Electric car battery life question

[joesxm3]

Insurance for my new Tesla Model Y is $1270/year in NJ where auto insurance tends to be expensive.

Which insurance company?

I have Travelers home owner and am stuck with them until I get a new roof. Arghh. I forgot that this year will probably be the new roof year.

Plus, I dropped $11,000 in 2021 and again in 2022 to have 30 dangerous trees cut down.

Boy I am bleeding money. Maybe I need an intervention?

Perhaps a new garage

 

[aja8888]

Which insurance company?

I have Travelers home owner and am stuck with them until I get a new roof. Arghh. I forgot that this year will probably be the new roof year.

Plus, I dropped $11,000 in 2021 and again in 2022 to have 30 dangerous trees cut down.

Boy I am bleeding money. Maybe I need an intervention?

Perhaps a new garage

The real questions to ask that poster are what are the details of that policy and what are the limits. Insurance policies can't be compared based on price unless all the coverages, exclusions, and deductibles are scrutinized.

 

[Alan]

Alan, that's an exciting opportunity to turn an idle resource into something that benefits many.

What incentive beyond altruism is offered to EV owners who participate? I read the article and it appears they could see substantial savings on charging costs but didn't understand all the terminology.

We get paid for what we export to the grid and the highest rates are usually between 4 and 8pm. The overnight rate we are on is 10p/kWh so charging at 10 and exporting at 20 to 30 or higher is a nice little earner. For 6 months of the year we generate excess electricity from our solar panels so capturing that for free during the peak hours and exporting it is also a nice bonus.

 

[REWahoo]

We get paid for what we export to the grid and the highest rates are usually between 4 and 8pm. The overnight rate we are on is 10p/kWh so charging at 10 and exporting at 20 to 30 or higher is a nice little earner. For 6 months of the year we generate excess electricity from our solar panels so capturing that for free during the peak hours and exporting it is also a nice bonus.

Nice!

Had you known of this income source in your future you might have retired a couple of years earlier!

 

[NW-Bound]

We get paid for what we export to the grid and the highest rates are usually between 4 and 8pm. The overnight rate we are on is 10p/kWh so charging at 10 and exporting at 20 to 30 or higher is a nice little earner. For 6 months of the year we generate excess electricity from our solar panels so capturing that for free during the peak hours and exporting it is also a nice bonus.

The US is behind many other countries in adopting many technology advances.

I wonder if it is because we have access to so much natural resource that we don't value and conserve it. Things are changing though. People have to change when they don't have something anymore that they take for granted.

 

[REWahoo]

The US is behind many other countries in adopting many technology advances.

I wonder if it is also because we have access to so much natural resource that we don't value and conserve it.

I think it is because the US is a huge area compared to the UK and power generation and distribution is done by no telling how many different companies. Getting them together on adopting technologies like Alan describes is similar to herding a huge gaggle of cats.

 

[audreyh1]

+1

My manual says the battery conditioning system works more aggressively when plugged in than on battery alone. Not sure why it does, but that's why I plan on keeping it plugged in the heat of summer.

We made it through last summer OK. The car does have some cabin overheat protection that it occasionally turns on.

 

[audreyh1]

We get paid for what we export to the grid and the highest rates are usually between 4 and 8pm. The overnight rate we are on is 10p/kWh so charging at 10 and exporting at 20 to 30 or higher is a nice little earner. For 6 months of the year we generate excess electricity from our solar panels so capturing that for free during the peak hours and exporting it is also a nice bonus.

Well that is pretty darn cool!

ETA: DH says that they are working on vehicle to grid here in the US.

 

[REWahoo]

We made it through last summer OK. The car does have some cabin overheat protection that it occasionally turns on.

Your Tesla's systems are far ahead of the systems on the Bolt, another example of 'you get what you pay for'.

My west facing garage gets super hot in the summer and I'm interested to see how much battery conditioning takes place when the temps here hit 100+ for days on end.

 

[NW-Bound]

I think it is because the US is a huge area compared to the UK and power generation and distribution is done by no telling how many different companies. Getting them together on adopting technologies like Alan describes is similar to herding a huge gaggle of cats.

I think it's more because people in the US take more things for granted, and don't want to make any reduction in lifestyle unless it is absolutely necessary.

But then, I realize I just show how people are just the same when I also remember talking with an Hungarian or Czech immigrant here in the US who was doing the flooring for my sister. He was proud of his humongous pickup truck parked in front. I am sure it was not easy to get such a gas guzzler in his native country.

 

[joesxm3]

My garage is under the house with an oil boiler in the garage.

Just thought to ask if the lithium batteries give off any fumes that might be flamable?

The winter temperature in the garage is never below 50 and summer pretty much stays under 80. Would battery conditioning kick in in that range?

