Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[audreyh1]

Regarding the park icon. I have forgotten to put it in park several times.

The Tesla realizes this and puts itself into park on its own.


Plus I just remembered that when you go into park or drive the entire three inch car image rotates to indicate park and drive.

Right, seatbelt unbuckled, Tesla goes into park.

 

[RetMD21]

Right, seatbelt unbuckled, Tesla goes into park.

That's cool. I have probably forgotten to do it manually but it has always worked out.

 

[audreyh1]

That's cool. I have probably forgotten to do it manually but it has always worked out.

Yeah, I hadn’t actually tried that. DH reminds me. I automatically hit the P button.

 

[Hamlet]

I have driven EVs (rentals) several times, and generally like them. I own a PHEV myself.

But I'm one of those oddballs who suffer from range anxiety, so I'm not ready to go full BEV yet.

A year or two ago, I tried looking at what the charging situation would be for a couple of road trips I've taken in recent years, and found that it was considered impossible due to lack of chargers. That was using both the Tesla router and the better route planner that is highly regarded. So my idea of a nice road trip doesn't quit match up with the current state of charger availability. I'm sure it will work itself out soon, but not quite yet.

Yeah, I just bought a used 2021 Kia Niro EX PHEV to replace my 2008 Kia Rondo.

I’m generally not interested in being an early adopter of new technologies, so PHEV is a great baby step for me. I’m not a big fan of change, so I bought a car that is essentially the same car I had with 13 years of upgrades.

It claims 26 miles of all-electric range. In practice, it generally isn’t “all electric”. It uses the gas engine to help the acceleration most of the time, unless you are very slowly accelerating. The climate control heat is always provided by the gas engine.

On the plus side, I think the practical effect is going to be very high gas mileage with no additional effort on my part beyond plugging it in, which was mainly what I was looking for.

PHEVs seem like an underserved area of the car market. For people that are weighted towards shorter trips, it probably gets you 75% of the way to all electric without any of the range/charging concerns of all-electric.

Hopefully, I’ll be up for getting an all-electric in 2037.

 

[Midpack]

There's no question sales of BEV, HEV, PHEVs are growing at the expense of ICE vehicles even in the USA - more so in many other developed countries. ICE market share is down at least 10% since 2014. The trend suggests ICE market share will fall further in 2024.

Combined sales of hybrid vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, and battery electric vehicles (BEV) in the United States rose to 16.3%*** of total new light-duty vehicle (LDV) sales in 2023, according to data from Wards Intelligence. In 2022, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and BEV sales were 12.9% of total sales, and 9.0% in 2021.

***U.S. sales of hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and BEVs reached their highest share of total LDV sales in the second half of 2023 at 17.9%.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/0...6-of-total-2023-u-s-light-duty-vehicle-sales/

 

[mathjak107]

i recently bought a hybrid lexus rx500h .

i didn’t want a plug in so this is self charging.

gas milage wasn’t a priority..i wanted performance and luxury ..

l looked at the bmw x5 and the porsche macan .

i decided on the lexus .

for 80k it offered so much more

 

[RetMD21]

There's no question sales of BEV, HEV, PHEVs are growing at the expense of ICE vehicles even in the USA - more so in many other developed countries. ICE market share is down at least 10% since 2014. The trend suggests ICE market share will fall further in 2024.

Ramping up CAFE requirements through 2026 has put automakers like GM in a bind. Toyota has hybrid versions of most models and eliminated the non hybrid versions of others like the Sienna. GM won't be able to comply and will face fines. Ford and Toyota can just switch to more hybrids and probably stay in compliance.

 

[explanade]

Ford reported their last quarterly earning today.

They beat expectations and are forecasting a strong 2024.

For Q4 2023, they reported a lost of $1.57 billion for their EV operations and $4.7 billion for all of 2023. Some of this was expected, as the ramp up costs of the transition involved commitment of tens of billions in capital.

They cite high margins for their Blue Cruise, limited automated driving system and for hybrids.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/06/ford-f-q4-2023-earnings.html

So it seems like they're commanding a price premium on hybrids, drafting on the higher prices of EVs, with buyers not wanting to go full EV paying for higher-margin hybrids.

Dealers probably love it because hybrids still require all the maintenance and service of ICE but also higher sales price up front.

Maybe some dealers charge higher prices for "special" hybrid service.

 

[RetMD21]

Ford reported their last quarterly earning today.

They beat expectations and are forecasting a strong 2024.

For Q4 2023, they reported a lost of $1.57 billion for their EV operations and $4.7 billion for all of 2023. Some of this was expected, as the ramp up costs of the transition involved commitment of tens of billions in capital.

