are home generators going to be unavoidable in the future?

[mpeirce]

The IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) disagrees with that and is advocating just the opposite.

I'm not a EE, but I started as one in college, so I'm probably just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous

I find it hard to believe that "harden our electric infrastructure" would be argued against.

Microgrids are interesting, but are far from proven over a wide and varied geography. Work on it, sure, try to switch the entire infrastructure of the US to it "soon", sounds ridiculous.

Personally, I'd benefit from this as we have a nice reliable nuclear plant in "my neighborhood". But further away it might be problematic - here in northern Ohio we had six weeks this winter with virtually no direct sun. Tough to generate solar power in those conditions.

 

[Music Lover]

I'm not a EE, but I started as one in college, so I'm probably just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous

I find it hard to believe that "harden our electric infrastructure" would be argued against.

I'm not surprised that it's argued against, but that position is political not scientific.

 

[ERD50]

I'm not a EE, but I started as one in college, so I'm probably just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous

I find it hard to believe that "harden our electric infrastructure" would be argued against.
....

I'd rephrase that - they are not arguing against hardening the grid, but rather that there are more viable alternatives to accomplish the same thing (maybe better). Just a different approach to the problem.

-ERD50

 

[Spock]

I'm not a EE, but I started as one in college, so I'm probably just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous

I find it hard to believe that "harden our electric infrastructure" would be argued against.

Microgrids are interesting, but are far from proven over a wide and varied geography. Work on it, sure, try to switch the entire infrastructure of the US to it "soon", sounds ridiculous.

Personally, I'd benefit from this as we have a nice reliable nuclear plant in "my neighborhood". But further away it might be problematic - here in northern Ohio we had six weeks this winter with virtually no direct sun. Tough to generate solar power in those conditions.

Not really any different than decarbonize 95% of generation capacity "soon". But then you did say "sounds ridiculous".
From a practicality standpoint the same magnitude of scale (time and $) would be required to harden existing as it would be to do the distributed micro-grids. People will move pretty dang quick to implement their micro-grids as their lights flicker and HVAC stops working.

 

[Music Lover]

Not really any different than decarbonize 95% of generation capacity "soon". But then you did say "sounds ridiculous".
From a practicality standpoint the same magnitude of scale (time and $) would be required to harden existing as it would be to do the distributed micro-grids. People will move pretty dang quick to implement their micro-grids as their lights flicker and HVAC stops working.

Many of us live in areas where power is very reliable, and other than in extreme situations like natural disasters there's no reason for anyone to have unreliable power.

You can pay for unreliable power and a backup system, or you can just pay for reliable power.

 

[Spock]

Many of us live in areas where power is very reliable, and other than in extreme situations like natural disasters there's no reason for anyone to have unreliable power.

You can pay for unreliable power and a backup system, or you can just pay for reliable power.

You left out the path we are on: "you can pay for decarbonization and get unreliable power".

I can't control the reliability of the current or future grid any more than I can influence the climate change agenda that is going to further destabilize grid reliability. Prior to this spring I was going to install solar+battery and let the grid do whatever. Now I'm at the 45ish degrees North latitude and the only approved option of solar is not viable.
I suppose I could try to adapt a tri-fuel portable generator to run on ethanol. Or pay big bucks for a (bio) diesel. But the drive is to obsolete all internal combustion engines regardless of fuel source so the availability of fuel becomes secondary to a source of spare parts.

I'm frequently reminded of a long ago PBS documentary of a western power engineer in Eastern Europe (after the Balkan wars?) that was hired to advise on reconstructing their power grid. A side trip in the show was how the engineer had to rig a car battery in his apartment onto a charger/inverter so it would charge off the wall outlet. It would charge the car batt whenever power was sporadically available and be able to charge his phone at night when he got home.
I'll probably do something with a Ford Lightning and a V2H setup.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

As I sit through the third power outage in the past two weeks, I think of one of those communities I mentioned up-post with municipally owned utilities.
Here is a one page summary of how one of them approached the reliability issue.


https://www.cityofredding.org/departments/redding-electric-utility/reu-pages/reu-s-history


The smaller thermal storage project -


https://www.tdworld.com/distributed...964822/distributed-energy-at-the-speed-of-ice

 

[MichaelB]

I guess power is reliable until it isn’t. We’ve lived at this address for more than 15 years, and the power has failed twice. Once 3 weeks ago, the second time last night. The loss 3 weeks ago was worrisome because it happened during a heavy rainstorm which took our sump pumps offline for about 6 hours. We have a battery backup pump which kicked in an saved the day, but just barely.

