Telly
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,395
Okay, warning here, can be brutal, no beating around the bush! Nicety is not needed, can be a blinder.
In my career, I interviewed and hired many people, all professional people. From seniors in Universities nearing graduation, to people with a couple years experience, to experienced folks. I also participated, to a lesser extent, in helping hire people for areas that I did not have responsibility for.
My take from what information has been presented:
1) The applicant has chosen a field of study and occupational area that has a surplus of applicants.
2) Five years not in the position of really using the degree, equals staleness. I expect that most resume reviewers would pick someone with little to no time not in the field, especially starting out!
3) Good chance the applicant does not interview well.
FWIW, here are some interviewing and hiring considerations that I think are pretty common among professional positions:
A) Track record. For people who are graduating, have they even held a job before that they had to show up for work on time, get along with other people, and work for a boss?
For applicants after graduation, like a year or more later, what have they done in the time since graduating? If they have not been gainfully employed in their major, what and why? This is a major test!
B) Interviewing. Look at it from the interviewer's perspective - A Personnel Manager (many many years ago!) gave me a critical piece of advice: "Telly, don't hire a problem. If you think you need a problem, then develop one internally, if you're not doing that already
" But he was serious. An interview, even among multiple interviewers when the applicant is in, is the only look we get. If we have any doubts, it's best to pass.
C) Advanced degree? Then advanced capabilities are expected. Not just a school promise of it because of the degree's letters. What can you do for us above and beyond a person with a Bachelors degree? Applicant needs to convince the interviewer, with data/experience that will stick. Expect that the interviewer will talk about the interview internally to someone else. The best way to know if you know something, and are on solid ground, is if you can describe or teach it to someone else. If the interviewer relates the interview to another, cracks can appear in relating it. Cracks are not good!
It's easy to make a decision to hire someone... and it's a mess to get rid of them if they don't work out. So there is a critical balance going on, or should be.
Though exempt at-will positions may lead someone to think that getting rid of people is easy, it isn't. The threat of lawsuits and possible bad press makes it a long, documented, hassled road. I know, I had to do it with some internal transfers that I "acquired". Those cases were really other managers taking the opportunity to dump their problems on others, saw the opportunity to do so, and dumped! The hiring managers made some poor hiring choices on some of these, regretted it, wanted to get rid of them without doing all the work and "looking like a bad guy". The take-away here, is if your not real sure about the applicant, pass. Nothing is 100%. Unfortunately, even some what appeared to be "good hires" do not pan out over time. So don't want to front-end load with problems!
A poor-interview situation -- A person I knew at a Megacorp had an adult son at home. He was going to school, slowly, Father was concerned about him. All his other kids were more self-starters. This one was very quiet and unassuming. Father asked me if I would be interested mock-interviewing his son. I said I would, after hours. Father got the paperwork filled out to get the son a visitors badge. I interviewed him, including giving a tour of my area. It was like a real interview, but unlike a real, others that worked for me did not interview him, and no one took him out to lunch. (Yes, lunch serves a purpose, with the right person taking the applicant out).
The problem was readily apparent - I knew (from outside) that he was a "good kid". He arrived with a suit, with proper demeanor, but was a quiet lump. I have no doubt that he listened well, but his constant quiet mannerisms did not give me any real positives that he would work out, not only with other people that he would directly work with, but to communicate with people he did not know in other parts of the company, needed to do the job. He was wallflower-ish. He never really asked any questions, not even when touring the labs. So, if this was a real interview, what incentive would I have to hire him? None.
When the mock interview was over, I (nicely) explained to him what I was looking for in an interview. He nodded his head. I gave him some pointers, some things to think about. He STILL did not ask any questions! His father never asked me anything about what I found. I think he was happy that I was willing to do it. I know for at least a few years later, his son was not working in his field, and still living at home. You can lead a horse to water...
I'm just scraping the surface here, just some high points. In many cases, I don't expect parents to be a good judge of what goes on. They are too close, and emotionally involved with the "applicant". Getting a truly impartial person with hiring experience involved to give feedback may help. Or it may not. Either way, don't argue with results from the person asked to do it!
In my career, I interviewed and hired many people, all professional people. From seniors in Universities nearing graduation, to people with a couple years experience, to experienced folks. I also participated, to a lesser extent, in helping hire people for areas that I did not have responsibility for.
My take from what information has been presented:
1) The applicant has chosen a field of study and occupational area that has a surplus of applicants.
2) Five years not in the position of really using the degree, equals staleness. I expect that most resume reviewers would pick someone with little to no time not in the field, especially starting out!
3) Good chance the applicant does not interview well.
FWIW, here are some interviewing and hiring considerations that I think are pretty common among professional positions:
A) Track record. For people who are graduating, have they even held a job before that they had to show up for work on time, get along with other people, and work for a boss?
