

It is the key reason why I have suspended new EV shopping at this point. Some of my well-heeled friends know what 300-miles really means and would never consider buying into current EV technology.

Current battery vehicles have many useful years ahead....they don't instantly become scrap when a new technology comes along. I keep a vehicle for 15-20 years and the current battery technology will work just fine for me during that time. New technology is always coming along, yet the older technology, especially in vehicles still have many years of good use left in them. The other thing is that the likelihood of cheap solid state batteries in year one when it's available is pretty low. New technology like that is usually rolled out in the higher price range. So don't expect widespread use of solid state batteries within a year or two.

 

[joesxm3]

I might trade my Y in if the newer model had better FSD. But I don't go far from home and my longest trip only uses 30% of my battery there and back.

I suppose I don't drive enough to justify the cost and my 20 year old Acura could limp along, but I worried about getting stuck when a part failed.

The Y and the monthly FSD charge go into the BTD category. At my age I gotta get my kicks somehow and it is cheaper than hookers and blow.

 

[aja8888]

Current battery vehicles have many useful years ahead....they don't instantly become scrap when a new technology comes along. I keep a vehicle for 15-20 years and the current battery technology will work just fine for me during that time. New technology is always coming along, yet the older technology, especially in vehicles still have many years of good use left in them. The other thing is that the likelihood of cheap solid state batteries in year one when it's available is pretty low. New technology like that is usually rolled out in the higher price range. So don't expect widespread use of solid state batteries within a year or two.

has anyone actually produced and used a "solid state" battery yet in a vehicle? I read tech articles and it's always coming soon, but that's been several years now, and I have not read about one that has actually been commercialized..

 

[eytonxav]

Any concerns about solid state battery technology, (perhaps long overdue but extremely disruptive in terms of battery anxiety when it does arrive), will have rendering lithium-based cars into the class of 4-generation-old smart phones? If double-range becomes the new norm (in the 2025-2028 model year timeframe) what happens to existing half-range vehicles which nobody wants anymore?

It is the key reason why I have suspended new EV shopping at this point. Some of my well-heeled friends know what 300-miles really means and would never consider buying into current EV technology.

I saw an article recently (can't remember where) that indicated Toyota is developing or at least investigating solid state batteries. Indicated that range between charges could approach 900 miles. That sounds pretty appealing for those with range anxiety.

Edit: Here is the article -https://electrek.co/2023/06/13/toyota-claims-solid-state-ev-battery-tech-breakthrough/

 

[NW-Bound]

Solid-state batteries are said to have 3x the energy density of today's lithium cells. I would expect to see them in high-end smartphones and laptops first.

An expert said a more realistic time frame for solid-state batteries in EV is 2032-2035.

Until then, keep reading CR reviews to buy your EV.

 

[JoeWras]

I thought this thread was about models? Now we have more pontificating. Sorry if EPA numbers don't suit you. We have to start somewhere.

And people wonder why those of us on the cusp of buying an EV instead draw back. It seems like the EV community is a bit too ... Uh ... "Crazy Passionate" sometimes. I don't want to be involved if that's where it always goes .

 

[NW-Bound]

Eh, that's part of life. Some people already cancel their purchase to wait for new hardware update on current models. No different than waiting to buy stocks in a market correction.

And then, there are also people like my niece. She said she wanted to wait a while. Then, her ICE car overheated in this horrible summer (probably due to neglect) and failed permanently, leaving her stranded in the summer heat with her 2-year old child.

So, no choice for her but to get a new car. And rightly or wrongly, she and her husband decided on an EV because they believed it required lower maintenance, which appealed to them. They would know what worked for them.

They asked me if I wanted to go on test drives with them. No, I did not get involved, not caring about any car, ICE or EV. They are both professional workers, and can do their own research. I was curious about the state of the art of the battery technology, that's all.

 

[Jackietime]

We bought a 2023 Nissan Ariya in Feb 2023, It's white with a black top. We had waited 7 months for the car. Nissan gifted its patient customers a Meta headset during the wait! It was worth the wait and we love it. It gets about 300 miles at 80% charge. We also own a Nissan Pathfinder for long trips.