Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[aja8888]

Sadly, I think GM is in big trouble

Nothing new here. GM, Ford, Stellantis have been in trouble for decades. GM even swallowed the BK pill and got bailed out by the government. These companies employ hundreds of thousands of people and add in the suppliers, it's quite a large number.

It would be a shame if they went out of business for good and the Chinese and others took control of one of our largest industries.

I wish them success, whatever it looks like going forward.

 

[Alan]

OK, let's not Porky this thread....

+1

Mod note - please keep politics out of this thread.

 

[ncbill]

Yeah, people keep telling us that but we have already been on several 3000+ mile road trips in our EV.

So clearly we do have the range and the infrastructure.

If you are driving a Tesla.

Currently that is the only reliable Level 3 charging network.

Still trying to find it in my youtube history but there's one guy who drove the same route in a Tesla then in a non-Tesla EV.

With Tesla he only found one de-rated charger...130kW instead of 150kW.

With the non-Tesla EV he often found chargers de-rated to 30kW...IIRC, one only at 5kW!

And noted when he had done the same test several months prior the non-Tesla Level 3 chargers were in much better operating condition.

Long-distance EV travelers simply can't count on anything but Superchargers being in-service.

 

[Fermion]

So, a cross country road trip in the USA is about 7000 miles round trip.

If you manage to get 80% charge from a supercharger every time, in about 30 minutes, then that is 7000/200 = 35 stops for charging. I used 200 mile range as a guess for about how far charging 10% to 90% would get you, but maybe 80% charge gets you a bit more than 200 miles.

That is 17+ hours of charging.

Compare that to a typical gas station stop of 10 minutes every 400 miles for a car with a 17 gallon tank getting 25mpg and that is 3 hours of fueling.

It is a difference. Still viable if you can always get a supercharger and don't have to wait long for availability.

 

[Midpack]

So, a cross country road trip in the USA is about 7000 miles round trip.

If you manage to get 80% charge from a supercharger every time, in about 30 minutes, then that is 7000/200 = 35 stops for charging. I used 200 mile range as a guess for about how far charging 10% to 90% would get you, but maybe 80% charge gets you a bit more than 200 miles.

That is 17+ hours of charging.

Compare that to a typical gas station stop of 10 minutes every 400 miles for a car with a 17 gallon tank getting 25mpg and that is 3 hours of fueling.

It is a difference. Still viable if you can always get a supercharger and don't have to wait long for availability.

EV charging does add time to a trip - no question. But that may be stretching the numbers, worst case for the EV and best case for the ICE. An ICE will probably make other stops and not everyone can drive 7 hours without stopping.

A drive home in our hybrid takes 12 hours, 11 hours driving, and 1 hour for gas, food, restrooms - we've done the trip many times. In a Tesla it takes 12.5 hours, 11 hours driving and 1.5 hours charging (10, 20, 20,40 min). We take care of food, restrooms and anything else while charging. Fortunately most Tesla chargers are near food & restrooms.

 

[RetMD21]

So, a cross country road trip in the USA is about 7000 miles round trip.

If you manage to get 80% charge from a supercharger every time, in about 30 minutes, then that is 7000/200 = 35 stops for charging. I used 200 mile range as a guess for about how far charging 10% to 90% would get you, but maybe 80% charge gets you a bit more than 200 miles.

That is 17+ hours of charging.

Compare that to a typical gas station stop of 10 minutes every 400 miles for a car with a 17 gallon tank getting 25mpg and that is 3 hours of fueling.

It is a difference. Still viable if you can always get a supercharger and don't have to wait long for availability.

If you constantly drive across the country you would save time with ICE. By your math am I saving any time charging at home and never going to a gas station?

 

[ERD50]

So, a cross country road trip in the USA is about 7000 miles round trip.

If you manage to get 80% charge from a supercharger every time, in about 30 minutes, then that is 7000/200 = 35 stops for charging. I used 200 mile range as a guess for about how far charging 10% to 90% would get you, but maybe 80% charge gets you a bit more than 200 miles.

That is 17+ hours of charging.

Compare that to a typical gas station stop of 10 minutes every 400 miles for a car with a 17 gallon tank getting 25mpg and that is 3 hours of fueling.

It is a difference. Still viable if you can always get a supercharger and don't have to wait long for availability.

As Midpack mentioned, some of that time is 'buried' by stops you'd take anyway. So it depends.

I mentioned a while back, a friend of mine likes his Tesla (I'm trying to keep this MODEL SPECIFIC ), has two of them (one for his DW), drove from Chicago area to Phoenix area in his Tesla. He's a planner, he knew exactly what to expect. In the end, he said it was "OK - not too bad", but if he does it again, he said he's taking an ICE.

If you constantly drive across the country you would save time with ICE. By your math am I saving any time charging at home and never going to a gas station?