They cite high margins for their Blue Cruise, limited automated driving system and for hybrids.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/06/ford-f-q4-2023-earnings.html

So it seems like they're commanding a price premium on hybrids, drafting on the higher prices of EVs, with buyers not wanting to go full EV paying for higher-margin hybrids.

Dealers probably love it because hybrids still require all the maintenance and service of ICE but also higher sales price up front.

Maybe some dealers charge higher prices for "special" hybrid service.

Ford has made some good moves like cutting Lightning production by 50%. Their Escape hybrid and PHEV are hard to find in my area. Hybrid options are available on more trim levels of the F150.

 

[Chuckanut]

Ramping up CAFE requirements through 2026 has put automakers like GM in a bind. Toyota has hybrid versions of most models and eliminated the non hybrid versions of others like the Sienna. GM won't be able to comply and will face fines. Ford and Toyota can just switch to more hybrids and probably stay in compliance.

The Car Dealership Guy did an interview last week with a representative of the nation’s largest Toyota dealer. In it the rep said that 75% of Toyota customers are now seeking a hybrid.

https://youtu.be/dpmOXBUlcGA?si=qgkhLRzKzDc3ldaE

I believe this is mentioned at about 42 minutes in the above interview.

 

[RetMD21]

The Taycan Turbo S for 2025 will have up to 938 hp and a 2.3 second 0-60 https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46648495/2025-porsche-taycan-revealed/

 

[Fermion]

The Taycan Turbo S for 2025 will have up to 938 hp and a 2.3 second 0-60 https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46648495/2025-porsche-taycan-revealed/

Dang. Granny better get out of that crosswalk when the timer reaches zero!

 

[Slater]

Have a fishing buddy Zane that frequents Tesla Giga Semi Facility......

 

[Midpack]

The Car Dealership Guy did an interview last week with a representative of the nation’s largest Toyota dealer. In it the rep said that 75% of Toyota customers are now seeking a hybrid.

https://youtu.be/dpmOXBUlcGA?si=qgkhLRzKzDc3ldaE

I believe this is mentioned at about 42 minutes in the above interview.

A logical step towards an EV for many, some people aren’t ready for any NEV but more so every year. Hybrids require no adjustment whatsoever coming from an ICE vehicle. We had 4 hybrids before buying an EV. Owning an EV is a much bigger change, but it was a no brainer for us owning a hybrid and an EV, with home charging there’s no downside.

 

[RetMD21]

The Car Dealership Guy did an interview last week with a representative of the nation’s largest Toyota dealer. In it the rep said that 75% of Toyota customers are now seeking a hybrid.

https://youtu.be/dpmOXBUlcGA?si=qgkhLRzKzDc3ldaE

I believe this is mentioned at about 42 minutes in the above interview.

Interesting that they have never had a Sienna hybrid in stock. All of their allocation goes to pre-orders.

 

[RetMD21]

IDK if adding hybrids will save GM but Jalopnik reviewed their previous efforts https://jalopnik.com/these-are-gms-previous-attempts-at-selling-hybrids-1851224293

 

[anothercog]

I'll be in market for a car later this year. If I qualified for EV subsidies I would leaning more heavily towards and EV. Hopefully prices continue to drop. There are starting to be some compelling deals on used EVs under $30k which is about as much as I'm willing to spend on a car.

I would be interested in a hybrid but I wouldn't pay too much of a premium for one as I don't drive enough.

 

[yakers]

Very good deals on Bolts that were repurchased by GM, sold with new battery so long life expectancy.

 

[DallasGuy]

Very good deals on Bolts that were repurchased by GM, sold with new battery so long life expectancy.

Yes...last December, a friend of mine bought a 2020 Bolt EV LT with replaced battery and only 12k miles that originally retailed for about $39k for about $15k....and he got the $4k tax credit on top of that. Heck of a deal!

 

[stephenson]

Much of the discussion has been of long distance driving ... going to my #3, I contend, again, this is about those vehicles/users who drive locally ... most, right? This summary says 69% in urban areas (https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/mobility/personal-transportation-factsheet) ... guessing maybe 5-10% is in excess of 300 mile trips? What are your metrics? Mine would be a long trip (in excess of 400 miles) maybe 2-3 times per year?

So, an overwhelming percentage (even considering the number charging at work, or shopping, etc) will be charging at home ... add in ability to use the EVs as backup house power (instead of home generators), or even to balance out usage with solar panel systems? Sound like a reasonably positive interrelationship.

Then, going to 1 and 2 ... and the timeline for everything ... my personal impression is EV support is changing far faster than most recognize ... just think how long it took for fuel stations to pop up everywhere ... and, range is improving, slowly, perhaps, but it is.