 

[Car-Guy]

^^^^
Interesting you say, it's reliable until it's not.

For the ~15 years we have lived here, we have grown accustomed to power outages. I honestly don't know how many outages we have had in that time but it has to be over 100. Rarely more than a few hours each time but pretty frequent. We have surge protectors and UPS's strategically placed throughout the house for protection and they "seemed" to have served us well.

About a year ago the electrical co-op in our area switched our electrical service from one sub-station to another one. Probably 30% closer to our house. Since then the number of outages have dropped dramatically. So in our case, things are getting better.

Matter of fact, I need to begin a process of starting the generator(s) occasionally and running them for a few minutes every few months since we haven't been using them as often. It's always something.

 

[folivier]

I've mentioned this before but in south Louisiana our ground water is so high that the new power poles rot just below the ground surface. Back when we could use creosote poles there wasn't a problem. Now whenever a hurricane storm blows through all of the newer "green" poles snap just below the ground. Almost all of our power lines are above ground. So it takes weeks to replace all of these and get power fully restored. That's why so many people have generators in our area. Not for a few hours of power outage but for the weeks after a storm. Now do I have a generator? No because I'm out of Louisiana for hurricane season.

 

[ERD50]

I've mentioned this before but in south Louisiana our ground water is so high that the new power poles rot just below the ground surface. Back when we could use creosote poles there wasn't a problem. Now whenever a hurricane storm blows through all of the newer "green" poles snap just below the ground. ....

I'm surprised there isn't a material they could apply to address this. Yes, in the low/swampy spots on our farm, old wood fence posts rotted right near the surface, that's where the moisture and exposure to the elements is just right for decay.

I would think that coating 3 or 4 feet of the pole with PVC or something would go a long way. I wonder why something like this hasn't been done? PVC would be pretty inert, wouldn't leach out or be a long term problem for the local environment, it's already buried all over the place.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

I'm surprised there isn't a material they could apply to address this. Yes, in the low/swampy spots on our farm, old wood fence posts rotted right near the surface, that's where the moisture and exposure to the elements is just right for decay.

I would think that coating 3 or 4 feet of the pole with PVC or something would go a long way. I wonder why something like this hasn't been done? PVC would be pretty inert, wouldn't leach out or be a long term problem for the local environment, it's already buried all over the place.

-ERD50

You could always sink the pole in a concrete footing with concrete all the way to ground level.

 

[Rustic23]

We have lived in our current location for 18 years. Two hurricanes, Rita, and Ike, caused major outage. We learned that it takes two weeks to get power restored due to our place on the priority list. We have had enough short outages, less than a couple of hours, to have lost track of the number. There is very good communications with the power co-op, so we have a good idea of time planning.

We both still drive, and our backup plan for a long one is to empty the fridge/freezer, shut everything off, except routers, and leave. I figure two weeks in a motel, less than 5k. So we can do this four times and break even. So far we have not done it once.

Question of generators. How long can you run them, and what are the maintance cost long term. Getting propane does not seem to be a problem as we have a 500 gal tank already. Just not sure we could run a generator 24/7 for two weeks.

 

[Car-Guy]

Question of generators. How long can you run them, and what are the maintance cost long term. Getting propane does not seem to be a problem as we have a 500 gal tank already. Just not sure we could run a generator 24/7 for two weeks.

That's part if the reason I have two large portables on wheels. I can shut one down for refueling and/or mtce while the other takes over the load. As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, mine are over 15 years old and I just change the oil yearly, add gas and they are ready to go. Zero problems,..... So far.

I've never had to do it, but I guess I could keep alternating them for a two week period if needed.

 

[Music Lover]

Do you really have to run a generator 24/7? Fridges and freezers hold the temperature fairly well if they're not being repeatedly opened, you don't need lights during the day. I'm sure that appropriate cycling works fine.