Sure, but those routine fill-ups are generally done when convenient (though not as convenient as charging at home for most). That's way different from being forced to stop for 30+ minutes, and maybe go out of your way a bit, when you have a destination in mind.

Just not apples-apples.

-ERD50

 

[Out of Steam]

Yeah, people keep telling us that but we have already been on several 3000+ mile road trips in our EV.

So clearly we do have the range and the infrastructure.

I'm guessing that you have a Tesla. I've been tracking a trip from Richmond, VA to Louisville, KY in a Ford Mustang Mach-E or VW ID.4 since late 2021. At the beginning of that period, the trip was possible only by driving into Southwestern VA, then driving north into West Virginia on local roads, not exceeding 50 mph.

Last time I checked, in late fall, the trip was dependent on the operation of a single fast charging location in Charleston, WV. If it didn't work, it was time to call for a flatbed. Traveling through Western Maryland and Morgantown, WV was more robust, but added substantial miles.

 

[Midpack]

I'm guessing that you have a Tesla. I've been tracking a trip from Richmond, VA to Louisville, KY in a Ford Mustang Mach-E or VW ID.4 since late 2021. At the beginning of that period, the trip was possible only by driving into Southwestern VA, then driving north into West Virginia on local roads, not exceeding 50 mph.

Last time I checked, in late fall, the trip was dependent on the operation of a single fast charging location in Charleston, WV. If it didn't work, it was time to call for a flatbed. Traveling through Western Maryland and Morgantown, WV was more robust, but added substantial miles.

As you may know, the Tesla charging network is substantially more reliable and available than the others, Electrify America gets the worst customer satisfaction ratings (post #1041). Hopefully all public EV charging networks expand and improve, I expect they will (fingers crossed).

 

[joesxm3]

I have two ICE cars and one model Y. The two ICE cars sit outside in the cold. I don't drive them much. One of them has had to be jumped twice so far. I have had to take them out for a 20min drive every two or three days to make sure the battery does not die.

I find it aggravating to have to go to the gas station especially in the raw and cold weather.

I just had an Acura 2024 Integra as a loaner. It was nicer than expected but it did not accelerate as well as the Tesla. It had newer electronics but the Tesla is far ahead. I really missed the 3d overhead view park assist feature and the side and back measurements backing out my long driveway.

I was not that familiar with the Acura but I was not able to figure out how to turn on self driving.


That said, in this cold weather I have been driving my ICE cars more than the Tesla. Wasting gas to charge the battery and to avoid getting my beloved Tesla dirty.

 

[RetMD21]

Sure, but those routine fill-ups are generally done when convenient (though not as convenient as charging at home for most). That's way different from being forced to stop for 30+ minutes, and maybe go out of your way a bit, when you have a destination in mind.

Just not apples-apples.

-ERD50

Yeah I've been told before that extra time spent charging counts but time saved doesn't.

 

[Midpack]

Yeah I've been told before that extra time spent charging counts but time saved doesn't.

 

[Midpack]

So I have finished my Federal and state taxes using TurboTax. Form 8911 updated today, but everything else is now done and ready to file - except Form 8936 (EV tax credit). Could be held up by the IRS, or Intuit, who knows. They are projecting 2/21 to have it released, though I am almost certain the completed Form 8936 they show today is correct. I like to file early, but I guess I may have to wait another 3 weeks...

 

[Out of Steam]

As you may know, the Tesla charging network is substantially more reliable and available than the others, Electrify America gets the worst customer satisfaction ratings (post #1041). Hopefully all public EV charging networks expand and improve, I expect they will (fingers crossed).

True about the reliability of Tesla vs. other charging providers. I ran my sample trip again, in a Volkswagen ID.4, and it would be several hours slower (13 hours, 5 minutes), including a charge to 95% and a significant detour to a charger.

Driving this sort of unfavorable route is a very realistic scenario for me right now. Since I wouldn't drive a Tesla for reasons related to vehicle controls and automated driving, among others, I suspect that I will age out of long-distance driving before an EV will be suitable as my main vehicle.

 

[Out of Steam]

I've also heard that car dealership locations shouldn't be considered reliable places to fast-charge, because if they need a parking place for a broken Suburban, they won't hesitate to use the parking space for the charger.

 

[Car-Guy]

I saw a lot of Tesla's on my recent trip out West recently. The further West I went, the more Tesla's it seems that I'd see. I really noticed the charging stations "out West" were often full. (Never so around here) Of course I don't know how many cars were still charging or just blocking the spaces waiting for the owners return.

 

[Fermion]

I am definitely not anti EV, heck, we dumped the diesel in our 34 foot sailboat and went full electric inboard. I do have some range anxiety now there and it has made me more cautious when choosing a wheeled electric vehicle. At least with the sailboat I always have the chance at wind.