 

[ERD50]

Thanks. So, we should be doing the same for iPhones and iPad? Trying to keep it in the 30% - 80% charged range? I have always gone from fully charged to very low, but also notice that my batteries start losing capacity pretty early, within 2 years of purchase, which IMO isn’t long.

sorry - don’t want to hijack

I don't have time now to quote the other replies to this, but...

There was a long thread on this a few years back. T-Al was trying to keep his laptop from sitting at 100% charge overnight, for the reasons stated in this thread - a lithium battery doesn't 'like' sitting for extended periods at near 100% charge levels (no, I don't understand the underlying chemistry, but I accept that this is the case).

I pointed this out to him then, and will repeat now. Some devices have a mode to limit charging to something less than 100% (typically 80%). This is different than just manually charging to 80% and then shutting off/disconnecting the charger (which is what T-Al did with a timer).

The difference is, when the device is set to stop charging at 80%, it then powers the device from the charger, not the battery. So there is no discharge of the battery. So no discharge/charge cycle is added. When T-Al did this with a timer, he set it so it would drop to around 80% at the end of the evening (shutting charger off maybe 20 minutes before he shut the device down for the night). But then, it would just charge up again in the morning, adding another daily partial charge/discharge cycle (which also has a degradation effect). And it's not clear which was worse, the added charge/discharge, or the sitting at 100%. But it wasn't all gravy, doing it the way he did.

My ASUS laptop can be set to charge to just 80% (or 60%), so I use the 80%. I use it as a 'desktop' so it rarely ever goes through a charge cycle, other than replenishing self-discharge.

Bottom line - the "charge to XX%" is a good thing. Teslas have this feature, (and probably other EVs?).

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

Your Tesla's systems are far ahead of the systems on the Bolt, another example of 'you get what you pay for'.

My west facing garage gets super hot in the summer and I'm interested to see how much battery conditioning takes place when the temps here hit 100+ for days on end.

I’m parked outside at home, but I do have overhead cover even if it’s 16+ foot up there. We usually have a mostly shady spot to park. Still you know we get plenty of 100+ days. The cabin overheat protection mostly happens when parked in a parking lot full sun. I think it mostly opens a damper allowing fresh air flow.

There is also “dog mode” and “camp mode” neither of which we use.

 

[audreyh1]

My garage is under the house with an oil boiler in the garage.

Just thought to ask if the lithium batteries give off any fumes that might be flamable?

The winter temperature in the garage is never below 50 and summer pretty much stays under 80. Would battery conditioning kick in in that range?

No.

And that is an easy temperature range for the battery so no conditioning needed.

 

[NW-Bound]

My garage is under the house with an oil boiler in the garage.

Just thought to ask if the lithium batteries give off any fumes that might be flamable?

A lithium cell is sealed closed and does not emit gases.

But occasionally, due to some manufacturing defects either in the cells or the associated electronics, an EV may catch on fire while "unprovoked", meaning the fire was not caused by an accident. And sometimes the car was not even being charged and just parked there. And the fire would be furious.

There have been some incidences involving different EVs. And manufacturers promised to investigate, but I never saw any published report. Perhaps it would contain too much proprietary data that could not be shared with the public.

 

[mpeirce]

Thanks. So, we should be doing the same for iPhones and iPad?

There is an “optimized charging” mode available on iPhones.

It looks at your usage patterns and tries to minimize how long your phone is at 100%, but also let it come to 100% just as you start using it so that you can use it all day.

More info at https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210512

 

[joesxm3]

Just want to thank everyone participating in this discussion.

 

[Chuckanut]

IIRC, the computer that controls the charging on my hybrid already keeps the battery in the area of 20% to 80% of its capacity. It does that so as to avoid the stress of changing to 100% and then draining to near zero %. That’s how they get a nice long life on the battery.

I assume as the battery does age they will charge somewhat closer to 100% to keep the driving range up. But, I don’t know that for a fact.

 

[Chuckanut]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/0...nt-system-could-boost-ev-range-by-20-percent/

The new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries offer some nice features that may change things. Among the advantages - they are much less likely to catch fire.

“LFP cells dislike very cold weather more than an equivalent NMC or nickel-cobalt aluminum cell, and they also store less energy. But that last bit might in fact be an advantage to this chemistry—there's no danger that an LFP pack will combust or explode in a crash, so there's much less need to surround the pack with a heavy protective shell.

That in turn means that while the cells are less energy-dense, energy density at the pack level actually increases because more of the volume is given over to battery cells instead of crash structures. LFP batteries also have longer useful lifetimes than NMC or NCA packs. LFP cells were about 20 percent cheaper per kWh than NMC cells in 2022.”

 

[joesxm3]

Yeah. I thought to buy the model 3 to get those batteries, but wanted AWD and felt that model Y would be a better built car with the two huge body parts. I would have liked structural battery pack but that is not readily available.

