Failure to launch adult children

[Lsbcal]

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This is getting very unhelpful and a bit hurtful. I was looking for new ideas and have received some great suggestions, including career work in another field. But this thread is degenerating into unhelpful criticism as many of our threads do.

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I have mostly just read your posts on this thread. When one posts about personal problems there will always be some posters that blame you (or your son). Comes with the territory unfortunately.

Last night we were talking with some friends and there was some mention of a young man that hadn't gotten far in the salary derby and he was in music. He made some extra money doing some form of mixing for other bands. Apparently with the pandemic, doing remote work for others in music is more accepted. Just a thought and sorry I cannot be more helpful.

BTW, DW always was interested in art but she does not want to be involved in shmuzing or really any business issues. First she worked as a book designer at a publishing company and did well. Then she worked as a freelancer and did OK but not a livable amount of money. Now she just does painting for pleasure and had many sales in an art gallery before it was turned into a men's clothing store.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

BTW, my wife always was interested in art but she does not want to be involved in shmuzing or really any business issues. She worked as a freelancer and did OK but not a livable amount of money. Now she just does painting for pleasure and had many sales in an art gallery before it was turned into a men's clothing store.

That's the thing about careers in the arts and humanities -- salesmanship is 75% of the gig starting out. Networking and schmoozing are vital, because if you don't know the right people, you aren't going to get ahead.

I worked for more than 15 years in journalism before landing a "destination" job. I was a poor self-promoter, and more driven, more extroverted colleagues moved up ahead of me before I finally caught up.

Teaching music is gonna be a sought-after job because it's a steady paycheck with bennies. Gigs in the arts with those attributes are few and far between.

The position I held before getting on the gravy train was not pleasant in many ways. I used to joke with the boss that he turned my hair gray. It was tough, but I think it convinced managers at the "destination" that I was capable.

If inner-city jobs are available, he might want to take a second look at those. A few years in the crucible might open some doors for him. And who knows, he may surprise himself and enjoy it there. The pay in a big-city school district isn't bad, either.

 

[edmund]

EW: I re-registered to reply! I myself stuck with a career 40 yrs ago with a lot of education and poor prospects (doctorate in humanities). Things worked out ok, but the job market is even tougher now. I cannot believe the quality of applicants for our rare job openings.
Music is even tougher. My music ed students are incredible--but there are so many! I think in music it looks ok to patch together a career with part-time gigs of various sorts. (That is NOT true for my field). Two anecdotes: friend's daughter (classical violin)-plays weddings, private students, teaches part time, things lead to other things. She is 35 or so.
Former colleague--patched together a bunch of stuff till he was close to 40. Then he got a tenure track job at my school. Two yrs later--his chair retired! He got it and now he is a dean somewhere else.
So your son looks fine. Everyone knows that music takes persistence and talent. Everyone knows how bad the market is. I would suggest that he get certified in teaching. Many states with shortages of teachers will let you teach while you work on certification.
My son did that after a low-level job at a school here. He loved it and got certified while still teaching.
My son is not in music btw. BUT--getting into a school can lead to other things. For instance, at his school, people who are regular teachers can do arts education after school, can create programs etc. As I said, things lead to other things.

Good luck to your son. The world needs artists!

 

[Dtail]

Psych..I would have to loved to major in it, even back in the day it was kind of accepted you pretty much needed a masters for a not very great paying job.



Poly Sci is another one that goes back in that vein.

Yeah spending close to pre med time in school without the doctor's pay scale.

 

[pacergal]

EWGal--
Both of my kids are in education, not high paying, but their passion (DD early ed, DS hs history and social studies)
DS has worked part time as a sub since graduating 4 years ago (second masters, went back as he realized he wanted to teach). He landed a permanent job that he really wanted this past winter, it also is part time, this fall will be 3/4 and work to full. He is in a private, non profit school for kids in recovery. It's a new school 2 years old, so still increasing capacity, thus all the teachers are part time for now. He loves it, and this is something he has been interested in doing for a long time!
My point is eventually, your son will find his dream job, as mine did.
If you and he are comfortable with your living and financial arrangements, that is all that matters. It allows him the time to get to that dream job.
The only thing I would add, is to contact interviewers afterwards, if he is Not offered a position and ask if they are wiling to give him constructive feedback as to why he wasn't chosen. I did that in my past, it can be hard to hear sometimes, but it offers you a chance to look at yourself, your work history and how you present yourself to see what could be changed or improved for the future.
Getting feedback from the actual interviewers after the fact can be more clear than those from coaches, classes, etc.