I thought the Ford Lightning was going to be the truck for me, since the battery can be used as a source of power for extended camping, but it just cannot tow anything very far. I don't have confidence it could pull our 17 foot lead keel sailboat more than 100 miles per charge (about 3000 pounds on trailer). Our 2.7L turbo F150 4x4, which gets 22mpg solo and has a 20 gallon tank gets about 12mpg pulling the sailboat, which is still good for 200+ mile range.

The 7000 mile road trip we have planned from Washington to Florida, launching in several states along the way, will probably use 600 gallons of gas at the current price of $3.25 average per gallon, or $1950 in gas (probably will use the Costco card for gas and get $75 of that back).

The same trip in a EV truck looks like it would be absolute misery.

 

[Midpack]

I thought the Ford Lightning was going to be the truck for me, since the battery can be used as a source of power for extended camping, but it just cannot tow anything very far. I don't have confidence it could pull our 17 foot lead keel sailboat more than 100 miles per charge (about 3000 pounds on trailer). Our 2.7L turbo F150 4x4, which gets 22mpg solo and has a 20 gallon tank gets about 12mpg pulling the sailboat, which is still good for 200+ mile range.

Definitely a challenge for EV's. An owner did a YT video where he towed 11,000 pounds (spec max) in cold weather with a Cybertruck. Obviously that's an extreme case, but he got 90 miles, versus the (known to be best case) published range of 320 miles.

Though it's not much of an issue where I live (now), I have learned extreme cold is a bigger EV range killer than I realized this year (as much as 40% loss at 0F), along with towing. It wouldn't surprise me if large industrial work vehicles never make good sense as electrics, I assume the Tesla semi may tell us more about that..

 

[audreyh1]

True about the reliability of Tesla vs. other charging providers. I ran my sample trip again, in a Volkswagen ID.4, and it would be several hours slower (13 hours, 5 minutes), including a charge to 95% and a significant detour to a charger.

Driving this sort of unfavorable route is a very realistic scenario for me right now. Since I wouldn't drive a Tesla for reasons related to vehicle controls and automated driving, among others, I suspect that I will age out of long-distance driving before an EV will be suitable as my main vehicle.

If you are serious about long distance travel via EV then you probably have to go with Tesla.

Other EV models are fine for commuting from home and day trips that don’t exceed the range. A lot of people buy EVs primarily for that exact purpose.

I find controlling the Tesla to be very straightforward and I choose what if anything gets automated.

 

[REWahoo]

You Bolt owners might find this snip from a Facebook Bolt owners group interesting:

I had a semi truck decide to try to cross in front of me on a highway. I was doing 55 to 60 mph when I hit my brakes. I hit mid trailer. Walked away from this with minor injuries.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

You Bolt owners might find this snip from a Facebook Bolt owners group interesting:

Wow that is a crazy scary picture. I was probably doing about 35 to 45 MPH when the truck coming the opposite way turned left in front of me totaling my Bolt EUV. Walked away from it with minor soreness and bruising from the airbags going off. I Googled the VIN and found it listed for auction sale via Copart. Huge yard of totaled vehicles.

https://ucars.pro/lot/138985197-2023-chevrolet-bolt-euv-lt-1g1fy6s06p4109321 Pictures here.

We liked it so much after shopping around for an alternative vehicle we replaced it with another EUV......just a different color this time.

 

[aja8888]

Pictures of dead Bolts! I love mine, and so does my daughter who will own it next.

 

[Midpack]

While the media reports sound troublesome, another nothingburger Tesla “recall.” A simple over the air software update from image on left, to image on right, because the font is too small - while most of the icons don’t have any letters. If Tesla did this update without telling anyone, how many people would even notice?

 

[joesxm3]

Regarding the park icon. I have forgotten to put it in park several times.

The Tesla realizes this and puts itself into park on its own.


Plus I just remembered that when you go into park or drive the entire three inch car image rotates to indicate park and drive.

 

[ERD50]

While the media reports sound troublesome, another nothingburger Tesla “recall.” A simple over the air software update from image on left, to image on right, because the font is too small - while most of the icons don’t have any letters. If Tesla did this update without telling anyone, how many people would even notice?

Hopefully, this motivates/shames legacy car makers to allow software updates more easily. They could save big $.

Even w/o OTA, if they provided the option of allowing the owner to do a "download a file from our sight, copy to USB stick, plug in USB stick to car, and do some 'magic sequence' to start the update, a lot of owners would do that.

Others could drop into the dealer and have it done in 5 minutes in the parking lot. Or maybe the chain auto parts stores would do it free to drive business?

Anything is better than "make an appointment, drop the car off, and we will use our proprietary software to update your car".

-ERD50