 

[NW-Bound]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/0...nt-system-could-boost-ev-range-by-20-percent/

The new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries offer some nice features that may change things. Among the advantages - they are much less likely to catch fire.

“LFP cells dislike very cold weather more than an equivalent NMC or nickel-cobalt aluminum cell, and they also store less energy. But that last bit might in fact be an advantage to this chemistry—there's no danger that an LFP pack will combust or explode in a crash, so there's much less need to surround the pack with a heavy protective shell.

That in turn means that while the cells are less energy-dense, energy density at the pack level actually increases because more of the volume is given over to battery cells instead of crash structures. LFP batteries also have longer useful lifetimes than NMC or NCA packs. LFP cells were about 20 percent cheaper per kWh than NMC cells in 2022.”

The above facts are well-known.

Chinese makers have been going gunho on LFP cells in EV cars, on semi trucks, and buses, and also for energy storage.

Why Western makers not follow suit? One thing is that LFP cells are heavier, and that cut down on the vehicle range. But another thing I found was that due to some patent things, LFP cells used outside of China had to incur a licensing fee that made them not cost competitive. However, this is changing.

An older, cheaper and safer battery technology already dominating China’s electric vehicle industry is now poised to reshape battery manufacturing worldwide and boost EV sales in the United States — if the global lithium supply remains stable.

A slew of patents for lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) chemistries due to expire in 2022 could shift the face of battery production in the U.S. and Europe.

China has owned the market for nearly a decade due to an agreement with patent holders — a consortium of universities in the U.S. and Canada — that let Chinese manufacturers use them to supply local markets. Meanwhile, manufacturers outside China have focused on developing other lithium-ion chemistries to power their EVs because their higher energy density translates into longer range on the road.

 

[REWahoo]

Bottom line - the "charge to XX%" is a good thing. Teslas have this feature, (and probably other EVs?).

Yes, my EV can be set to limit the charge anywhere from 5% to 100%, in 5% increments. I think all EVs have charge limiting software.

 

[Alan]

Nice!

Had you known of this income source in your future you might have retired a couple of years earlier!

I wish

I think it is because the US is a huge area compared to the UK and power generation and distribution is done by no telling how many different companies. Getting them together on adopting technologies like Alan describes is similar to herding a huge gaggle of cats.

Geographical, England (not the UK) will fit into Texas 8 times over so much shorter transmission lines for about 44 million of the population of England.

There are lots of generating companies, dozens of energy companies and a grid system to deliver the power. The UK National Grid plc is one of the largest investor-owned utility companies in the world; it has a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange where it is a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index, and a secondary listing in the form of its American depositary receipts on the New York Stock Exchange.

Above all this is a regulatory body that sets the rules. I expect something similar exists in each of the 50 US States.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/

Ofgem is Great Britain’s independent energy regulator.

We work to protect energy consumers, especially vulnerable people, by ensuring they are treated fairly and benefit from a cleaner, greener environment.

We are responsible for:

working with government, industry and consumer groups to deliver a net-zero economy, at the lowest cost to consumers
stamping out sharp and bad practice, ensuring fair treatment for all consumers, especially the vulnerable
enabling competition and innovation, which drives down prices and results in new products and services for consumers.

 

[audreyh1]

I think it is because the US is a huge area compared to the UK and power generation and distribution is done by no telling how many different companies. Getting them together on adopting technologies like Alan describes is similar to herding a huge gaggle of cats.

I wish

Geographical, England (not the UK) will fit into Texas 8 times over so much shorter transmission lines for about 44 million of the population of England.

There are lots of generating companies, dozens of energy companies and a grid system to deliver the power. The UK National Grid plc is one of the largest investor-owned utility companies in the world; it has a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange where it is a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index, and a secondary listing in the form of its American depositary receipts on the New York Stock Exchange.

Above all this is a regulatory body that sets the rules. I expect something similar exists in each of the 50 US States.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/

Still, energy providers are regional. So I don’t see why it couldn’t start to be used in parts of the US.

Tesla is an energy technology company, they don’t just build cars. DH says the Tesla cars are capable but it’s not enabled yet.

 

[RobLJ]

I don't have time now to quote the other replies to this, but...

Bottom line - the "charge to XX%" is a good thing. Teslas have this feature, (and probably other EVs?).

-ERD50

My Bolt has this feature as well as a set time to leave (it charges and preps battery for leaving at a particular time).
I keep the Bolt outside since the RAV Prime is in the garage. I've been charging the Bolt to 80% and recharging at anywhere from 50% to 70% from max. After the warranty battery replacement last January, to the best I can figure I've lost less then 1% of maximum charge. I've only run it below 10% of charge twice.