 

[SecondCor521]

I'll phrase these thoughts in the form of a series of questions, which I think might be more likely to be received:

Do you really think that President Truman (and the others you allude to) are representative of adult children living with their parents these days, or are they exceptions that prove a rule?

Why are you and your husband frustrated over your son's career? Have you read the Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud?

How many different reasons have you given for your son's lack of music career success in this thread? How many of these reasons are under his control and how many are not? What would you think of the proposition that you focus on the things you can control and let go of those which you cannot?

Do you think gifting him will be more or less likely to result in him moving out? Do you really honestly want him to move out or not? Really? Does the chapter on Economic Outpatient Care in The Millionaire Next Door apply here?

(Yes, these are pointed questions. No, I don't think they're likely to help. Yes, they might help.)

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Maybe your son could expand his search to other parts of the country / world? Our adult child in a do what you love, highly competitive field did a couple of gigs of Peace Corp type work in another country and even there did volunteer work on the side. It didn't pay much, but it was a help the planet kind of job and they are the super low overhead type so still saved money. That job experience, plus all the volunteer work on their resume, eventually helped them land a better paying management job back in the U.S. in their chosen field.

Could your son get a music teacher job teaching disadvantaged students somewhere with a nonprofit group or work in an under-privileged community with low pay and then leverage that to something in a better locale? Your son is lucky in that he has parents to help support him emotionally and financially, so really he is free to pursue any job anywhere on the planet that would help his resume, without having to worry about how to pay the rent or make payment on his student loans. The world is his oyster right now.


ETA: I see there's a group called Teachers Without Borders. Maybe some group like that would be a good place for more experience and references. Also Cal Newport has interesting career advice be "So Good They Can't Ignore You" - https://www.calnewport.com/books/so-good/

 

[Gumby]

All I can say is that life is long and he is young. He has time to try to make a living through music and then to try something else if that doesn't work out. I went to law school in my 30s and my young wife went back to school to become a teacher in her late 20s.

I do know a few people who are making a living in music, but they all have cobbled together a career out of many smaller jobs - part time school teaching at both public and private schools, church musician positions, private lessons and occasional paid performances. It seems really hard, but they appear to be making it.

 

[brett]

Have you considered that you may in fact be enabling your son?

Could be that some tough love and a paring down of the apron strings and the sympathy vote might be in order?

 

[tb001]

If he is uninterested in teaching music in inner cities or to kindergarten students, I think teaching in a school setting is a bit of a lost cause. By eliminating elementary school teaching alone, he has cut out a huge portion of positions in education. So now he’s targeting middle school/high school positions in more affluent areas, which seem unlikely to hire someone with his work history. Getting a foot in the door can make all the difference in the world and in a highly competitive industry I think you have to be willing to take anything that remotely looks acceptable to be able to move into the next position. You could easily be 10 yrs out before the ‘good’ job.

Most musicians I know are making their living doing private lessons, independently or through a Bach to Rock sort of franchise. If you wanted to ‘gift’ something like this, helping him get a franchise like this off the ground could be an interesting opportunity. Our children’s school just lost their long time music teacher and they’ve had a terrible time finding a replacement. But it’s pre-K through 6th grade and I don’t think full time. The teacher transitioned to giving full time private lessons. It will be interesting to see if his clientele stay the same now that kids are back in school full time.

On a personal note, I would have zero issues with my kids continuing to live at home, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want them to have full lives and careers they love! I hope our kids like us enough at that age to want to be around us! How lucky you are to be able to support him in a career he loves and have a good enough relationship to enjoy being together.

 

[bolt]

Have you considered that you may in fact be enabling your son?
Could be that some tough love and a paring down of the apron strings and the sympathy vote might be in order?

I agree wholeheartedly W/Bretts thinking EWG.
Near 10 I was advised I was 'expected' to be out of the house @18, in the armed service, or in FT structured educational pursuits & working to pay a subsidzed rent, somehow.
Everyone has challenges of their era.
I suspect your child* wants to remain your child*.

Consider these 2 timeless adages EWG!
I slightly modified Bogles quote.
1)John Bogle: "It's amazing how difficult it is for a man to understand something if he's paid a small fortune /or compensated with lifestyle / not to understand it.”

2) The more flexibility you have the less you need to know what happens next. -- Morgan Housel

I've seen many, many teachers teach multiple subjects.
As in, the history teacher also taught geography, art teacher taught music, etc.etc. below college level professors and such.
How much rent does DS contribute?
Work opportunites are out there.
Truths are truths, like it or not.

Good luck & Best wishes......