 

[folivier]

This is a conversation I've had a few years back with a couple of manufacturers. I would like a programmable timer so that if I'm not home the generator would come on for a couple hours. Then shut off for 3-4 hours, then rinse and repeat. This would keep my fridge and freezer cold and run the AC system to keep the humidity down. But none of them were interested. I could build my own timer system using relays to simulate electricity coming on and off to trigger the relays to start and stop the generator. Or program a simple Arduino or similar.
But we're never there during hurricane season so I've never pursued this.
BTW a natural gas or propane generator will run much cleaner than gasoline. So oil changes could be extended much longer.

 

[Surewhitey]

Question of generators. How long can you run them, and what are the maintance cost long term. Getting propane does not seem to be a problem as we have a 500 gal tank already. Just not sure we could run a generator 24/7 for two weeks.

I've heard only shutting down to change oil so many hours & you're good to go for up to 500 hours. I would imagine the load & general conditions play a part. Also nat gas & propane are likely less stressing on the generator. Pretty sure portables are less continuous than permanent, whole house units...

 

[Car-Guy]

Do you really have to run a generator 24/7? Fridges and freezers hold the temperature fairly well if they're not being repeatedly opened, you don't need lights during the day. I'm sure that appropriate cycling works fine.

Around here you need them for Air Conditioning,,,,, just about all the time.

 

[stephenson]

This thread gets better and better

Quick vignette - while living in Northern Virginia, within a couple miles of Burke, VA, we had more power outages that anywhere we have ever lived - 14 locations. Two reasons - one was the occasional hurricane that downed huge trees (12 days longest), and the second was squirrels. Funny you say? Squirrels would jump over the fuses on the tops of the pole in front of our house thousands of time - except - occasionally one would not make a clean jump - BAM! Could hear it 300 feet away. Power company arrived in a few hours and removed and replaced the fuse.

Both of these circumstances could be mitigated by burying the lines - but, it was an older neighborhood and not common for another few years. Burying the lines anywhere assists (hardening), but power companies - like ours - provided a dead refusal - rationale: cheaper to repair when damage occurs.

Power grids spanning a continent can be enhanced and protected by a bit of hardening, various bits of large scale oil/gas burning, wind and solar. Residential and small business solar also is a no-brainer in some areas - lots of areas, actually. Using electric cars as backup instead of generators is a no-brainer that is coming. Coordinating and organizing processes to spread the stresses is always warranted.

While I know less about it, catalytic exhaust systems on home generators should be helpful in reducing emissions - and, I don't think this would be the end of the world.

 

[H2ODude]

Over the 25 years we’ve lived in this house in NC Piedmont we only rarely had interruptions. Subdivision is underground and I know where our substation is. Figured I could live with the rare 4-6 hour outage. Then I got a saltwater aquarium and got a little portable that would keep the fish and corals happy and the refrigerator running. Then we had a really cold spell before Christmas.

Turns out Duke Power said we would be subject to 15-20 minute rolling blackouts. OK. Then that rolling blackout went for about 6-7 hours, continuous. No weather problems here except cold, and according to media they were moving power “up north” because of shortages there. That was pretty alarming, that now the system that we were a part of was not able to keep up with demand. Got damn cold in our house and I started to look at alternatives. DW has Alzheimer’s and keeping her comfortable will get more and more important.

I’m a DIY person, wired several houses and additions. Looked a putting in a transfer switch just for the furnace, but that meant getting a 220v generator. A lot of, “but if I spend this much more I can ….” And so on. More gas to store, the transfer switch would be on other side of house from garage.

In the end it was just F it. My kids will inherit a bunch in any event. So $13k later I have a 24kw natural gas powered genset that tests itself every other week. I have a heat pump and two nat gas/ac gas packs. They’re all wired up so they won’t try to start simultaneously and can therefor all work for heat or ac. My neighbors all thank me because it will assure our street is unlikely ever to suffer power interruption again. And I’m OK with that.

 

[Texas Proud]

We have lived in our current location for 18 years. Two hurricanes, Rita, and Ike, caused major outage. We learned that it takes two weeks to get power restored due to our place on the priority list. We have had enough short outages, less than a couple of hours, to have lost track of the number. There is very good communications with the power co-op, so we have a good idea of time planning.

We both still drive, and our backup plan for a long one is to empty the fridge/freezer, shut everything off, except routers, and leave. I figure two weeks in a motel, less than 5k. So we can do this four times and break even. So far we have not done it once.