For applicants after graduation, like a year or more later, what have they done in the time since graduating? If they have not been gainfully employed in their major, what and why? This is a major test!
B) Interviewing. Look at it from the interviewer's perspective - A Personnel Manager (many many years ago!) gave me a critical piece of advice: "Telly, don't hire a problem. If you think you need a problem, then develop one internally, if you're not doing that already
" But he was serious. An interview, even among multiple interviewers when the applicant is in, is the only look we get. If we have any doubts, it's best to pass. C) Advanced degree? Then advanced capabilities are expected. Not just a school promise of it because of the degree's letters. What can you do for us above and beyond a person with a Bachelors degree? Applicant needs to convince the interviewer, with data/experience that will stick. Expect that the interviewer will talk about the interview internally to someone else. The best way to know if you know something, and are on solid ground, is if you can describe or teach it to someone else. If the interviewer relates the interview to another, cracks can appear in relating it. Cracks are not good!
It's easy to make a decision to hire someone... and it's a mess to get rid of them if they don't work out. So there is a critical balance going on, or should be.
Though exempt at-will positions may lead someone to think that getting rid of people is easy, it isn't. The threat of lawsuits and possible bad press makes it a long, documented, hassled road. I know, I had to do it with some internal transfers that I "acquired". Those cases were really other managers taking the opportunity to dump their problems on others, saw the opportunity to do so, and dumped! The hiring managers made some poor hiring choices on some of these, regretted it, wanted to get rid of them without doing all the work and "looking like a bad guy". The take-away here, is if your not real sure about the applicant, pass. Nothing is 100%. Unfortunately, even some what appeared to be "good hires" do not pan out over time. So don't want to front-end load with problems!
A poor-interview situation -- A person I knew at a Megacorp had an adult son at home. He was going to school, slowly, Father was concerned about him. All his other kids were more self-starters. This one was very quiet and unassuming. Father asked me if I would be interested mock-interviewing his son. I said I would, after hours. Father got the paperwork filled out to get the son a visitors badge. I interviewed him, including giving a tour of my area. It was like a real interview, but unlike a real, others that worked for me did not interview him, and no one took him out to lunch. (Yes, lunch serves a purpose, with the right person taking the applicant out).
The problem was readily apparent - I knew (from outside) that he was a "good kid". He arrived with a suit, with proper demeanor, but was a quiet lump. I have no doubt that he listened well, but his constant quiet mannerisms did not give me any real positives that he would work out, not only with other people that he would directly work with, but to communicate with people he did not know in other parts of the company, needed to do the job. He was wallflower-ish. He never really asked any questions, not even when touring the labs. So, if this was a real interview, what incentive would I have to hire him? None.
When the mock interview was over, I (nicely) explained to him what I was looking for in an interview. He nodded his head. I gave him some pointers, some things to think about. He STILL did not ask any questions! His father never asked me anything about what I found. I think he was happy that I was willing to do it. I know for at least a few years later, his son was not working in his field, and still living at home. You can lead a horse to water...
I'm just scraping the surface here, just some high points. In many cases, I don't expect parents to be a good judge of what goes on. They are too close, and emotionally involved with the "applicant". Getting a truly impartial person with hiring experience involved to give feedback may help. Or it may not. Either way, don't argue with results from the person asked to do it!
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.) He went to college and got his music degree against my advice. but with my support as he was always serious & diligent about his music practice. This was painful to me, his NASA dad as he was really good at math & science. Amazingly AFAIK only 5% of those with a music degree get a job doing music. He has struggled and lived for 7 years after graduating in the same house from college days shared with other various students/struggling music/art/entertainment 'kids'. A couple years back his band did a week long road trip and after paying van rental, junk food costs and sleeping with friends and occasional cheap motel, they had all of $140 left. So I went to console him a bit and see that he is happy, really happy, seriously happy. Said it was so good he did not want to return. He works diligently ALL the time, gives lessons, plays in a Sunday church gig since it pays and doesn't conflict with band gigs. He plays weddings and anything he can get. He has a decent resume yet I know he only has medical coverage because of MediCal/medicaid. As a HS kid he was serious about music and would wake up and write music, stop along the road visiting his brother to write music. So I didn't want to squash his impulse but was hoping that he would channel his diligence into some better paying field. Now the good news, he has had a girl friend for 2+years and they plan to get married next year! And she is an intelligent, articulate attorney. Really grounded gal, told her dad to skip the wedding costs and make it a house deposit fund. They have survived COVID pandemic constraints, lived with her folks for 4 months, and Burning Man, I think this is going to work. As a trained musician in the LA area he can survive indefinitely, now the future is looking better from my (hopefully grandparent) perspective.