 

[KCGeezer]

DD is finishing her doctorate in voice. DSIL has his doctorate in clarinet. He’s been working at a liquor store and is their go to guy for beer decisions and is thinking about sommelier accreditation. Resumes are out but lately they’ve been talking about starting a venue. Private lessons, coffee shop/bar, and small venue for starving artists. Who knows if they’ll pull it off but more power to them I say.

My point EastWestgal, is it’s his life. You do what you can and just see how it plays out.

 

[Ready]

I lived through more than 50 years of watching my sister fail to launch and I’ve learned a few difficult life lessons going through the process. I’m only speaking about my personal experience here so I hope the OP will not view this as being critical of her situation.

My sister preferred to be taken care of. She had no desire to live on her own. She went through two failed marriages and then boomeranged back home for the rest of my parents lives.

My mother liked having her live at home because my Dad was not a great companion. My sister liked being taken care of. This created a codependent relationship that was not healthy for any of us.

I tried for years to get my sister to want to be independent. She viewed everything I said as critical and unhelpful. I also tried to get my Mother to understand that she was not helping my sister. I tried to explain the concept that necessity is the mother of invention. It was met with total resistance and deaf ears.

So the lessons I’ve learned here is I can’t make my sister want to be independent. She has to want it herself. And I can’t get my Mom to stop enabling this behavior because she will always be in denial that she is enabling undesirable behavior. So after many years of trying, I stopped giving advice and learned to accept that this is out of my control. And then I became at peace with it.

My parents have now both passed. My sister found a guy to live with who takes care of her now. I guess it works for both of them.

 

[Amethyst]

Sounds as if this lifestyle has worked for your sister for half a century, and is still working for her. People, for whatever reason, love to take care of her!

It also sounds as if you, her sibling, might be the only one who is bothered by it.

May I ask why it bothers you? Is she in danger of ending up a lonely pauper? From your description, it doesn't sound like it.

I lived through more than 50 years of watching my sister fail to launch and I’ve learned a few difficult life lessons going through the process. I’m only speaking about my personal experience here so I hope the OP will not view this as being critical of her situation.

My sister preferred to be taken care of. She had no desire to live on her own. She went through two failed marriages and then boomeranged back home for the rest of my parents lives.

My mother liked having her live at home because my Dad was not a great companion. My sister liked being taken care of. This created a codependent relationship that was not healthy for any of us.

I tried for years to get my sister to want to be independent. She viewed everything I said as critical and unhelpful. I also tried to get my Mother to understand that she was not helping my sister. I tried to explain the concept that necessity is the mother of invention. It was met with total resistance and deaf ears.

So the lessons I’ve learned here is I can’t make my sister want to be independent. She has to want it herself. And I can’t get my Mom to stop enabling this behavior because she will always be in denial that she is enabling undesirable behavior. So after many years of trying, I stopped giving advice and learned to accept that this is out of my control. And then I became at peace with it.

My parents have now both passed. My sister found a guy to live with who takes care of her now. I guess it works for both of them.

 

[EastWest Gal]

Have you considered that you may in fact be enabling your son?

Could be that some tough love and a paring down of the apron strings and the sympathy vote might be in order?

Tough love is a technique for dealing with irresponsible behavior. That’s not the case here. Working 6 mornings a week at one job and developing private clientele and playing in community band in the evenings, filling out job applications, going to the gym. Fun time gaming with a couple of friends once or twice a week. No bad behavior. Never yells.

 

[EastWest Gal]

DD is finishing her doctorate in voice. DSIL has his doctorate in clarinet. He’s been working at a liquor store and is their go to guy for beer decisions and is thinking about sommelier accreditation. Resumes are out but lately they’ve been talking about starting a venue. Private lessons, coffee shop/bar, and small venue for starving artists. Who knows if they’ll pull it off but more power to them I say.

My point EastWestgal, is it’s his life. You do what you can and just see how it plays out.

I agree. And the last few comments and resource suggestions were helpful. It is amazing to me that colleges don’t do more to support and develop better job boards to connect students with jobs. His college had an office staffed with a couple of people-for a university of 20,000 students.

I’ll give the info to him to look at.

And we’re not unhappy people. Just looking for ideas.

 

[Keim]

FWIW I think it is time to close thia thread down:
1. Options available to the son seem to have been well elaborated on.
2. EastWestGal mentioned that things were getting hurtful some time ago. And several "blunter" statements have come since.
3. People telling EWG they think she is an enabler arent doing any good. Enablers rarely recognize the behavior in themselves, making the commentary likely pointless.

Just my .02.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the interesting discussion.