Question of generators. How long can you run them, and what are the maintance cost long term. Getting propane does not seem to be a problem as we have a 500 gal tank already. Just not sure we could run a generator 24/7 for two weeks.

The number is all over the place... I have heard you should let it 'rest' an hour every 24 hours... but have also read it can go 7 days easily....


I do remember reading somewhere they are rated for 3,000 hours... that is 125 days... that is a LOT of downtime...


I forget the cost of maintenance... in the range of $200 to $300 a year... but if you want to do it yourself it is not that expensive... and oil change with filter every year and an air filter.. battery every 2 or 3 years from what I read.. have not had mine long enough to know..

 

[Texas Proud]

This is a conversation I've had a few years back with a couple of manufacturers. I would like a programmable timer so that if I'm not home the generator would come on for a couple hours. Then shut off for 3-4 hours, then rinse and repeat. This would keep my fridge and freezer cold and run the AC system to keep the humidity down. But none of them were interested. I could build my own timer system using relays to simulate electricity coming on and off to trigger the relays to start and stop the generator. Or program a simple Arduino or similar.
But we're never there during hurricane season so I've never pursued this.
BTW a natural gas or propane generator will run much cleaner than gasoline. So oil changes could be extended much longer.

I think you can get an app so you can shut it off yourself... not sure of this but I think so.. but to buy a monitoring device though..

 

[NW-Bound]

For the ~15 years we have lived here, we have grown accustomed to power outages. I honestly don't know how many outages we have had in that time but it has to be over 100. Rarely more than a few hours each time but pretty frequent...

Around here you need them for Air Conditioning,,,,, just about all the time.

I am one who would be miserable without AC. We don't have outages often, but for people who do, how would you know how long the outage will last?

If you have a whole house generator with an auto transfer switch, it's no big deal. But if you need to drag out and set up a portable generator, what if you wait for an hour or so before you get off your butt to do it, then shortly after that the power comes back on?

A battery backup will work well for frequent outages. And if it looks like the power outage will last a while, you then set up the generator to feed the battery.

PS. A 14-kWh battery backup now costs $4K. Add a 6-kW inverter for $1K, and you can run the fridge and a couple of mini-splits ACs and lighting with ease. Most inverters have a built-in transfer switch, and can be wired permanently to your home the same way as you do a whole-house generator. To charge the battery in the case of long outages, a $500 portable generator will do.

In contrast with a whole-house generator that takes tens of seconds to come online, an inverter switches on instantly. The transfer takes place in milliseconds, just like the smaller UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) that is commonly used to keep PCs working.

 

[Turbo29]

Here in Phoenix, we do not have weather related problems that take out power as in other areas of the US. The utility has this to say on my Web account.



In both cases, my home was already running on solar power, and I only knew there was an outage when I tried to turn on the light in the living room whose circuit I intentionally left on the grid.

Still, both the two large utilities here made a public statement last year that there might be a chance of demand exceeding supply in the summer of 2024. My solar set up is providing about 45 kWh/day in the summer, while I use about 65-75 kWh/day when the high is 110+F. The balance comes from the grid. My battery runs out of juice at about 10-11PM. If the high is under 100F, the ACs don't work as hard and I can be off-grid 24/7.

If the grid ever gets down for long periods which is not likely, I can shut down one AC, the water heater, and the pool pump, and try to live within the 45 kWh/day that the solar system gives me.

Still, being a suspender+belt kind of guy, I have a 2-kW portable inverter generator, plus a 4-kW Onan generator in my class C motorhome.

Thanks, I didn't know they had those stats on their site. Mine says:

99.97% service reliability

Your service address has experienced 3 outages in 36 months for a total of 6h 20m.
Wed, Jun 16, 2021
3h 39m duration
The outage was caused by an electrical equipment failure.
Fri, Oct 2, 2020
1h 8m duration
The outage was caused by an object making contact with a power line.
Sat, Sep 26, 2020
1h 32m duration
The outage was caused by an object making contact with a power line.

 

[ownyourfuture]

are home generators going to be unavoidable in the future?

As someone who owns a fairly small amount of Generac in my taxable/IRA/HSA accounts, hoping the answer is yes.