"1. Range has improved significantly in the last five years
2. The number of chargers has improved significantly in the last five years
3. EVs are, in spite of 1 and 2, above, still more often used for shorter haul stuff.
4. If a family has two cars - one of them is likely to be more aligned with the longer haul need - perhaps a hybrid.
5. If a family has one car, and they like to long distance road travel, they will likely have a hybrid.
6. Each of the above has a series of curves that fit into various models
7. It's government's job to assess and motivate for the common good"

 

[Fermion]

Do you think a hybrid truck is reasonable for the use case that is 60% local travel (less than 30 miles a day), 20% long distance (300 miles+ a day) and 20% hauling/towing?

When we are not using our Ford F150 4x4 2.7L turbo for the longer trips or towing our boat, I notice that we still use up quite a bit of fuel just driving here and there, hardware store, checking on our mountain property which is a 16 mile round trip, other small trips like that.

I'd be up for the idea of a hybrid, but worried that I would have the double maintenance of a ICE engine AND a biggish battery pack.

edit: I am thinking more of a plug in hybrid type truck. Something with 40 to 50 miles of pure electric range. Does that exist yet?

 

[Alan]

Much of the discussion has been of long distance driving ... going to my #3, I contend, again, this is about those vehicles/users who drive locally ... most, right? This summary says 69% in urban areas (https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/mobility/personal-transportation-factsheet) ... guessing maybe 5-10% is in excess of 300 mile trips? What are your metrics? Mine would be a long trip (in excess of 400 miles) maybe 2-3 times per year?

So, an overwhelming percentage (even considering the number charging at work, or shopping, etc) will be charging at home ... add in ability to use the EVs as backup house power (instead of home generators), or even to balance out usage with solar panel systems? Sound like a reasonably positive interrelationship.

Then, going to 1 and 2 ... and the timeline for everything ... my personal impression is EV support is changing far faster than most recognize ... just think how long it took for fuel stations to pop up everywhere ... and, range is improving, slowly, perhaps, but it is.

"1. Range has improved significantly in the last five years
2. The number of chargers has improved significantly in the last five years
3. EVs are, in spite of 1 and 2, above, still more often used for shorter haul stuff.
4. If a family has two cars - one of them is likely to be more aligned with the longer haul need - perhaps a hybrid.
5. If a family has one car, and they like to long distance road travel, they will likely have a hybrid.
6. Each of the above has a series of curves that fit into various models
7. It's government's job to assess and motivate for the common good"

Last year, 2023, we did 5 long trips where we needed to use public chargers, the vast majority of the time we charge at home. But, we live in northern England where most of our pleasure trips are within a 75 mile radius. (Coast to coast here is only 120 miles.)

Public chargers, particularly here up north, are still a bit scarce once you get off the main highways so planning is needed but they do seem to be installing them quite quickly now.

 

[freedomatlast]

i recently bought a hybrid lexus rx500h .

gas milage wasn’t a priority..i wanted performance and luxury ..

l looked at the bmw x5 and the porsche macan .

i decided on the lexus .

for 80k it offered so much more

0-60 time close to 6 seconds and 1/4 mile times over 14 seconds on the rx500H is hardly considered "performance" territory. Maybe 25 or 30 years ago, but not now.

Not even in the same ballpark or a serious competitor to the X5 and Macan in performance.

And what's more, the X5 is now top rated by Consumer Reports in reliability over Lexus. Never thought I'd see the day that happened.

 

[stephenson]

Hmmm .... the entire EV transition has shown how incredibly fast EVs are relative to almost all ICE cars.

Here's a very entertaining (well, to me, at least) fellow's YouTube channel where he drag races his stock Plaid (I think he did this for a couple years, then bought a new one) against all sorts of cars - he wins most, but will occasionally lose to something - most interesting is the recent run and loss against a Lucid Sapphire, another EV. The Lucid is about 3X the price of the Tesla - nicer car, but not that much nicer.

https://www.youtube.com/c/teslaplaidchannel

 

[Midpack]

I'd be up for the idea of a hybrid, but worried that I would have the double maintenance of a ICE engine AND a biggish battery pack.

We've owned 4 hybrid cars, 3 different brands, going back to 2007, and had ZERO issues with any of them, considerable miles on some. There was no additional maintenance versus an ICE, and brakes last at least 3 times as long because of regen. Our Camry Hybrid had the original brakes when we sold it after 118K miles, Toyota service inspected them at 100K miles and said they don't need to be replaced yet (you would think service departments would be pushing service...).

The battery for a std hybrid is not that big, probably a little larger for a PHEV, but nowhere near as large as a BEV - IOW if a battery was in the original design brief, it should not take up much room.

There is no different mileage use case for an ICE, HEV or PHEV - like there is for BEV where range, typical trip distances and charging can be barriers for some.

2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid, sold 2018 w 188K miles, zero maintenance issues.
2012 Toyota Prius
2019 Honda Accord Hybrid (still owned)
2022 Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid